DD #305 - Video Card Survey

[FTC_Derplo]

Nvidia GTX 970 (4GB VRAM) here, still runs great

[Skinny_Huesudo]

GTX 960 2GB owner. Can't upgrade any time soon. Game runs well at medium-high settings, 1080p no VR. Biggest bottleneck currently is old CPU, slowing things down when many AI units are present and fighting. But that also happened on ROF many years ago though.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Skinny_Huesudo

[Denum]

1 hour ago, Majpalmer said:

I wish they had also asked:

 

Do you play with TrackIR or equivalent?

 

Do you play with VR? 

 

I use TRackIr, and it doesn't seem to impact anything, at least noticeably. 

 

But I've read, seen, and been told that VR does impact performance. 

 

I'd really like to know what percentage are flying VR.

 

 

TrackIR has zero impact on framerate unless you're using a dinosaur of a PC. 

VR has to do the game images twice at a pretty high resolution. Huge impact. Like even with a 3090 you'd struggle to have the same experience as someone at 1440P. 

[Tendo]

Well it seems I have to play as much as possible before the big change arrives

Edited January 29, 2022 by TheDhemit
grammar

[Adder***]

But But ...we just got a new manual

 

[Donik]

RTX 3080.  Non-VR. Ultrawide user here. I'll take all the eye candy or increased plane count that you can throw at me.  Plenty of overhead to spare. 

 

As far as hardware support goes, I personally wouldn't expect to see support for most stuff that was 8+ years old.  People running on fairly old hardware really need to think about upgrading.

[Denum]

1 hour ago, Crockett said:

If I need to update my video card, I'll also have to get a new motherboard and memory because my old motherboard has the best video card I can put in it. I feel we need to have the option to update the game -- or play as is -- so we don't need to update our hardware! I've put a lot of money into this sim so far and I'd hate not to be able to fly because I can't afford to update my whole computer at this time!

Doubt it would be that much of a change. 

Just instead of playing on Medium you might be on low

[ECV56_Sleeder72]

AMD R7 370. 2GB ?

[Redwo1f]

53 minutes ago, Donik said:

 

 

As far as hardware support goes, I personally wouldn't expect to see support for most stuff that was 8+ years old.  People running on fairly old hardware really need to think about upgrading.

 

Well that may be good and true --- but I think the legal issue would be taking a product that a consumer already purchased, owns, and worked - and changing that said product on the consumer so, in some cases, may not work (or at a reduced capacity). This without their consent.

 

That's the issue.

 

...and this could come into play with the integrated/connected system GBS uses. It would be fine and dandy if said changes only impact products going forward, but if backward changes rendered to already purchased  games were detrimental to certain consumers, then that could potentially become a red herring (sort-of-speak).

 

Think of it this way - you won't be too happy if a car dealership seized the car you bought 3 years ago, upgraded the engine, stereo, seat covers, and put on fancy wheels, then forced you to pay to get it back.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but it is a relevant consumer issue - but of course it depends upon what exactly the team has in mind and how drastic a change/requirement there ultimately is - and I know I presented more of an overkill situation, but it is most definitely something that needs to be considered.

 

And I know I would myself be pretty pissed off if I bought, say, Moscow, and it was working reasonably okay on my system and I really enjoyed it...but then some significant change was done to the series, a big patch was released that was beyond my control to stop and that applied itself to my game, making it so it didn't work well at all anymore.

That really wouldn't be fair.

 

I think that if it is a fairly significant change in requirements, they most certainly need to offer some sort of opt-out (and state freeze) for those who have low end systems and wish to make that choice.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Redwo1f

[-Ger-oldsql]

For a flight sim, Great Battles now looks really fantastic. Especially the new cloud system was a big step forward. Nevertheless, I would like to take a step into the future in other areas as well.

 

My dream wish list:

1) I miss the old ricochet smoke trails from ground attacks. In addition, especially small-caliber impacts on the ground hardly come into their own on a 2D monitor. In original old black and white videos you can even see the firing line of the impacts. Unfortunately not on a high-resolution monitor of the player.

 

2) Better water representation and higher resolution of water reflections.

 

3) Higher draw distance from grass.

 

4) nvidia freestyle support

[Dave]

I understand not everyone can afford bleeding edge hardware. In Australia PC components are even more expensive than in Europe or North America and availability lags the northern hemisphere by about 12 months.

 

But trying to provide high fidelity visuals on a supported OS version while also supporting 10 year old hardware the manufacturer doesn’t even provide updates for anymore is an almost impossible task. BoX already can’t take advantage of available performance gains using DX12 or Nvidia-specific VR acceleration for fear of losing the luddites or AMD users. The hardware API support that game devs need in order to provide some enhancements is less about raw horsepower and more to do with GPU generational capability. For the cash strapped this could mean just moving to a 10xx series card - it doesn’t need to be a 1080Ti. The prices are extreme at the top end but just buying a lower stepping GPU from a recent generation can give you 80% of the performance at 40% of the price. If you are still using a GTX 6 or 7 series GPU you could buy a huge performance upgrade for less than AU$100.

Software developers have to draw a line somewhere in backward compatibility and in my experience as a software developer 1CGS have to date been exceedingly generous in their support for antique hardware - much more so thatn any company I have ever worked for.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Dave

[ITAF_Airone1989]

11 minutes ago, Dave said:

In Australia PC components are even more expensive than in Europe or North America..

Really? 

I guess cause they have to work upsidedown

Edited January 29, 2022 by ITAF_Airone1989

[Dave]

2 hours ago, Redwo1f said:

 

Well that may be good and true --- but I think the legal issue would be taking a product that a consumer already purchased, owns, and worked - and changing that said product on the consumer so, in some cases, may not work (or at a reduced capacity). This without their consent.

 

That's the issue.

 

...and this could come into play with the integrated/connected system GBS uses. It would be fine and dandy if said changes only impact products going forward, but if backward changes rendered to already purchased  games were detrimental to certain consumers, then that could potentially become a red herring (sort-of-speak).

 

Think of it this way - you won't be too happy if a car dealership seized the car you bought 3 years ago, upgraded the engine, stereo, seat covers, and put on fancy wheels, then forced you to pay to get it back.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but it is a relevant consumer issue - but of course it depends upon what exactly the team has in mind and how drastic a change/requirement there ultimately is - and I know I presented more of an overkill situation, but it is most definitely something that needs to be considered.

 

And I know I would myself be pretty pissed off if I bought, say, Moscow, and it was working reasonably okay on my system and I really enjoyed it...but then some significant change was done to the series, a big patch was released that was beyond my control to stop and that applied itself to my game, making it so it didn't work well at all anymore.

That really wouldn't be fair.

 

I think that if it is a fairly significant change in requirements, they most certainly need to offer some sort of opt-out (and state freeze) for those who have low end systems and wish to make that choice.

Except that the car analogy isn’t even close.

Software vendors aren’t even obliged to provide updates at all, only that the software is fit for the purpose for which it was sold at the time it was sold. They do provide updated to retain customers and add new features to remain competitive and entice new business. They can’t continue to lose ground and business to competitors because a handful of people never want to upgarde their computer ever again - those people are generally able to forego updates and accept any resulting consequences. One caveat here is that the user must be allowed the option to not update.

 

Any customer that bought a game having minimum hardware requirements which were met at the time can continue to play that game forever without upgrades. But if they want new features, enhancements and compatibility with the game servers hosted by third parties they will need to keep up with the minimum requirements of updates that make that possible. There is absolutely no legal issue here at all.

 

If you own an iPhone or Android device you already accept far worse. My 5 year old iPhone is completely unusable today because Apple end-of-lifed the hardware despite it working perfectly using the operating system version it shipped with. My 5 year old $5000 laptop is now a doorstop for the same reason. And there isn’t a damn thing I can do but accept it as an operating expense. 

 

 

The difference with minimum hardeare requirements for this game is that the support window is much longer, the upgrade cost incremental and more affordable and the gains actually worth the money.

 

By comparison my new iPhone does nothing more or better than my last despite costing me a fresh $2400.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Dave

[itsbillyfrazier]

I'm still getting my monies worth from my 980ti!

 

I recently upgraded my CPU to a i9-12900k and some fast 32GB RAM, a new NVIDIA GPU is on the shopping list but just not at the current prices.

 

It's good news the sim keeps progressing and I understand the need to increase minimum specs, it's just so annoying how the current GPU market is right now...

 

I'm hoping it will stabilise in the next 6 months or so. Hopefully with Intel entering the market this year, it will bring better competition and more competitive pricing. 

[Dave]

37 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

Really? 

I guess cause they have to work upsidedown

We are a relatively small and captive market that cannot shop overseas without being taxed more aggressively for circumventing sales channel monopolies. Generally overseas retailers are also prohibited from selling to us online by distribution contracts enforcing exclusive sales regions.

On top of this, manufacturers often pander to North America and the EU for fear of bad press in those key markets - so when availability of stock is low, as is normal in the first few months after launch, we miss out entirely. Hardly anyone here has an RTX30xx because by the time we could even order them the northern hemisphere markets had made them unobtanium. The only reason i have an RTX3090 is because after waiting three years for an upgrade for my 1080Ti it was the only newer card that was still available due to its ridiculous price tag. Across the country all 10 and 20 series cards were sold out and not available for back order. The only card I could find anywhere at any price was a 24GB RTX3090 - for a little over $3000.

Turns out its a great card but provided a less than spectacular upgrade for BoX because supporting 10 year old GPUs means that most of its features aren’t used by BoX. That and the fact that the game is CPU bottlenecked.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Dave

[simfan2015]

This is a graphics upgrade that I guess won't happen before the rtx4000 series is available at normal prices. I don't think people should be afraid. Don't see any drawbacks since we can always lower/turn down some graphic options. I will get that rtx4000 asap because I upgrade especially for DCS and fortunately IL-2 is far better optimised. Never had a problem playing il-2 in 4k with nice framerates, DCS is far more demanding... also in pancake/2d (not yet playing in VR, don't think I would then get those 120fps) 

[rodgerdavies]

Game runs superbly on my 2060S thanks, looking forward to hearing more about what you're cooking up.

[Guster]

15 hours ago, Kamicosmos said:

RTX2060 with 6GB of ram.  It's in a gaming laptop, so not able to upgrade.  Only way I was able to even get a decent video card for a normal price, was to buy a laptop!  

 

Same here. I'm getting a steady 70-80 fps at 1920x1080 with 12 plane furballs over the Rheinland so I'm not too worried.

[szelljr]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

This is a graphics upgrade that I guess won't happen before the rtx4000 series is available at normal prices. I don't think people should be afraid. Don't see any drawbacks since we can always lower/turn down some graphic options. I will get that rtx4000 asap because I upgrade especially for DCS and fortunately IL-2 is far better optimised. Never had a problem playing il-2 in 4k with nice framerates, DCS is far more demanding... also in pancake/2d (not yet playing in VR, don't think I would then get those 120fps) 

'before the rtx4000 series is available at normal prices.'             ?    Maybe in 10 years then  ??  Ok.

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

3080 10gb was close to the best before crypto madness

[Stan_o]

I am not expert on game development but is it not possible to simply create new preset setting like "super ultra better than ever" and current lowest keep is is now? So users can choose?

[kendo]

9 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I'm guessing, based on the returns so far that we are looking at 1080 cards as the upcoming minimum (and whatever the AMD equivalent is). Are the 10 or 20 series cards the minimum threshold for DX12?

 

I just bumped up to a monster card/system, so I'm covered either way.

 

Can't see that they would possibly go that high, especially after Sneaksie's comment 

As Shamrock said they could double min requirements to 4GB without leaving too many behind

[Mac_Messer]

1060 6GB. Not paying $1000 for a new one, period.

[Pollux]

I'm stuck with my GTX 980 in VR ?

 

Would compatibility with Nvidia Geforce Now be a solution ? 

 

Will the developers ever consider it ?

[Mo74]

Change is inevitable so if slow but constant progress in an evolving game means our niche hobby remains viable I'm happy for any engine/feature upgrades. I really enjoy what IL-2 is and is becoming, just as I read the latest developer update.

 

At the same time, would there be any major commercial/technical issues for IL-2 to offer its players an option to rollback or download legacy versions of the game? I believe you can do this in Steam for DCS World, for example.

 

Legacy players obviously would not be able to play in multiplayer, and they may have to use the Pat Wilson's offline campaign generator, but it would mean they could continue using the IL-2 content they have paid for. In return, I think most would accept these legacy versions as just that, older and 'unsupported'.

 

They could then move on to the latest game version as and when they have to inevitably upgrade at some point, as we all ultimately do in computing.

[162nd-YU-Markoni]

In Serbia it is very hard to find a proper graphic card. Prices for used are very high if you are lucky to find one.

Edited January 29, 2022 by 102nd-YUMarkoni

[Algy-Lacey]

I remember when I first tried VR in IL-2...

 

I had a GTX 1060 with 6GB VRAM, an Intel i5 6600k and lots of RAM powering an Oculus Rift (CV1). I was being told that I would have difficulty running IL-2 in VR. I recall there was a thread here that was saying to run a Rift at 90Hz (without ASW) you would need at least a GTX 1080, an Intel processor overclocked to 5GHz and fast DDR4 RAM, which were high specs at the time (and in some ways still are).

 

My experience was that I had to use ASW (motion smoothing) to get 45 fps, and in-game Balanced settings with eye candy turned down. There were stutters, there was ghosting, nevertheless I loved the immersion of VR.

 

So last year I spent a lot of money putting together a system that would cope with VR (specs are in my sig) including an RTX 2080ti, an overclocked processor, faster RAM etc. I also bought a Valve Index as an upgrade to my Rift.

 

My VR experience is great, I can run the Ultra preset and get a steady 80 fps, with less 'screen door' effect, little stuttering and ghosting compared to ASW / motion smoothing and overall a very satisfactory VR experience.

 

My concern is that an upgrade to the core engine of IL-2 might mess with the fine margins that most VR people have to maintain framerates without using ASW / motion smoothing. If it is possible that the Dev's only raise the bar of the Ultra preset and leave lower preset's the same, I see no problem. But if it is a core engine upgrade that affects all presets then this could be disastrous for some VR users.

 

Loving this sim and it's awesome VR implementation!

 

Regards,

Algy-Lacey

[AEthelraedUnraed]

7 minutes ago, Eeafanas said:

It seems to me that there were definitely some frauds with voting here. Of course, I judge from my belfry, but I do not believe that the western community is so rich that 13% have 3080-3080Ti. I think my GTX 1050Ti Gaming X 4Gb may soon be digging a grave...

It's 13% of people who voted, not 13% of the western community The way I look at it, flight sim enthousiasts are more likely to read the DD and vote in this poll. Flight sim enthousiasts are also more likely to fly VR. People who use VR are more likely to buy expensive video cards. Add to this the fact that flight simmers are more or less evenly spread across all ages. There's lots of elder people here, and those tend to have more money than the mostly-teenage average gamer of the "western community". People with more money are also more likely to buy expensive video cards.

 

Overall, I don't find it impossible to believe that 13% of voters have an RTX 3080.

[cardboard_killer]

The engine must advance. Card prices will eventually relent.

 

I do think, too, that our aging sim population is probably better able to handle the increased cost burden. I worry that it may, however, really lock out the younger gamer, who already are rarely WW2 flight sim enthusiasts.

[-DED-Mazai]

game developers need not think about how to load video cards, but about how to switch to threading, so that the processor does not have one core, but all

[ZachariasX]

8 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

The engine must advance. Card prices will eventually relent.

 

I do think, too, that our aging sim population is probably better able to handle the increased cost burden. I worry that it may, however, really lock out the younger gamer, who already are rarely WW2 flight sim enthusiasts.

I agree that sim engines (and game engines in general) must advance. So far, no matter how bad the codebase, hardware scaled more than stacking one turd layer of complexity on another, futher penalizing performance. We saw that occasionally when there was console porting of a game and the console was just not up to that wasteful codebase. Now is the time where an actual and steady degression of performance per $ in GPUs make this visible in games also for devoleppers that don't do console ports. Many in the gaming industry seem to believe that customers (and people in general) are good for nothing but abuse, but I think that will eventually come back to bite them.

 

I don't think this trend will change anytime soon, as the market finds a new equilibrium where Nvidia raised prices such that they make the grab of what (at least inpart) usually went to the scalpers, while AMD sees opportunity to produce low cost but expensive garbage that they know they will sell anyway and just throw that into the market as well. It is like what happened to the tobacco industry: After being forced to raise their prices due to regulatory issues, they found that they could make the same money by selling at twice the price to half of the customers. There was never a moment where they increased their profitability more than by just that step.

 

In the end, it is just all good news for the likes of TSMC and Samsung. They know now how much more they can charge and we are the suckers to whom the price hike is passed on.

 

I am glad that Jason stays on top of this by asking people what they can reasonably bring to the table as computing ressources and has the software implemented accordingly. This here is a good place.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I pre-ordered FC1 and FC2 when they first became available and have flown them through all variations using CH joystick and pedals.  I had to upgrade my 2004 Cybertron to a 1050ti when we went to FCVR.  Graphically not bad but it smeared, lagged, and froze a lot; especially in MP.

 

My old computer died last July. Now I'm flying a R7-5700X with a 3080ti. 

 

WOW!  The graphics and image integrity are flawless!  No lag, no smear, no nada!  So happy with FCVR now!  Looking forward to buying a better headset in the near future but the GPU is tits!  

 

Do you really need to change the sim when people can get great performance simply by improving their own rig?  

 

If you're gonna synch the sim with a hotter range of GPU, I'd suggest the 3080 as a middling benchmark because it's really popular and works great.

 

Prosit!  ?

 

  

[porks46porksf1sr]

1080 Mini here with 8gb RAM. I doubt I can afford a new card for at least three years or more based on current prices and I am 52....

Surprisingly a lot of our flyers in our COOP missions are below 30, so it does not hold true the user base is aging. I think what it is, is that they are not active on here so much.

 

If it also helps here are my specs:

 

Ryzen 5 3600 6 core

24Gb DDR4

Zotac Mini GT1080

Win11 Pro 

500gb SSD

1080p Monitor

No VR

 

I can run IL-2 at full whack with everything turned up to full at 160fps average including some bandwidth for streaming to YouTube at 1080p via OBS with no issues.

 

If I was to upgrade to the current line equivalent here in the UK, a RTX 3080 it would be £1560.00 currently ?

Edited January 29, 2022 by porks46porksf1sr

[ACG_PanzerVI]

Wanted more frames/spotting in VR after I got the Reverb G2.  My 2070 Super would run it, but I was frustrated at accepting lower frames and settings.

 

Got my 3080 on the Newegg Shuffle, by simply signing up every time, day after day.  Had hit once and scored a Radeon 6700X, but it wasn't any better than my 2070 Super.  Nailed the 3080 - and a very nice one at that - Aorus Xtreme - and had to get a more powerful PSU to run it.  Traded both the old GPUs out to help cover a little of the cost.    

 

Jason - I incorrectly marked 12gb of RAM on the survey.  Only has 10gb.  Sorry.  Not sure if I can retake or not.

[ronick]

2 часа назад, Eeafanas сказал:

It seems to me that there were definitely some frauds with voting here. Of course, I judge from my belfry, but I do not believe that the western community is so rich that 13% have 3080-3080Ti. I think my GTX 1050Ti Gaming X 4Gb may soon be digging a grave...

? i would say this is a democracy simulation,as usual. but more likely you just mismatched the community. more cash here anyway)

personally i'm fine with my old rx580nitro as long as it gives me my 50-60 fps on quad hd. also it mines and performs fine in 3ds max moves huge meshes. bought it new for 200usd several years ago. best card ever!

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-6700-xt/28.html

[1*Steel29]

I had a new build with a 3090 and IL-2 was the game I was flying in VR when I suspect my PSU fried my MB, one HD controller and my 3090.  I used the same AMD 5950x and RAM in the new build and found that I actually got better performance in IL-2 and another combat sim with the Radeon 6900XT than I did with the 3090.  I pretty much have everything in IL-2 maxed out and use a Pimax 8kx VR headset.  I only miss the 3090 when using the GPU for non gaming purposes such as video processing or 3d rendering.  I had a 1080ti in another build and used it to play IL-2 with the Vive with no issues.  I was able to play IL-2 with the 1080ti with the Pimax with lower settings.

 
I would say my priority on graphic wishes is the rendering of planes for identifying purposes at different distances.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by 1*Steel29

[DD_Mobius_One]

I am looking forward to a stronger better looking engine for both VR and overall.    They have added so much content and this is a great next logical step.   Crank up the requirements!!! 

[J2_Trupobaw]

On 1/28/2022 at 4:44 PM, Jason_Williams said:

 

 Simmers represent both ends of the spectrum. Both the most tech savvy and early adopters and the most stubborn who don't want to upgrade.

Jason

You got me here, Jason. But I finally moved to Windows 10 last December :D. 

 

 

(Keeping my old 1080 8 GB inside completly new Win 10 rig, because few cards available that are better all cost as much as said rig!)

[Redwo1f]

9 hours ago, Dave said:

 

 

Any customer that bought a game having minimum hardware requirements which were met at the time can continue to play that game forever without upgrades. But if they want new features, enhancements and compatibility with the game servers hosted by third parties they will need to keep up with the minimum requirements of updates that make that possible.

 

Bingo --- that is my whole point.

 

Whatever avenue 1C takes, they can't go back and render somebody's already purchased game useless to them --- that is the concern as the game connects to 1C's servers upon start up and will patch automatically. If they make backward changes that increase the requirements of the game, they have to have a system in place that allows customers to keep their games intact if they see fit.

 

Don't get me wrong here - I am all for advancement and progress made with the game engine. I'd love that (dependent). And I don't think I have to worry too too much personally I hope (?). Just I find myself being a consumer advocate for those that have low spec systems and being fair and just to them as well.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by Redwo1f

[Ptolemy_Soter]

Does this mean that current 3D model are going to be updated ?

This would be a very good news as many models are about 10 years old now.

 

Perhaps it would be nice to correct 3D model errors in the same time.