Pilot killed without being hit.

[6./ZG26_Loke]

It seems more and more like Il-2 is being turned into an arcade game, rather than being a Combat Flight Simulator.
It's still completely wrong with the Hit box that each aircraft model has. If you look through the track file, you can clearly see that the Hurricane pilot is at no time close to hitting. Strangely enough, however, he ends up getting a pilot-kill.
One's ai rear-gunner who was probably a little too good before, he has now been replaced with Marty Feldman, can not hit jack shit, not even close too.
What happened to the G-Force effect? Were there too many fighter jockeys who cried?

Track file DOWNLOAD

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Certainly experiencing lots of instant kills and pilot deaths flying in the 110 these days. 

[SCG_motoadve]

Totally agree with the OP.

Pilot kills to me are ruining this sim big time.

Way too common, way too easy, first shot many times, like sniper, and yes arcade, good for people who to like easy kills worry about stats etc.

If this was the way it was in WWII what about pilots who got shot down up to 10 times or more and bailed or crash landed and flew again and again.

That is impossible in this sim, on either side.

Too easy to make pilot kills, does not feel rewarding to get this kind of pilot kill, first bullet to the pilot which happens often is very arcade.

Like in this video, I get killed, first bullet , not very realistic isn't it?

 

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

How many .50 caliber rounds should one man be able to take?

[354thFG_Rails]

17 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Totally agree with the OP.

Pilot kills to me are ruining this sim big time.

Way too common, way too easy, first shot many times, like sniper, and yes arcade, good for people who to like easy kills worry about stats etc.

If this was the way it was in WWII what about pilots who got shot down up to 10 times or more and bailed or crash landed and flew again and again.

That is impossible in this sim, on either side.

Too easy to make pilot kills, does not feel rewarding to get this kind of pilot kill, first bullet to the pilot which happens often is very arcade.

Like in this video, I get killed, first bullet , not very realistic isn't it?

 

 

It's almost as if a battery of 6-8 50 cals, is effective? I mean I don't know what else an AP round is suppose to do? Seems like it's working as intended?

[purK]

55 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Like in this video, I get killed, first bullet , not very realistic isn't it?

It's very realistic, a single .50 caliber round is more than lethal to a human being. Read this post from Han himself about .50 caliber armor piercing capabilities:





Also here's a combat report of a pilot praising the effectiveness of his API .50 caliber ammo, claiming 5 kills, 2 of which he shot down with only a single .50 cal gun working. None of the pilots survived. The basic AP rounds we have in game are already more than capable of penetrating any 109/190 armor plates, and API will be even more effective at it.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Krupnski

[86th_Buzzi]

51 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Totally agree with the OP.

Pilot kills to me are ruining this sim big time.

Way too common, way too easy, first shot many times, like sniper, and yes arcade, good for people who to like easy kills worry about stats etc.

If this was the way it was in WWII what about pilots who got shot down up to 10 times or more and bailed or crash landed and flew again and again.

That is impossible in this sim, on either side.

Too easy to make pilot kills, does not feel rewarding to get this kind of pilot kill, first bullet to the pilot which happens often is very arcade.

Like in this video, I get killed, first bullet , not very realistic isn't it?

 

 

Surviving getting shot down 10 times would require the LW simpilot to actually bail out or ditch. ?

 

Due to the way .50 AP is modeled the hits have virtually no effect outside of killing the engine or the pilot. So if there's no pilot/engine kill the simpilot flies along fighting to the end, the plane eating 100 rounds until they're actually pilot killed.

 

Maybe it's time to start bailing out. Or lobby for incendiaries.?

[Denum]

8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

It's still completely wrong with the Hit box that each aircraft model has. If you look through the track file, you can clearly see that the Hurricane pilot is at no time close to hitting. Strangely enough, however, he ends up getting a pilot-kill.

 

HE in game has a pretty generous blast radius. If they landed a round on the engine it's definitely possible it killed your pilot. 

 

Sort of like when a 151/20 hits my starboard wing and my port wing begins leaking.

 

 

8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

What happened to the G-Force effect? Were there too many fighter jockeys who cried?

 

Previous system was unrealistic and heavily benefited axis aircraft. Judging from the squad tag I can understand why your upset. 

 

1 hour ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Too easy to make pilot kills, does not feel rewarding to get this kind of pilot kill, first bullet to the pilot which happens often is very arcade.

Like in this video, I get killed, first bullet , not very realistic isn't it?

 

Absolutely is realistic if you let someone park on your six at 200m. Your pilot would definitely get hit at that range. Would only take one or two .50s to outright kill you. 

 

One benefit I've seen from using such under modeled guns for so long is that most of the late war allied mains are very, VERY accurate shots. With the new penetration and dispersion model it makes them deadly.

 

 

 

 

 

[CountZero]

if its online it could be netcode ?  

 

i remenber back in day when ppl complained that .50 is week, it was said by defenders that online tests dont mather as it could be netcode making ppl belive that something is off with .50. Maybe try it in SP, maybe looks ok there , maybe more pk is MP only problem ? 

 

or its the aim problem , maybe guys learned to aim after so long not knowing how to aim with .50 ? 

 

must be one of thouse things

Edited January 23, 2022 by CountZero

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Sortie Log: 23.01.2022 - 02:32 / 69th_Mobile_BBQ / VirtualPilots (IL2 stats)

 

It very well might be netcode.  I'm pretty sure I ran this guy out of ammo and he peeled off.  There was nothing I could have crashed into. 5 seconds later and my pilot just switched off.

[6./ZG26_Loke]

5 hours ago, Denum said:

Previous system was unrealistic and heavily benefited axis aircraft. Judging from the squad tag I can understand why your upset. 

 

Lame comment, we just as often fly Allied aircraft. 
Just because one belong to an Axis Squadron, it dosn't mean your can't fly on the Allied side. Actaully same evening as this one was recorded, we fly P-38's on Combat Box.
 

 

3 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Sortie Log: 23.01.2022 - 02:32 / 69th_Mobile_BBQ / VirtualPilots (IL2 stats)

 

It very well might be netcode.  I'm pretty sure I ran this guy out of ammo and he peeled off.  There was nothing I could have crashed into. 5 seconds later and my pilot just switched off.

That could be true, only it would then be every single time, as I have not yet seen a track file, where the opponent actually hits.

Beside of that, the 110 has been turned into an aircraft made of glass, since the .50 effects was changed. when you look at real guncams shooting of 110's you will notice that they could take a lot of beating, without being dismantled like they do now.

And arcade also comes into mind when everyone now has Chuck Yeager vision, only not then it comes to spotting ground targets, where you can't see then until the very last minute. 

[Yogiflight]

7 hours ago, Denum said:

and heavily benefited axis aircraft.

How that? You mean IL-2 and Pe-2 gunners shooting very accurately in high G maneuvers was more realistic than the gunners of Bf 110s or Ju 87s?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

18 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

What happened to the G-Force effect? Were there too many fighter jockeys who cried?

 

I see only one crying.

 

And you act suprised that Zerstörergeschwader with their 110s get rekt by single engine fighters.

noooo waaaay

 

It almost sounds like they are obsolete or something.

[6./ZG26_Loke]

1 hour ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

I see only one crying.

 

And you act suprised that Zerstörergeschwader with their 110s get rekt by single engine fighters.

noooo waaaay

 

It almost sounds like they are obsolete or something.

It would suit you to come up with constructive criticism, instead of these childish statements.

Edited January 23, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[MeoW.Scharfi]

10 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Were you not the one crying loudest, when it was more realistic. 

 

Keep trying with your selective realism and calling everything arcade which makes it harder for you to be anything useful with your 110.

 

Since I've seen you and your squadmates turnings exactly into the wall of bullets and exposing your entire pilot a couple of times.... ?‍♀️

Like that

 

I bet the 10,5mm headrest will stop a cal50 bullets with a penetration value of +22mm. ?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Loke is right, instead of making it personal how about some constructive criticism. I've flown the 110 in game long enough to know that the changes that recently occurred seem to have made the 110 into a proverbial glass house. It's not just pilot kills it's one hit and the aircraft can just explode. Added to this is the ineffectiveness of the rear gunner and the pilot dying from a hit to the engine. Possibly it is a server-side setting or something else? 

Edited January 23, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[MeoW.Scharfi]

5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

He's right, you make it personal instead of coming up with constructive criticism. 

 

I don't make anything personal, my observation of you ppl turning to the the wall of bullets and act suprised that you have died so quick.

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

12 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

I don't make anything personal, my observation of you ppl turning to the the wall of bullets and act suprised that you have died so quick

The point is, you just don't get killed from a wall of bullets though. As the OP pointed out, he took an engine hit  but the pilot died. 

Edit: my observation now is the 110 is now an extremely vulnerable aircraft to fly in. Much more so than before. IDK maybe that's how it always should have been? 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The 110 is a big aircraft but currently with almost laser beam precision it's seems that minor hits make it explode or pilot dies. This of course could be netcode  or the hitbox problem, I don't know. But it can't all be blamed on poorly flown aircraft or the elite skills of single engine fighter jocks. 

Edit: All joking aside something is definitely amiss

Edited January 23, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[purK]

8 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The 110 is a big aircraft but currently with almost laser beam precision it's seems that minor hits make it explode or pilot dies. This of course could be netcode  or the hitbox problem, I don't know. But it can't all be blamed on poorly flown aircraft or the elite skills of single engine fighter jocks. 

Edit: All joking aside something is definitely amiss

Not only the 110 suffers from frequent explosions, but many other planes like the P38, P47, A20, etc etc, basically anything with multiple engines or large fuel tanks. It's a bit too common in certain planes, not just the 110.

As for pilots, the 110 pilot only has an armor plate behind him which can be easily penetrated by .50s. Players often remove this armor plate too for better visibility, so not very surprising when they get hit instantly.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

4 minutes ago, Krupnski said:

Not only the 110 suffers from frequent explosions,

Well aware of that and I agree. The P-38 in particular explodes regularly. 

6 minutes ago, Krupnski said:

Players often remove this armor plate too for better visibility

I wouldn't risk a court martial by removing the armour plate.

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

12 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

I just love this ? You do realize that our .50cals had incorrect penetration values?

That's a fine and dandy but if the hit boxes or the damage modelling is an additional problem on certain aircraft, I would hope that would be looked at too, would you? 

14 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

Gunners are more realistic now that they were prior to the fix.

Gunners now are completely ineffective depending on server-side setting. 

[SCG_motoadve]

31 minutes ago, Krupnski said:

Not only the 110 suffers from frequent explosions, but many other planes like the P38, P47, A20, etc etc, basically anything with multiple engines or large fuel tanks. It's a bit too common in certain planes, not just the 110.

Agreed, explosions are far too common now.

[No.23_Gaylion]

14 hours ago, US103_Talbot said:

How many .50 caliber rounds should one man be able to take?

 

I'll ask it again just in case it was missed.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

27 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

I'll ask it again just in case it was missed.

How many 50 calibre rounds should it take to make an aircraft instantaneously exploding? 

I asked this because some aircraft in the game can take 2 to 3 hits from a 30mm and carry on flying. 

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

39 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

How many 50 calibre rounds should it take to make an aircraft instantaneously exploding? 

 

Do you have any tracks or video to support this? In my experience fuel tank detonations occur almost exclusively to HE hits, where they are too common imo on certain aircraft. But when firing exclusively browning .50 cal, they're so rare as to be practically non-existent in my experience. It generally always takes a pilot kill or engine fire to score a kill with .50s, they're not very good at causing other kinds of damage in game.

 

 

 

 

 

[86th_Buzzi]

I think we can all find agreement that there are too many planes exploding on all sides.

[-SF-Disarray]

Am I the only person that thinks it is a bit odd that all this anecdotal evidence from MP sessions is being taken so seriously all of the sudden? Back two years ago when people had questions about the .50's and AP rounds this kind of evidence was scorned and dismissed, by some of the same people that are now very sure something is wrong based on this same kind of evidence.

[Denum]

7 minutes ago, QB.Buzzi said:

I think we can all find agreement that there are too many planes exploding on all sides.

Whole heartedly agree. It's just not fun.

 

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

my observation now is the 110 is now an extremely vulnerable aircraft to fly in. Much more so than before. IDK maybe that's how it always should have been? 

 

I've been doing a little digging to try and see if there was additional armor in the cockpit for the 110. 

 

I know they had the seat armor, but curious if there was any side protection. 

 

The canopy is very flat so it doesn't encourage much in the form of ricochets. 

 

 

They do reference a armor upgrade but that's just likely the addition of the armored seat. 

[No.23_Gaylion]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

How many 50 calibre rounds should it take to make an aircraft instantaneously exploding? 

I asked this because some aircraft in the game can take 2 to 3 hits from a 30mm and carry on flying. 

 

Was the OP about .50's causing explosions or pilot kills?

[Noisemaker]

[6./ZG26_Custard]

26 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

Was the OP about .50's causing explosions or pilot kills

The pilot being killed he was on about was caused by a hit to the engine. 

He didn't even mention. 50 cals

You were the first to bring them into the thread. 

[QB.Shallot]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The pilot being killed he was on about was caused by a hit to the engine. 

He didn't even mention. 50 cals

You were the first to bring them into the thread. 

Someone else decided to use the post as a soapbox for the .50's being able to penetrate pilot armor.

As for the post, it's pretty simple, and doesn't warrant discussion.

Either

1) It's desync. I've been killed by rounds that never hit my aircraft before because someone was rocking 280 ping and hit reg gets real funky when that's the case.

2) the cannon fragmentation had a wide enough AOE to clip the pilot and game end him, which is a universal issue of cannons having enormous splash damage which may tweaked after BoN. 

[No.23_Gaylion]

28 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The pilot being killed he was on about was caused by a hit to the engine. 

He didn't even mention. 50 cals

You were the first to bring them into the thread. 

 

Oh wait, not the OP but the dude who posted right above mine that was PK'd by a mustang.

 

My bad.

 

 

[Yogiflight]

4 hours ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

 

 

I bet the 10,5mm headrest will stop a cal50 bullets with a penetration value of +22mm. ?

Fired from that direction the armored head protection won't help anyway, as it is angled to the rear. The rounds would simply pass in front of it.

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

A gentle reminder that IL-2 uses client-side hit detection: The person shooting is registering the hits. It's why you see the "Delayed hit data received" message in multiplayer sometimes: It's the attacking pilot's computer that has to update the victim that their plane got damaged.

 

This means that unless both people involved have an absolutely perfect internet connection, the victim's track file isn't going to be entirely accurate. However, you can be assured that the person that was shooting actually did have to hit your pilot in their simulation.

On 1/22/2022 at 6:23 PM, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

It seems more and more like Il-2 is being turned into an arcade game, rather than being a Combat Flight Simulator.

The 'big change' to the 50cal that is making 110s die a bit more is that they were corrected to their real life ballistic specifications - they were previously lighter and slower then the actual round. Correcting a data error to make the game conform to reality more is not turning it into an arcade game, quite the opposite.

Edited January 23, 2022 by [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly

[6./ZG26_Loke]

@[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly

 

Thanks for making some valid remarks, this is something everyone can appreciate.
If you are right in what you say, what you probably have, then you will obviously not be able to use track files as proof, unfortunately.

In terms of .50, if it is 100% correct, then one should perhaps look more at the damage models on the individual aircraft. Since the Bf-110s behave like made of glass. The A-20 is even worse as they fall apart by themselves, just a hostile plane flying past.
There have been several cases in real life where both He-111s and Do-17s have been completely into swiss cheese, but they still manage to make an emergency landing and sure enough, with dead crewmembers, but the pilot alive. This is currently not possible in Il-2 Series.
The same goes for P-47s and Il-2s, they could absorb the entire charge from an enemy aircraft, and still fly home. There are several reports where German pilots had to give up shooting down Il-2s.
I would argue there is a basis for looking at the damage model for especially bombers and groundattact planes, and also the constant first bullit pilotkills.

[354thFG_Rails]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

@[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly

 

Thanks for making some valid remarks, this is something everyone can appreciate.
If you are right in what you say, what you probably have, then you will obviously not be able to use track files as proof, unfortunately.

In terms of .50, if it is 100% correct, then one should perhaps look more at the damage models on the individual aircraft. Since the Bf-110s behave like made of glass. The A-20 is even worse as they fall apart by themselves, just a hostile plane flying past.
There have been several cases in real life where both He-111s and Do-17s have been completely into swiss cheese, but they still manage to make an emergency landing and sure enough, with dead crewmembers, but the pilot alive. This is currently not possible in Il-2 Series.
The same goes for P-47s and Il-2s, they could absorb the entire charge from an enemy aircraft, and still fly home. There are several reports where German pilots had to give up shooting down Il-2s.
I would argue there is a basis for looking at the damage model for especially bombers and groundattact planes, and also the constant first bullit pilotkills.

What's with this first bullet pilot kill claims? It can happen. As far as the damage model, nothing will get looked at till after Normandy. If at all. I'm not sure what you're expecting a plane made out of soda cans to do against an Armor Piercing round. It's designed to go through shit. And again, it's not even the accurate ammo type for these machine gun setups. So again to beg the question, what are you expecting should happen? Always able to absorb hundreds of rounds with any negative effects to performance? Because we still have that to a certain extent. If your mad of all the pilot killing, I don't know what else to tell you. It's an AP round, there are only a couple ways it can bring down a plane...

[No_Face]

Sometimes I really feel that some people are acting in bad faith by purposely not understanding certain things... ?

[SCG_motoadve]

14 minutes ago, QB.Rails said:

What's with this first bullet pilot kill claims? It can happen

It probably happened, but definitely not as much as it is happening in game.

As for the planes, IL2s and P47s were known for absorbing a ton of damage and keep going, bombers too, in game they are way too fragile.