What has happened to our gunners???

[III./SG77S_Falke]

I have been told by colleagues in my unit that our gunnery officers have been "de-tuned"

 

What the EXPLETIVE?!?!?!

 

My digital gunner, Otto von KitKat, has 20 confirmed kills to his name.  Now he acts like he has lost his mojo and even the incentive of higher pay hasn't changed his mood!

 

I can understand if our gunners were a little too accurate for  their positions but they don't seem to respond nearly as much when fighters are on our tails.

 

Are the developers going to look into this and correct the issue to make our gunners reactions more realistic than they are currently?

 

Thank you...

 

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Online or offline? Servers typically set the AI gunner levels so if you're talking about a multiplayer server you'd need to talk to them.

 

I don't recall any mention of any changes to the AI gunners in any patch notes.

[Luftschiff]

23 hours ago, III./SG77-S_Falke said:

correct the issue to make our gunners reactions more realistic than they are currently?

 

 

 

If gunners were to become more realistic I'm pretty damn sure they'd have to be tuned down, not up.
The only change to gunners recently has been a small tweak that made them effectively also be slightly affected by G-forces.

[CountZero]

show me realistic bomber formations and numbers of them in game or online especialy and then we can talk how bad fighter players have it... in the end this is fighter player dominated game so no suprise direction gunners abilitys are going to. I dont mined being shoot down by bomber gunner even if its from some unrealistic angles i in fighter still have so mutch more easy job then they do online, if anyone need help its them. Problem is AI skills in this game are poorly balanced, this is what was suposed to be tone down, ace left as it was, but novice toned down, so MP still have some options.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Flying more or less exclusively online and in the Bf 110 for 80% of the time, it certainly does seem like the rear gunner is far less effective than before. Admittedly, they were too effective if set to a high skill level. However, now it does seem like they are struggling to hit the broadside of a barn. This could of course be a server side setting or just my imagination? 

[ShamrockOneFive]

16 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Flying more or less exclusively online and in the Bf 110 for 80% of the time, it certainly does seem like the rear gunner is far less effective than before. Admittedly, they were too effective if set to a high skill level. However, now it does seem like they are struggling to hit the broadside of a barn. This could of course be a server side setting or just my imagination? 

 

It's server side to set the skill.

 

Which server were you on?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I got a 110 career going for a long while. In first half of BOM or more my rear gunner was very efficient, maybe too efficient, getting kills here and there and damaging several engines so the interceptors broke off. But something happened at some point and now my gunner is totally useless. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Which server were you on?

Finnish Virtual Pilots. 

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

On 1/21/2022 at 6:18 PM, LukeFF said:

 

You've been told wrong. There's a very long list of changes that's published right here and updated every time that a new update is released, so you can see what is fact and what is fiction. Don't believe everything you hear on an MP comms channel (that, or the infamous "is it just me?" posts).  

Gunners were adjusted in 4.604b, and yes, it was in the patch notes. (It was also extremely noticeable if you happen to fly or intercept bombers with any regularity): 

 

Quote

1. The ability of aircraft turret gunners to fire when their aircraft is maneuvering has been slightly reduced;
2. Reduced the aiming accuracy of aircraft turret gunners when there is a large speed difference between the target and the firing aircraft;

These made a huge impact on AI gunner accuracy, in both single and multiplayer. Before that patch gunners were extremely accurate, and almost laser-like in their ability to put shots into the engine and cockpit. After the patch they seem to have a natural tendency to swing the gun all over the place, it's a stark difference, and since that patch I've not taken any significant damage from a rear gun. Quite the difference when before diving on a 110 could cripple you if you so much as wandered into its arc. Overall I think it's good that they were made less accurate, particularly against high speed targets, but it was a bit much of an overcorrection, even with very little speed difference the AI gunners seem incapable of landing any shots

 

Some gifs that demonstrate this innaccuracy:

https://imgur.com/CGOdhH3

https://imgur.com/1vYyILN

 

[No_Face]

4 minutes ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

Some gifs that demonstrate this innaccuracy:

https://imgur.com/CGOdhH3

https://imgur.com/1vYyILN

 

Indeed, the images speak for themselves.

[Avimimus]

Interesting. It'd be interesting to look up the values in the actual files. I made the RoF gunner behaviour mod (I actually almost finished porting it to BoX at one point). Through changing a few values it essentially replaced the standard mechanism for inaccuracy with one that was based on the rate of change of position. I wonder if this patch did something somewhat similar. It probably is still keeping the original system in place though (whereas I decreased its effects a lot to compensate for the changes I made).

[Stonehouse]

Think this is what you are looking for 

If you want them to be better shots I'm assuming you can tweak things as you wish by changing values in the Blind Gunners mod. 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Ram399]

12 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

extremely noticeable if you happen to fly or intercept bombers with any regularity

I did in fact notice this on my first mission of day one of the update shortly after intercepting a flight of Pe-2s in a Bf-109 career.
 

I was following my usual Pe-2 attack pattern of diving around the formation like a chickenhawk with brain damage, and was then literally astounded when one of my AI wingmen buzzed straight in from dead six (as they always do, this could also use some work), with a rate of closure somewhere in the range of 30 km/hr, blew one out of the sky without a care in the world, and then escaped with his engine, oil, coolant, and person all unmolested.

I was then even more astounded when I tried the same approach and also succeeded without being shot even a single time.

I am of the opinion that the gunners before this patch were too accurate, and that it is good that progress has been made on this front.
However, if I'm being honest, the current state of the gunners' shooting ability makes my concussed chickenhawk routine look like a flawlessly choreographed ballet.
Which is to say, they're as dumb as a bag of rocks and could do with at least a little bit of an improvement.

Not so much of an improvement that they can once again single burst engine kill me mid-dive with a perfectly calculated deflection snap shot, but enough that if I hang around stationary in their firing arc for any longer than a couple seconds they can walk at least a few rounds in.

[rieper_420]

hello fellow pilots:

 

Checking the history of:

\data\LuaScripts\worldobjects\bots\turretcontrollerai.txt

 

coefficient of conversion of the speed difference between the speeds of the object on which the turret and the target, in the aiming plane, into the error angles

ProjSpeedCoef = 0.2f; // org: 0.05

 

The old value which made the super sniper ai was 0.05

It has been changed to 0.2 => apparently now the AI gunners are shooting too inaccurately...

 

Seems like this is a major factor in gunner accuracy.

I am currently tweaking the value - ProjSpeedCoef = 0.1f has brought some improvements - I am now sometimes getting hit when cruising directly behind a bomber.

 

Best regards

Rieper

 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

I think taking always a headshot in every angle from the rear gunner was too much. But just attack the Bomber from behind with hope the gunner not hit should be strictly punished. The main field of fire behind a Bomber is no Wellness Zone

The keyword is effort. 
It should be rewarded the effort attack the Bomber from the dead angles and the skill come into this positions.

Think can parking behind a Bomber should be punished with damage and pain, not only a penalty ticket from the police ?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Looks like another situation where the devs struggle to find the proper in-between.

 

The gunners went from too good, to useless.

[Luftschiff]

As someone who mainly flies attackers, I really don't think they are too bad, and I find this vastly preferable than what we had before. 

I still get shot up by gunners if I mess up, and only yesterday my 110 gunners racked up two kills in three engagements so clearly it's not as bad as all that.

The only time I found it odd was in Flying Circus, where the distances are frequently just a few meters, essentially stationary targets hanging on my dead six and my gunner was aiming all over the place - but hell I think that was a player.

[Art-J]

The gifs posted by Gorn_Captain above show pretty absurd results, though, given the fact that speed difference between bomber and fighter in these is very small, contrary to what was mentioned in the patch notes. Not sure if that's the result devs wanted to get.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

This is just an anecdote from QMB 1v1 when the "Random enemy plane" setting gives a string of Ju-88s and He-111s.  Since the bombers fly like fighters and use every maneuver their flight envelope will allow (including full flaps down hammerheads, split S and diving high-G spirals with sudden direction changes) in order to point their gunners at you, I've noticed that the gunners only have 2 difficulty settings....  1) Gunner can't even hit the Earth itself.    or    2). Gunner is totally sick of putting up with your shit, you die now. Speed and angle-off matters not.

 

(Yes, I am *partially* joking.)

[Lusekofte]

If they just can give a warning in time

[KodiakJac]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:36 AM, rieper_420 said:

hello fellow pilots:

 

Checking the history of:

\data\LuaScripts\worldobjects\bots\turretcontrollerai.txt

 

 

 

Why can't I find the "...bot/turretcontrollerai.txt" file in my IL-2 Great Battles game directory?  I also did a search of my entire IL-2 Great Battles game directory, and File Explorer can't find "turretcontrollerai.txt" anywhere.

 

I've got "Show Hidden Files" checked, so how do I find this file?

 

Thanks! 

[rieper_420]

Howdy KodiakJac,

 

To directly answer your question on the "why":

=> you can't find the file as it is part of scripts.gtp which needs to be unpacked using UnGTP (check mods section)

=> you can't find the file as you have not installed any of my "less accurate gunner" mods.

 

Please find attached a mini Mod I just created for you. It has some tweaks. (it also contains the original unmodded file for reference)

 

Download Link:

 

 

MOD_lessBlindGunners.zip

 

 

 

 

With the following changes, I just tried a quick mission with and was able to shoot down 2 of 4 He-111 (average AI) with a Yak-9 while being half-careful before getting killed after parking my plane 200m behind a He-111

 

main values I propose to tweak:

/***********************/

// // coefficient of conversion of the speed difference between the speeds of the object on which the turret and the target, in the aiming plane, into the error angles

comment: setting this from 0.2 to 0.08 seemed to have quite an impact on accuracy

high value: speed difference causes high inaccuracy

low value: gunner will always be a sniper and has perfect lead to target

ProjSpeedCoef = 0.08f; // org: 0.2

//default aiming error rate
AddCoef = 0.05f; // org: 0.05

 

 

 

 

//  conversion factor of overload to aiming units

Comment: => this seems to be the effect on G forces, so how much the accuracy is affected by G-forces.
High value: gunner is very inaccurate when plane is maneuvering.

low value: gunner does not care about G forces at all
OverloadCoef = 0.035f; //org: 0.05f

 

 

// time after which the erroneous sight passes from one point to another
// and the time for which sight errors occur

Comment: this is also a rather interesting factor, seems to affect the time how long it takes to correct, maybe that is causing the weird sweeping motions seen in the gifs??

ErrorCircleTime = 1.0f; //org: 2.0
ErrorChangeTime = 0.7f; //org: 1.0

 

 

// target search time, each period is checked, the more often - the more brakes naturally
// further than the search distance for AI levels, for example, Low AI does not perceive a target further than 400 meters - it does not see it, it is afraid, etc.

comment: this seems to be the factor how often the AI searches for targets

high value: AI only will search for targets, start targeting every x seconds => if you put this to 5, the AI will react only every 5 seconds.. I have the feeling that 2 is too low value - the gunners seem to react very sluggish

low value: AI will search for targets more often. I put this value to 0.1 once accidentally => made every gunner in the mission check for new targets every 0.1 seconds => totally killed my framerate

 

MaxSearchTime  = 1.3f; //org: 2.0

 

 

/***********************/

 

Hope that somewhat answered your question.

 

Cheers

Rieper

Edited January 25, 2022 by rieper_420
more details added

[LLv34_Temuri]

On 1/21/2022 at 8:15 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

Servers typically set the AI gunner levels so if you're talking about a multiplayer server you'd need to talk to them.

I don't think the AI level has anything to do with gunner skill. We have it set to Ace, and they still don't hit anything.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Even on the WW1 kites, where attacking a 2 seater was usually a certainty to have a bullet in your vitals, the gunners now appear to all be drunk.  Was flying a Bristol two days ago and the gunner couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if the plane was parked inside it. Every AI in my missions is set to ACE, and it makes no difference, the gunners suck, and so do the AI pilots.  Even in WW2 birds it's the same story,  FW 190s making nice lazy circles while I am peppering them with my Mustang.  No evasives, nothing, just flying around la dee da everything is fine, nothing to see here...  

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

I don't think the AI level has anything to do with gunner skill. We have it set to Ace, and they still don't hit anything.

I guarantee that it does. Setup a Stuka in QMB and run it on rookie and ace and notice how much more quickly the ace gunner can bullseye you.

 

I was wrong, however, that nothing had changed as someone noted above that G forces cause more issues for gunners. I suspect a lot of players don't give their gunners the ability to fire back and swing around in tight turns and high G evasive maneuvers.

[LLv34_Temuri]

1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I guarantee that it does. Setup a Stuka in QMB and run it on rookie and ace and notice how much more quickly the ace gunner can bullseye you.

 

If that is the case, I do welcome the new changes to gunners, as they were superhuman snipers even when the AI skill was set to lowest. However, I still do suspect that gunners in QMB and MP enviroments differ.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I suspect a lot of players don't give their gunners the ability to fire back and swing around in tight turns and high G evasive maneuvers.

One of the tactics employed in multiplayer that used to work fairly well in MP in the Bf 110, was to fly very low, level and fast.  The rear gunner normally would do a very good job at either fending off attackers or shooting them down. In all honesty too good of a job. The gunners did have superhuman abilities. However now what seems to have happened is that the gunners can't hit anything even if flying level. 

It's completely understandable that the protection that the Superhuman gunners gave Bomber pilots a exaggerated sense of survivability. Having said that, The gunners now appear to give no defensive capability whatsoever.  I certainly don't want superhuman gunners back but it's would be nice to have at least a level of defensive capability, particularly when a fighter is sitting on your six and the gunner is completely useless. 

Edit : This is not my video, it's credited to @[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain.  

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[354thFG_Leifr]

Ow, if that is how gunners are currently behaving, there is definitely an issue with them. I haven't been able to fly for several months now, but they definitely did not perform like that for me in either Allied or Axis aircraft.

[kendo]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Even on the WW1 kites, where attacking a 2 seater was usually a certainty to have a bullet in your vitals, the gunners now appear to all be drunk.  Was flying a Bristol two days ago and the gunner couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if the plane was parked inside it. Every AI in my missions is set to ACE, and it makes no difference, the gunners suck, and so do the AI pilots.  Even in WW2 birds it's the same story,  FW 190s making nice lazy circles while I am peppering them with my Mustang.  No evasives, nothing, just flying around la dee da everything is fine, nothing to see here...  

 

Watching the video above does suggest something needs to be tweaked, but yesterday I had the experience of my Albatros campaign pilot's plane being taken out at 300m first shot by a camel in a dive from behind. Also have been shot up by FC gunners recently.

 

But, yes, that video.....some fine-tuning needed for easy shots like that I think. 

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

7 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

One of the tactics employed in multiplayer that used to work fairly well in MP in the Bf 110, was to fly very low, level and fast.  The rear gunner normally would do a very good job at either fending off attackers or shooting them down. In all honesty too good of a job. The gunners did have superhuman abilities. However now what seems to have happened is that the gunners can't hit anything even if flying level. 

It's completely understandable that the protection that the Superhuman gunners gave Bomber pilots a exaggerated sense of survivability. Having said that, The gunners now appear to give no defensive capability whatsoever.  I certainly don't want superhuman gunners back but it's would be nice to have at least a level of defensive capability, particularly when a fighter is sitting on your six and the gunner is completely useless. 

Edit : This is not my video, it's credited to @[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain.  

 

 

 

Interesting. That definitely needs more testing to see what's happening.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

18 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Interesting. That definitely needs more testing to see what's happening.

 

Rear gunner AI when set to novice is completely ineffective.  It's  understandable that this is supposed to represent novice airmen, the AI can't even hit an aircraft flying through their formation straight and level.

 

 

    

Now here is the rub, most online servers seem to set AI to novice. This is fantastic for the fighter jocks but pretty terrible for those pilots that win maps (those brave bomber crews).

 

When AI is set to ace it certainty seems to give a much better account of itself but I'm not sure I would call it "Ace". 

 

 

 

 

I don't want super human AI gunners but I think if servers are setting AI to novice then bombers don't stand a chance. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

22 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I don't want super human AI gunners but I think if servers are setting AI to novice then bombers don't stand a chance. 

 

Your test above is roughly what I see as well. Ace gunners are quite effective at hitting aircraft flying past. Rookie gunners almost never land shots and basically panic fire. I think that's a good range of experience.

 

And yes, I agree, if multiplayer servers set them to rookie then they aren't going to do much and they will be mostly useless. At that point you need to talk to the multiplayer server operator rather than the developers.

 

Where I'm leaving some room and where some testing might indeed be needed is if there is some sort of other variable with the gunners in multiplayer. Are they not tracking targets as effectively as they do in singleplayer? If so... why? And at that point is the focus on the AI or is it in the networking side of things. Hypothetically: Are gunners now not getting as rapid updates as human players on the position of aircraft and is this causing a problem?

[CountZero]

most popular servers already have it set on Ace and i doubt they changed it to something els.

[SOB_Looper]

First off, thanks for the great server. I and my squad mates enjoy it a great deal.

We fly both fighters and bombers. We fly bombers less than we would like to these days because the gunner's  do literally nothing these. when 4 of us go out in 110's we usually get shot down by fighters, many times all 4 shot down by 1 fighter. Our 110s are defenseless.  Please , Please look into improving the gunners! when flying a fighter I used to get shot down by gunners and didnt like it either but it is part of life in the game.

I do not want this to turn into a mostly dogfight room.

Thanks

[CountZero]

17 hours ago, SOB_Looper said:

First off, thanks for the great server. I and my squad mates enjoy it a great deal.

We fly both fighters and bombers. We fly bombers less than we would like to these days because the gunner's  do literally nothing these. when 4 of us go out in 110's we usually get shot down by fighters, many times all 4 shot down by 1 fighter. Our 110s are defenseless.  Please , Please look into improving the gunners! when flying a fighter I used to get shot down by gunners and didnt like it either but it is part of life in the game.

I do not want this to turn into a mostly dogfight room.

Thanks

you can also servive longer in fighter with bomb, andon top how dmg of object is done, you can probably destroy more ground stuff by just shoting at them, why bomb factory, port or hangar when few bullets destroy it. 

[[DBS]TH0R]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:56 PM, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

Overall I think it's good that they were made less accurate, particularly against high speed targets, but it was a bit much of an overcorrection, even with very little speed difference the AI gunners seem incapable of landing any shots

 

I share this view after spending some time flying in a formation of bombers. Now it doesn't give any extra benefit or protection, just looks cool.

 

Middle ground fix is needed, together with AI gunners not shooting at friendly bombers flying near by. Plz gib! 

[SOB_Hans]

On 1/30/2022 at 7:29 PM, SOB_Looper said:

First off, thanks for the great server. I and my squad mates enjoy it a great deal.

We fly both fighters and bombers. We fly bombers less than we would like to these days because the gunner's  do literally nothing these. when 4 of us go out in 110's we usually get shot down by fighters, many times all 4 shot down by 1 fighter. Our 110s are defenseless.  Please , Please look into improving the gunners! when flying a fighter I used to get shot down by gunners and didnt like it either but it is part of life in the game.

I do not want this to turn into a mostly dogfight room.

Thanks

The Allies have the P-38 early which can defend it'self after dropping. The BF110 is still a very heavy fighter. Flying a JU88 or HE111 is almost use;ess since a few canon rounds will put them down. Neither can fly on one engine for very long.

 

It gets old getting pushed off the map over and over. Axis has not won a map in over a year I think. Plus. most times I am on the server there are usually 10-15 more allied than axis flying.

[LLv34_Temuri]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:16 PM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

When AI is set to ace it certainty seems to give a much better account of itself but I'm not sure I would call it "Ace". 

 

On 1/27/2022 at 6:41 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

Your test above is roughly what I see as well. Ace gunners are quite effective at hitting aircraft flying past. Rookie gunners almost never land shots and basically panic fire. I think that's a good range of experience.

We have the AI level set to "Ace" on our server, and the rear gunners still don't hit anything.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

We have the AI level set to "Ace" on our server, and the rear gunners still don't hit anything.

Currently, fighters can just sit on the six of bomber aircraft with impunity. There is more or less no threat. Some of our squad was flying on Flugpark, in Bristols on Friday and everyone's aircraft was shot down, by one fighter. Just sat on the tail with not a care in the world. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

5 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

 

We have the AI level set to "Ace" on our server, and the rear gunners still don't hit anything.

That's definitely problematic then.

 

It seems there's a narrow window between sharpshooter and spray and pray modes for the gunners.