Why Hitler Lost the War: German Strategic Mistakes in WWII

[AndyJWest]

An interesting lecture by historian Andrew Roberts (author of The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5agLW7fTzBc

 

Only skimming the surface, as any half-hour lecture will necessarily do, but he gets his point across well - Hitler didn't lose a war he could well have won because he was an imbecile (he wasn't), or because he was a madman (he wasn't - at least until the last weeks of the war), but because he was a Nazi...

 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with his premise, but it is thought provoking. 

[Finkeren]

And so begins the 15+ pages discussion.

 

We had this one a few months back, where I made my position quite clear: Germanys war was a huge gamble from the start, and the amazing thing about it is not that it failed in the end, but that it went well for so long.

 

By late 1941 it was clear, at least to some in the German high command, that the gamble had failed, and that Germany was fighting a losing battle against an undefeated USSR and the industrial power of the USA and UK. Japan was a distraction for the US for a time, but they essentially lost their over-ambitious war the minute they started it, when they failed to eliminate US naval power.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

The nazi regime had relatively little influence on the overall outcome of the war, but was ofc responsible for making the war so brutal and bloody.

[Cybermat47]

They would've done a lot better if they had enough submarines at the beginning.

 

We should be thankful that they didn't.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Well if digging history you can see Kriegsmarine was preparing it's fleet for 1943, not 1939. That was when the warring was to begin, but the moustache man speeded up things. Also German industry was manufcturing daily luxury items well into the 1943 like in peace time, not war goods. For example in Russia Stalin ordered industry to convert for war production pretty fast. In Germany they produced like 124 or so Bf109's per month during BoB when the demand was a lot higher as we all know. At the end of war Germany produced more planes than ever, but too late. One can say they made a gamble with insufficient preparations from the bottom to top. I think the Allied had 2 of the best secret weapons in WW2: Hitler and Göering

[siipperi]

They lost because he was nazi. Sounds about right.

[taleks]

Not watched lecture yet, so just my opinion on this matter.

 

1. Germany (and e.g. Japan) lacked resources. They had talented generals and technology (although they've started with horses), but theirs major factors of success were propaganda and fast army movements to acquire control over area and resources.

The only significant blitzkrieg that they've failed to deploy was against USSR. They were not ready to battle for a long time (nobody was, in fact), they've not enough resources for that.

Even human resources were limited.

 

Thus, after 1943 Germany's defeat was unavoidable, cause USSR's industry (and help of allies, of course) overcame economical potential of Germany.

All army operations of USSR after Kursk were offensive, not defensive. The same is applicable to Allies military operations.

It was mistake (and diplomatic mistake as well) to war against whole world.

 

2. Hitler as other totalitarian regimes initially was rooted by workers class. After losing in WWI and paying reparations Germany had big problems in economics.

Hitler promised (and fulfilled this promise) workers to give them work and salary. They admired him for privileges they've got.

A lot of talented persons climbed career ladder in a short period.

However, later ('40-'44) Germany began to suffer of corruption and aristocracy. They've started to live relaxed life and distribute positions to moneybags proteges.

And yet they were at war. That disturbed nation as well, cause their loses and never ending war began to influence lifestyle and income of middle class.

Germans began more frequently to oppose war. Nation was tired of propaganda (they've begun to see unattractive truth) and government have lost theirs trust and ability to motivate them.

 

So, my answer to the question "why?" is economics and tired of war nation.

Heroism of opposing forces helped to break backbone of German economics (heavy industry) and to destroy morale of German troops and civil citizens.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

1. They accelerated the plans and started early

2. They didn't put the industry in "war mode"

3. They didn't pursue the innovations like Me262 (which was on the table 1939) because they thought it would be over quick

4. They didn't develop a strategic bomber to reach beyond the Ural

4. Corruption and internal schism within the leadership

 

my 2 cents

[sallee]

I have also made my position clear. It was sheer folly to wage war against a country whose air force was equipped with Defiants.

My Kindle Fire tried to change that to "Deviants". I rather liked that and almost left it.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Some of the more important things:

1. they lacked oil

2. they didn't put economy on war footing straight away.

3. they lacked oil.

4. ideological war on the Eastern front -> missed opportunity to convert Ukrainians to allies.

[Feathered_IV]

I always thought a big contributing factor was that Herr Hitler was very much a dilettante and in his arrogance would abandon one commitment then take up another, expecting the first to just go away. Things like embarking on a "race-war" in the east when he invasion of Britain didnt go his way.

[Revvin]

Well it's clear that once Ben Affleck had beaten the Japanese and the Americans single handedly took Normandy and captured the enigma machine it was all over for Hitler, any historian who knows their Hollywood knows this.

[Rjel]

Well it's clear that once Ben Affleck had beaten the Japanese and the Americans single handedly took Normandy and captured the enigma machine it was all over for Hitler, any historian who knows their Hollywood knows this.

Boy oh boy. That just never gets old.

[II./JG27_Rich]

You fight for your Country, eachother and that's it. There's no time for any ideology

Edited July 16, 2014 by II./JG27_Rich

[Felix58]

When Op Barbarossa failed, in that Moscow did not fall, it was all over.  

In the end a battle of logistics, science and technology, training capacity and industrial capacity that Germany and Japan could not match.

The West and the Soviets kicked their butt once they recovered from the initial shock.

 

Mind you, I think that the Germans had to throw the dice against the Soviets.

If they waited any longer the Soviets would have thrown it for them.

What if Operation Sea Lion was successful?  

Germany's best fighting in England and the huge cost in logistics and manpower.  

The German's back door would have needed one Soviet kick and the whole rotten edifice would have come down!

[IIN8II]

The two biggest reasons in my mind are:

1: Not finishing off the Brits before opening the eastern front.

2: Not bypassing Stalingrad and capturing the key resources in the Caucasus'

[Cybermat47]

1: Not finishing off the Brits before opening the eastern front.

 

That's definitely a big reason. If the Kriegsmarine's Plan Z had succeeded (it was estimated to be finished in July 1944), then the Whermacht could have strangled Britain with the Kriegsmarine, leaving a severely weakened British army for the Heer to deal with. With Britain subjugated by Germany, the western front would be secure, and the Whermacht could focus on Russia.

[sallee]

I wonder if he could have persuaded Japan to attack the Soviet Union rather than the US. That might have solved a couple of problems.

[Finkeren]

I wonder if he could have persuaded Japan to attack the Soviet Union rather than the US. That might have solved a couple of problems.

Likely not. Japan had gotten a scare at Khalkhin Gol. The Japanese Army was in no way fit to attack the USSR on their home turf. They were far too few, far too lightly equipped and did not have the tactics that acted as a force multiplier for the Germans.

 

Attacking the USSR might have helped the Germans in 1941 by binding up the Siberian armies, but there was just far too little to gain for the Japanese to want to give up their great plans for South East Asia and the Pacific and instead fight a losing battle in a war that wasn't theirs.

[Feathered_IV]

You fight for your Country, eachother and that's it. There's no time for any ideology

 

There's an awful lot of waiting about in war.  Plenty of time to wonder if you're the baddies.  

[Bladderburst]

Germany never could have won this.

 

Britain could not have been bring to its knees due to its superior navy.

 

Russia was probably threatening to attack at some point in the future, form Hitler's own mouth it was a preemptive attack.

 

Germany was just not ready to wage war. The start of the war was due to a failed gamble by an irresponsible politician.

 

The much vaunted German technical superiority is pretty much an illusion. Each of their opponents had something superior to face them in terms of equipment. People see the panther (on example) and fail to realize that the Russians actually had the equivalent before and in superior numbers and that the german "supertanks" were just an answer to these new conditions of armored warfare. WWII uboats were nearly the same as the uboats of WWI in terms of technology.

The simple facts that Germany was a racist state defeats any hope of gaining massive support from people like the ukrainians.

The German factories did not have the capacity to oppose the Russians, let alone the Americans.

Lastly, even without America it was a lost war. With America and its powerful industry, it was lost for good.

[DD_Arthur]

An interesting lecture by historian  leading apologist for all that is wrong with western foreign policy these last twenty-five years Andrew Roberts (author of The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War  and Margaret and Tony; I love you, so isn't it about time someone gave me a knighthood?)

 

 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with his premise, but it is thought provoking. 

 

Watched it. Thirty minutes of guff from the MB Avro school of history.

[Johnny_Red]

Russia was probably threatening to attack at some point in the future, form Hitler's own mouth it was a preemptive attack.

 

The Soviet Union wasn't threatening to attack. Germany and the USSR had a pact. Hitler broke the pact because he was paranoid (drug addict). He couldn't understand why the UK and it's Commonwealth stood alone after the fall of Europe. He thought the UK had a pact with either the USA or the USSR. He thought the USA didn't want to fight in another European war so he, wrongfully, thought it was the USSR. Just say no kids. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Johnny_Red

[MiloMorai]

Agh, revisionist history.

[Rjel]

Agh, revisionist history.

Ain't it grand???

[Finkeren]

I just love that "WW2 happened because Hitler was a paranoid, racist, junkie a-hole"-mentality. Really shows a depth of understanding, when you can just pin it all on a single human being. It also conveniently clears everyone else of blame.

[Bladderburst]

The Soviet Union wasn't threatening to attack. Germany and the USSR had a pact. Hitler broke the pact because he was paranoid (drug addict). He couldn't understand why the UK and it's Commonwealth stood alone after the fall of Europe. He thought the UK had a pact with either the USA or the USSR. He thought the USA didn't want to fight in another European war so he, wrongfully, thought it was the USSR. Just say no kids. 

 

 

This quote comes from Hoffman's book. (Hitler was my friend)

 

I have red elsewhere that Stalin was actually happy that the Germans were going at it since he was planning to take a bit more.

 

Stalin was actually not believing that Germany was attacking so... maybe Hitler was wrong anyway, but he actually said that it was preemptive. Maybe it was just another lie and he did not really care. Hitler knew that a war on two fronts was suicide, I think he wrote about it in his trashy book (never had the courage to finish it) so why would he get into one?

 

Ah forgot, makes better sense to say that he was insane, evil and paranoid.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Boussourir

[Finkeren]

Well Boussourir. Germany attacked Poland in alleged self defense after a faked attack on German troops by the border. Doesn't mean Poland actually planned to attack Germany.

 

It's true, that the Soviet government anticipated war with Germany sooner or later and did consider attacking themselves, but not until 1944. They didn't imagine that the Germans would be foolish enough to attack as soon as 1941, especially not in the middle of summer with so few months remaining before the frost set in.

[Bladderburst]

Well Boussourir. Germany attacked Poland in alleged self defense after a faked attack on German troops by the border. Doesn't mean Poland actually planned to attack Germany.

 

It's true, that the Soviet government anticipated war with Germany sooner or later and did consider attacking themselves, but not until 1944. They didn't imagine that the Germans would be foolish enough to attack as soon as 1941, especially not in the middle of summer with so few months remaining before the frost set in.

Don't read that I said that war in the east was Russia's fault and that the commies were the aggressors, I'm far from saying that.

 

However a clash between fascists and communists was bound to happen especially since the buffer states between the two were now gone.

[Shitigi]

they try make war with great russia lol

 

no one beat russia

 

britian, usa no one make russia bend. we make everyone scared. we are best nation ever))))

[Bladderburst]

I beg to differ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

[Shitigi]

 

I beg to differ.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

 

 

lol what make surprise yoba makes response

 

try stop reading joke stories and understand real war yoba

 

ussr win with better everything. make stronger men, make better plane, make better tank, make better every item. we win because we better. and now we make win in ukraine i think

 

sit back and make watch yoba )))))))))))

[taleks]

Shitigi, you're leading this thread to a wrong direction.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I have never understood the joy of trolling. I am narrow-minded in that way.

[MarcoRossolini]

The Soviet Union wasn't threatening to attack. Germany and the USSR had a pact. Hitler broke the pact because he was paranoid (drug addict). He couldn't understand why the UK and it's Commonwealth stood alone after the fall of Europe. He thought the UK had a pact with either the USA or the USSR. He thought the USA didn't want to fight in another European war so he, wrongfully, thought it was the USSR. Just say no kids. 

Indeed, Stalin (for once) trusted Hitler enough to assume that the attacks on the morning of Barbarossa were German generals trying to force a war without Hitler's approval.

[sallee]

they try make war with great russia lol no one beat russia britian, usa no one make russia bend. we make everyone scared. we are best nation ever))))

Pure poetry.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Germany never could have won this.

 

 

Pretty much what Boussourir said.

 

A war needs to have a clear objective to be won. If that objective is unclear, not winnable, or can only be kept in the "won" state for a limited time, then the war will be lost no matter what. I don't think I need to draw your attention to a few recent wars to see the effects.

 

Hitler wanted two things: He wanted to humiliate France after the Great War, and he wanted Lebensraum for the Germans in the East. His problem was that reaching both those objectives meant going to war against the whole bloody world. Had he settles for one or the other he might have reached his objectives and managed to hold the position. However, he wanted to do both, with inevitable result.

 

What we could discuss is what Hitler would have needed to do to win. I believe had he not attacked Denmark and Norway, and let the Western Europe be, he would eventually have found himself in a confrontation with the Soviet with the Western Allies staying neutral or even backing him rather than fighting him. He would have his Großdeutschland in the East, though he would have to swallow humble pie play nice with the French.

[DD_Arthur]

Pure poetry.

 

Really makes you want to spend hard-earned, folding money on a Russian made flight sim, don't it?

[LLv44_Mprhead]

He actually made me check how to ignore people. So Shitigi, welcome to Ignoreville! Population:you.

[sallee]

He actually made me check how to ignore people. So Shitigi, welcome to Ignoreville! Population:you.

Well, it does what it says on the tin...