LaGG-3 - Easy Kill for Axis Players (and Erich Hartmann)?

[Feldgrun]

When I want to have a quick victory, I take a 109 F4, G2 or G6 out for a spin against an AI LaGG-3. It's a quick and satisfying kill as the 20mm cannon shreds it to pieces. 

 

I reviewed the list of aircraft which comprised Erich Hartmann's 352 victories. Most of these victories came on the Ostfront, and most of those were from the weak LaGG, specifically, 111 LaGG-3s, 75 listed just as "LaGG" and one LaGG-5. That's 187 LaGG kills, or 53% of his total victories! Understanding that there may have been some misidentification in aircraft, that's a staggering number by itself. Impressive also are the number of P-39s and IL-2s that he downed. 

 

The LaGG-3 was developed in 1938, well after the far superior Bf109, or even the Hawker Hurricane (which I mention as it was also largely made of wood, like the LaGG-3). It wasn't as though the Soviets were unaware of the aircraft or tactics of the new Luftwaffe, as the Germans were flying in Russia before WWII to avoid the restrictions placed on them by the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviets apparently nicknamed the LaGG as the "Guaranteed, Varnished Coffin" which was a play on words using it's name in Russian. Why develop such a poor quality aircraft, and in such numbers (6,528)?

 

Understanding that it's a versatile aircraft, which you can load with a wide variety of bombs and guns, is it a favorite of anyone flying in any map in IL-2 GB?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

To me, it rather sounds like this "LaGG-5" is a misnamed La-5. Which makes me wonder how much of the other "LaGG's" are really La-5s as well (also see the notes at that list). Furthermore, the LaGG and Yak are similar enough that it's entirely possible that more than a few of those claims are Yaks, especially seeing that the first Yak in that list only appears in October 1944(!).

[HankCzinaski]

I like the looks of it and the cockpit is nice. I've heard it's not that terrible when you equip it with the 23 mm gun.

[Luftschiff]

I really quite like flying the LaGG honestly, but then I also love flying the Stuka and the Macchi and other things that aren't ultra 1337 gamer machines with RGB lighting and 999 octane fuel. No argument of it being particularly strong a contender vs the 109 though...

[Jaws2002]

4 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

Why develop such a poor quality aircraft, and in such numbers (6,528)?

When the war is in your house, you fight with what you have, not what you wish you had. Most countries and people forget this.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Eisenfaustus]

The Soviets in general had great engineers but lacked the trained workforce to execute the designs properly. And even when the airframe was built well many pilots still had to cope with missing instruments, radios and gunsights. 
 

Even though- the LaGG 3 still beats the I16s and even I15s it was built to replace. 
 

And the poor performance of the soviet airforce was only partially caused by bad equipment - doctrine, leadership and training were more decisive. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

53 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

The Soviets in general had great engineers but lacked the trained workforce to execute the designs properly.

 

The Imperial Japanese had a similar issue, coupled with doctrinal misconceptions, which also plagued the VVS early in the war.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I like the Lagg3. Its underpowered but tough and easy to fly. Give it a powerful radial engine and, well.

[RyanR]

3 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

And the poor performance of the soviet airforce was only partially caused by bad equipment - doctrine, leadership and training were more decisive. 

 

Agreed. One of the great takeaways from Great Battles as a sim, is how the Soviets improved in all these aspects as the war progressed. 

 

-Ryan

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

The LaGG-3 has the same wings as the Yak and La-5. It is very easy to mistaken them in combat.

 

To me, LaGG in Hartmann claim list refers more to any Lavochkin product

[CUJO_1970]

Would love to have some early LaGGs added to the sim with earlier engines and armament.

 

 

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

They are flying brick.

[Guster]

10 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

To me, it rather sounds like this "LaGG-5" is a misnamed La-5. Which makes me wonder how much of the other "LaGG's" are really La-5s as well (also see the notes at that list). Furthermore, the LaGG and Yak are similar enough that it's entirely possible that more than a few of those claims are Yaks, especially seeing that the first Yak in that list only appears in October 1944(!).

 

That makes sense. According to Hartmann himself he relied very much on hit and run tactics, and when you come screaming down through clouds and haze at nearly 800 km/h with a few seconds to pick a target, I suppose you can easily mistake a Yak for a LaGG, possibly even a MiG, and I guess it doesn't really matter as long as it's an enemy fighter.

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I like the Lagg3. Its underpowered but tough and easy to fly. Give it a powerful radial engine and, well.

Interesting, as, in my opinion, the La-5 is the easiest AI aircraft to kill. But maybe it is only the AI not flying the La-5 to its strengths.

[Eisenfaustus]

26 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Interesting, as, in my opinion, the La-5 is the easiest AI aircraft to kill. But maybe it is only the AI not flying the La-5 to its strengths.

I myself have more trouble fighting in the La-5f then in the LaGG-3 which surprises me even more. 

[Guest deleted@219798]

I flew a bomber escort mission in a LaGG-3 and managed to shoot down 3 109 F4s. Once I got on their tails it wasn't all that hard to stay there, so it can't be all that bad. It's not a Yak but it performs okay.

[PaladinX]

And myself, the worst online fighter pilot ever, made my first kill since weeks in a LAGG some days before...

This bird is the best ever! ?

 

 

(Who finds the sarcasm may keep it...)

[312_Lazy]

1. LaGG-3 utilized less strategic materials than other planes. From what we know today this was one of the reasons the plane was adopted for mass production in 1940.

 

2. LaGG-3 was designed to use 1350 hp M-106 engine. This engine didn't make it into serial production. It's easy to see LaGG-3 would perform much better with this additional power. (This finally happened when ASh-82 was fit in.)

 

3. LaGG-3 was superior in performance to Hurricane and was more or less equal to Bf 109 E (which USSR received from Germany before the war). The problem for Russians was that Luftwaffe already equipped most of its fighter units with much better Bf 109 F when Germany invaded Russia.

 

 

Quote

That makes sense. According to Hartmann himself he relied very much on hit and run tactics, and when you come screaming down through clouds and haze at nearly 800 km/h with a few seconds to pick a target, I suppose you can easily mistake a Yak for a LaGG, possibly even a MiG, and I guess it doesn't really matter as long as it's an enemy fighter.

If you read Hartmann's memoirs closely you will find that's not how he fought. He found high speed dive attacks ineffective and he preferred surprise as his main tactics.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

4 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Interesting, as, in my opinion, the La-5 is the easiest AI aircraft to kill. But maybe it is only the AI not flying the La-5 to its strengths.

 

Then you have never fought an AI 262.

 

The AI struggles with energy aircrafts that lose much speed in turns. Like the La5, P-47 etc etc. 

[jeanba]

40 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Then you have never fought an AI 262.

 

T

I confirm, 1/2 of my kills in my Spit IX campaign (PWCG) is 262.

 

Back to the Lagg3, it is a correct ground attack plane and ok also against bombers

Against ennemy fighters, you can occasionnally trap them, but I usually avoid the fight

Edited January 17, 2022 by jeanba

[RyanR]

5 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

I myself have more trouble fighting in the La-5f then in the LaGG-3 which surprises me even more. 

 

The early La-5 is a total dog, but the -5N is really fun in BoK.

 

-Ryan

[SAG]

I really like the lagg with the 23mm its not the best fighter in any aspect but still one of my favorites. I don't use it vs late-war fighter for obvious reasons though.

[CUJO_1970]

Not sure the 23mm or 37mm was ever used much on our LaGG.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Many people struggle with the La5, it bleeds speed really quickly in tight turns and also, you dont need to keep your oil rad and outlet shutters fully open non stop which causes additional drag. 

 

Thats why some people will find the Lagg3 better but if you fly the La5 properly, there's no denying it is the better plane of the 2. 

[jeanba]

2 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Not sure the 23mm or 37mm was ever used much on our LaGG.

The 37 mm saw limited use over Stalingrad (and you can play the career)

I don't think the 23 mm had any significant use

[ShamrockOneFive]

22 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

The LaGG-3 was developed in 1938, well after the far superior Bf109, or even the Hawker Hurricane (which I mention as it was also largely made of wood, like the LaGG-3). It wasn't as though the Soviets were unaware of the aircraft or tactics of the new Luftwaffe, as the Germans were flying in Russia before WWII to avoid the restrictions placed on them by the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviets apparently nicknamed the LaGG as the "Guaranteed, Varnished Coffin" which was a play on words using it's name in Russian. Why develop such a poor quality aircraft, and in such numbers (6,528)?

 

There's some dispute over if the "Guaranteed, Varnished Coffin" was an actual nickname used or something invented after the war in some tall tale.

 

In the late 30's, the Soviets were faced with a resurgent German Air Force and a Soviet force that had been weakened by Stalin's purges and the relative old age of the machines that they were flying. In the early 30's, the Soviet Air Force was the most advanced in the world but it doesn't take long to fall off the top especially in the early days of rapid advances in aviation technology.

 

So combine these with a sudden need to develop a new generation of fighter (which lead to the MiG-1/3, Yak-1/7 and LaGG-3) and then an sudden and urgent need to relocate the entire Soviet industrial base beyond the range of German bombers and you have a kind of perfect storm. By the time they solved a lot of the problems they had moved on to the La-5 but the late model Series 66 was actually quite a decent fighter.

[jeanba]

It can be added that the production quality was very bad.

For instance, the max speed of an early test version was around 570 km/h and a corresponding production plane could barely reach 520 km/h

[Jaws2002]

I think they did pretty good considering the fact, that the Russians were in the process of moving their factories, thousands of kilometers east.

[312_Lazy]

https://en.topwar.ru/157098-boevye-samolety-lagg-3-grob-ili-rojal.html

[the_emperor]

The late Lagg-3 (probably the 66 series) seems to be no slouch and could be the fastet of all M-105PF engine driven planes (though seems to have a lower FTH than the Yaks):

[Krisu]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:32 PM, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

They are flying brick.

 

Have you seen Rambo fly one of them, pretty impressive what he could do 

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

2 hours ago, Krisu said:

 

Have you seen Rambo fly one of them, pretty impressive what he could do 

I was speaking about the first LaGG-3 much more heavier with more wood and MG's. Series 29 and 66 is fine