What to when completely outnumbered (tactical help for an average career pilot)

[KevPBur]

Firstly, I am an average pilot, I usually get 1-3 kills and/or damage enemy planes and send them packing in each mission. Hitting anything on the ground, however, is another story for another day!

 

I have had a few missions recently in each of my ongoing pilot careers both Russian and German that seem to present an impossible challenge so wondering  what the correct approach should be.

 

Flying escort in a flight of 4 or 5 planes, I'm not flight leader. We run into a first enemy flight of similar size. My flight do their thing and engage whilst the bombers/attackers keep on to target. Meanwhile the enemy flights keep coming.

Last night in a 109F2, the first enemy flight of Migs draw all the escorts. I initially damaged and scared off one with a zoom and boom trying to catch up with the bombers and get above them. Then 2 further flights of Yaks-1's and Lagg's appeared and started ripping up the bombers. I tried to zoom a couple of enemy on passes of the bombers but the Yaks soon worked out my strategy and were waiting up top and picked me off as I climbed back up.

Meanwhile the rest of my flight were still busy with the Migs.

I reflew the mission a few times and tried zooming and staying down low but whatever I tried got me killed before I could even get over friendly territory.

The mission, of course, always fails, even before I am shot down, as too many bombers go down.

 

My question to the group is what is the correct tactic in the careers?

Whilst not flight leader so having no sway over the flight, should I:

• Abandon the bombers to their fate and run when completely outnumbered by enemy fighters
• Stay with my flight whatever and again ignore the bombers, leaving them to their fate
• Once the mission failed message has been displayed, run as fast as you can (I tried this but the Yaks are so fast when I'm not flying them!)
• Some other brilliant option I haven't thought of.

[grcurmudgeon]

As soon as you are at a disadvantage you can't get out of, run for it. If the AI is fixated on you already, they're going to follow. If not, you may be able to extend and get another high-speed pass in. But definitely don't get into a slow turn fight when outnumbered, someone will be getting on your tail while you are trying to line up someone else.

 

If they do follow, get low and fast. The AI has a hard time landing hits on you at tree-top level, but keep an eye on your 6, juke as needed, and try to find friendly AAA emplacements as you head for the nearest airbase.

 

Don't worry about mission success or failure, it means nothing if you are dead.

[BladeMeister]

RUN! FOREST! RUN!

 

S!Blade<><

[Matt-357]

Hmm... sounds like it may be a Kobayashi Maru test.

[KevPBur]

12 minutes ago, Matt-357 said:

Hmm... sounds like it may be a Kobayashi Maru test.

 

I had to look that reference up but yep, that about sums up my dilema.

Run for the hills seems to be the concensus so far. Anyone have any clue what the historical order/ behaviour for escort pilots was.

I assume the order should really come from flight leader whatever

[ShamrockOneFive]

53 minutes ago, KevPBur said:

 

I had to look that reference up but yep, that about sums up my dilema.

Run for the hills seems to be the concensus so far. Anyone have any clue what the historical order/ behaviour for escort pilots was.

I assume the order should really come from flight leader whatever

 

You are going to be faced with no-win scenarios in WWII air combat. Escort fighters jobs are to protect the bombers but once contact has been made with the enemy then things tend to fall apart. If you're flying a pilot Career and the goal is to survive the mission and fly the next one you eventually have to weigh your tactical options and consider retreat - especially if you're low on ammo, damaged, or otherwise positioned poorly.

 

I usually keep on fighting but even then I tend to look for an opportunity to break initial contact, reposition, and then reengage with speed/altitude.

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, KevPBur said:

Some other brilliant option I haven't thought of.

Check on the mission map where's plenty of friendy flak closest to your waypoints. If the zombies follow you after you make a run for it, that is where you are heading. Keep in circling there and let your friends deal with your issue.

[RyanR]

 

I always choose to be "flight leader from the beginning". That way we start with a decent altitude advantage (not absurd, but reasonable).

 

There is a bit of a "dance" as each flight jockeys for position before the first bullet flies. The only thing you really can do is keep judging "energy states" of the bad guys and be willing to break off from what might seem to be a sure kill, and fight to regain some better position relative to the other bad guys. If a bandit dives, do not follow.... ever. The other thing I realized that's important is to get damage into the enemies to get them out of the fight, or at least reduce their performance. Snap shots will do it.

 

I'll often find myself clearing my squadmate's tails as they go after bandits.

 

Though, we've all been there... at some point, you dive for the deck and bail for home. If I don't have the speed advantage, I'm flying below the treetops.

 

-Ryan

[PatrickAWlson]

Pretty much answered.  Run and seek help from friendly planes or friendly AAA.   Two more thoughts:

 

If you are escorting bombers they can be like AAA batteries.  Concern yourself with survival first while trying to stay close.  Take snap shots as they become available.

 

Do not remain engaged to finish the kill.  That is how the next one gets you.  If you hurt one just move on.  Survival first, scoring second.  Damaging enemy planes is also a good way to help your AI flight mates.  If there are active enemies about, you worry about them and let friendly AI finish the cripples.

Edited January 12, 2022 by PatrickAWlson

[40plus]

[KevPBur]

Thanks all,

seems like I have been doing vagely the right things, just not well enough to stay alive.

Looks like I need to get better at spotting the best time to leave the party and ensure I know where the nearest emergency exit is at all times!

 

 

[Feathered_IV]

A 360 degree turn will shake off any AI.  It’s like they have a cone of forward vision and once you get outside of that they lose you and straighten out to go wobbling off until they reacquire you or somebody else. 

[KevPBur]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:21 PM, Feathered_IV said:

A 360 degree turn will shake off any AI.  It’s like they have a cone of forward vision and once you get outside of that they lose you and straighten out to go wobbling off until they reacquire you or somebody else. 

 

Is that behaviour from the ai exactly what is being suggested as the best tactic for the player by most of the previous comments? I.E. Never continue to turn with a target plane as you leave yourself at an energy disadvantage to any other enemy plane in the area. Obviously, this may depend on the verious plane types involved in the engargement. Certainly for me continuing to target fixate and following for too many turns is often my downfall in a crowded sky.

 

So I'd say, good programming of the ai, to get them to behave tactically correctly.

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, KevPBur said:

 

Certainly for me continuing to target fixate and following for too many turns is often my downfall in a crowded sky.

 

Me too.  Quite often I give perfectly sound advice and then fail miserably in following it myself.

[CAFulcrum]

2 hours ago, KevPBur said:

 

Is that behaviour from the ai exactly what is being suggested as the best tactic for the player by most of the previous comments? I.E. Never continue to turn with a target plane as you leave yourself at an energy disadvantage to any other enemy plane in the area. Obviously, this may depend on the verious plane types involved in the engargement. Certainly for me continuing to target fixate and following for too many turns is often my downfall in a crowded sky.

 

So I'd say, good programming of the ai, to get them to behave tactically correctly.

 

That's how it felt to me, the ai seem to do a lot more thinking and will sometimes disengage and maintain their energy instead of pursuing you.  Big furballs are a bit like a game of chess, sometimes the worst place you can be is on the tail of another plane.

Best thing is to make quick kills and generally not engage if there are a bunch of enemy planes around.  I've noticed the AQMB likes to send in additional waves of high altitude fighters in the middle of missions that makes things worse, so in general the best thing is to do as well as you can without taking unnecessary risks.

Two things about the ai though -- they do still like to try to turn away from you at max-delta so you can stay on their tail without worrying too much about defensive maneuvers as they'll keep trying to turn even when you have guns on them, and also the ai will eventually disengage now if you keep running, so even if it feels hopeless, turning for friendly lines and trying to drag them as far away from their 'mission' as possible is a viable strategy (in the past they would just follow you all the way back to your airbase).

[Thad]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:04 AM, grcurmudgeon said:

As soon as you are at a disadvantage you can't get out of, run for it. If the AI is fixated on you already, they're going to follow. If not, you may be able to extend and get another high-speed pass in. But definitely don't get into a slow turn fight when outnumbered, someone will be getting on your tail while you are trying to line up someone else.

 

If they do follow, get low and fast. The AI has a hard time landing hits on you at tree-top level, but keep an eye on your 6, juke as needed, and try to find friendly AAA emplacements as you head for the nearest airbase.

 

Don't worry about mission success or failure, it means nothing if you are dead.

Salutations,

 

Only attack when you have the advantage. Once the advantage is lost follow the directions above.