P-51 B better than D!

[ubik_2008]

It might be just me, but it seems to have a number of advantages over the D.

It appears to turn tighter, it seems to be a little faster, it is more stable. When equipped with the malcolm hood, visibility is excellent.

So for me it wins the best allied fighter award?

[Jaws2002]

The D got the leading edge extension for the tail, to improve stability. It's strange the B to be more stable than the D.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jaws2002

[ShamrockOneFive]

16 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

The D got the leading edge extension for the tail, to improve stability. It's strange the B to be more stable than the D.

 

The reason it needed that stability fix is because of the cut down fuselage from the bubble canopy. That fillet was to try and attempt to restore lost stability from the A/B/C models.

[DBFlyguy]

The B is nice but the game doesn't replicate some of the issues it had that made the D overall a better aircraft.  One that definitely comes to mind is the B's major issue with gun jams due to the way the guns were installed, that isn't depicted in game at all.  Also, most USAAF B's had to deal visibility issues with the "bird cage" canopy...while most players are just gonna pick the Malcolm hood whenever they fly the B which just isn't historical.  Don't get me wrong, I love the B model we have but I fear it's gonna create some unrealistic views of it, in comparison to the D.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, ubik_2008 said:

It might be just me, but it seems to have a number of advantages over the D.

It appears to turn tighter, it seems to be a little faster, it is more stable. When equipped with the malcolm hood, visibility is excellent.

So for me it wins the best allied fighter award?

 

Yeah the B model was quite an excellent aircraft. The D model addressed some of the B's shortcomings, not all of which have been modeled. For example, the B model's wings were thinner than on the D model and that meant that the .50cals needed to be installed on an angle. That caused excessive gun jams during high G turns. So far as I know that's not modeled (someone please correct me if it is - I haven't noted it).

 

The D model of course added two more machine guns because pilots felt that four was inadequate. And the all around visibility in the P-51D is better than all but maybe the Yak-1B/9 series which is a tremendous advantage as well. The B of course has more restricted visibility although in the sim its not that bad.

2 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

The B is nice but the game doesn't replicate some of the issues it had that made the D overall a better aircraft.  One that definitely comes to mind is the B's major issue with gun jams due to the way the guns were installed, that isn't depicted in game at all.  Also, most USAAF B's had to deal visibility issues with the "bird cage" canopy...while most players are just gonna pick the Malcolm hood whenever they fly the B which just isn't historical.  Don't get me wrong, I love the B model we have but I fear it's gonna create some unrealistic views of it, in comparison to the D.

 

On that last point, that'll be up to scenario designers to give us those challenges in multiplayer. And I suspect that single player career modes (for Normandy) will restrict it based on typical usage so we're in a bit of a honeymoon period where were seeing the P-51B at its best possible.

Edited January 10, 2022 by ShamrockOneFive

[Jaws2002]

11 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

The reason it needed that stability fix is because of the cut down fuselage from the bubble canopy. That fillet was to try and attempt to restore lost stability from the A/B/C models.

 

 So why was that retrofitted to some of the B and C airframes?

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jaws2002

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

 

 So why was that retrofitted to some of the B airframes?

Because it also added additional stability to the B airframes. Something discovered after they went in search of a solution on the D model.

[DBFlyguy]

 

 

 

[LukeFF]

27 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

The B is nice but the game doesn't replicate some of the issues it had that made the D overall a better aircraft.  One that definitely comes to mind is the B's major issue with gun jams due to the way the guns were installed, that isn't depicted in game at all.  Also, most USAAF B's had to deal visibility issues with the "bird cage" canopy...while most players are just gonna pick the Malcolm hood whenever they fly the B which just isn't historical.  Don't get me wrong, I love the B model we have but I fear it's gonna create some unrealistic views of it, in comparison to the D.

 

Yes, but the gun jamming problem was eventually fixed. It wasn't some unresolvable problem. 

[DBFlyguy]

40 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, but the gun jamming problem was eventually fixed. It wasn't some unresolvable problem. 

Yeah, in the P-51D.  The whole "field mod" using B-26 belt parts on the P-51B was a stop gap.

Edited January 10, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[Sandmarken]

42 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, but the gun jamming problem was eventually fixed. It wasn't some unresolvable problem. 

Seems like the game engine is totalty capable of simulating gun jamming to some degree atleast. In flying circus planes they jam all the time. Dont know why it was chosen to only happen in ww1 planes?

Edited January 10, 2022 by Sandmarken

[=621=Samikatz]

5 minutes ago, Sandmarken said:

Seems like the game engine is totalty capable of simulating gun jamming to some degree atleast. In flying circus planes they jam all the time. Dont know why it was chosen to only happen in ww1 planes?

 

I believe they're misfires in the WW1 birds

[ubik_2008]

But apart from what is or is not simulated in the sim, it appears that the superiority of one type over the other was a matter of debate back in the day as well. The main drawback of the B type is the less powerful gunnery, and that is quite apparent in the sim. Only mitigated by the fact that the 12.7 mm are not much of a punch anyway, at least compared with the Spit IX 20 mm cannons 

[Sandmarken]

43 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

I believe they're misfires in the WW1 birds

Aha I always thought it was the guns jamming. 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

Seems like the game engine is totalty capable of simulating gun jamming to some degree atleast. In flying circus planes they jam all the time. Dont know why it was chosen to only happen in ww1 planes?

 

There have never, ever been jams in the WWI planes, only misfires. 

[BladeMeister]

14 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

There have never, ever been jams in the WWI planes, only misfires. 

Ok, I am confused. I Honestly thought that using a little hammer(only Hollywood?) or banging on the loading mechanism was to release a jam. Please educate me?

 

S!Blade<><

[SvAF/F16_Dark_P]

If you get a jam or a misfire on a gun, you have to rack it aka you have to pull the bolt back and put a new round in the chamber

 

When you do that the bolt pulls out the bullet and loads a new one

Edited January 11, 2022 by SvAF/F16_Dark_P

[Avimimus]

Yeah, it is just manually cycling the gun to remove the defective round that failed to fire.

 

Clearing a true jam would require landing, or flying straight and level for a while. IMHO, it'd be interesting to have the occasional true jam (as a difficulty option) as it'd definitely show the benefit of having two guns. Honestly, we're told that we aren't getting jams for WWII aircraft for gameplay purposes (same reason for no random failures) but I suspect that, if the devs had enough information to model them accurately they wouldn't be able to resist. ? At least based on my reading of their wonderful personalities.

 

Anyway, something which is more possible to model:

1) Clearing a misfire requires taking a hand off of the flight stick (which means less ability to put muscle forces into the control-surfaces - and thus potentially not being able to turn as sharply).

2) Reloading Lewis guns was very difficult in high speed due to wind (and outside of level flight)... and given the limits on the ability to lean out of the cockpit at higher windspeeds, they already have some of the required code!

 

Of course, an even more obvious improvement would be to simply give us separate binds (or keyboard controls) for the ring and bar of WW1 turrets... (so they aren't tied to the mouse control of the pintle) - that'd be useful.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling... what were we talking about?

[357th_KW]

To get back to the OP’s point, the real weaknesses of the P-51B were poor visibility, poor cockpit heating, and a marginal armament in an unreliable mounting arrangement.  The P-51D fixed all those factors for a very slight cost in performance - one which was more then offset by some of the advancements that became common after its introduction: 150 octane fuel, G-suits, and gyro gunsights.

 

In game, there is very little difference in performance, but IMO it’s more then offset by the edge in visibility and armament.

[migmadmarine]

6 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

Ok, I am confused. I Honestly thought that using a little hammer(only Hollywood?) or banging on the loading mechanism was to release a jam. Please educate me?

 

S!Blade<><

To be clear, they meant that there are only jams in the WWI panes in game, in reality both happened, and the unjamming hammer was a thing. 

[Sandmarken]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There have never, ever been jams in the WWI planes, only misfires. 

I understand, but why is this misfires only simulated in flying circus? Did it never happen in ww2 planes? The animation for reloading the guns are there in many planes (if you press alt + R default i think. )

[jeanba]

On the Mediterranean front, some pilots kept (52nd FG for instance) their P51B mounts until the end of the war, rather than replacing it with the P51D

I just read it there :

Edited January 11, 2022 by jeanba

[dannytherat]

38 minutes ago, jeanba said:

On the Mediterranean front, some pilots kept (52nd FG for instance) their P51B mounts until the end of the war, rather than replacing it with the P51D

 

I've read (although I can't quite remember where) that some RAF pilots who were used to their Mustang IIIs were less than enthusiastic about the bubble-topped Mustang IVs when they started to transition onto them as they didn't like the extra weight and slight speed reduction that came with the new type.

[Trooper117]

2 hours ago, dannytherat said:

RAF pilots who were used to their Mustang IIIs were less than enthusiastic about the bubble-topped Mustang IVs when they started to transition onto them as they didn't like the extra weight and slight speed reduction that came with the new type.

 

Of course... we are British old boy... and we like to stand in queues for days!

[Guster]

10 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

2) Reloading Lewis guns was very difficult in high speed due to wind (and outside of level flight)... and given the limits on the ability to lean out of the cockpit at higher windspeeds, they already have some of the required code!

 

In good old ROF I've always found it rather amusing that I was able to change the magazine of the upper gun while doing acrobatics and fire the fixed gun at an enemy plane and take a sip of tea all at the same time.

[BM357_TinMan]

I have not tried the B in this sim yet but, In CFS3, and the OG IL2 (up to pacific fighters), I, personally, perfered the B/C over the D as, in both sims, it was modeled as a MUCH better "turn and burner" than the D.  And most of the MP engagements on the servers I was on at the time were TnB engagements.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think that is one of the benefits of the earlier Mustang, and a good combat aircraft in general. You have options available to you that don't lock you into a rigid operational regimen.  Things don't always go as planned you know 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

P-51B is definetly the nicer Plane, the D the better Fighter. The B is like the 109F-4, the D is more like the G-6. Uglier, slower, but more practical and War like.
 

[CountZero]

data from specs for D model is old and wrong for airplane we have now in game, using 67 or 75" with -7 engine they are almost same at speed on all alts, differance is minimal, remove 2 guns and ammo and youll get probably similar turn and climb, so D model is mutch better as it gives you better visability for similar performance, only if your able to use 81" you get any meaningfule boost in performance, and that is limited to few alts.

[jeanba]

I reread the" Avions 244" article (see above) :

 

Some pilots from 52nd FG wanted top keep the P51B because they said that the 51D had a tendancy to lose wing during hard dives or maneuvers

Edited January 11, 2022 by jeanba

[Confused_2018]

I remember reading this discussion over ww2aircraft.

 

B was 400lbs lighter?

Gun jamming mostly solved by 1944?

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/how-much-better-was-the-p-51-b-c-over-the-d-model.51464/

 

Edit: Another argument for fixing the Malcom hood visibility

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/how-much-better-was-the-p-51-b-c-over-the-d-model.51464/post-1486961

Edited January 11, 2022 by Confused_2018

[Bremspropeller]

Lots of interesting info in those threads!

[migmadmarine]

8 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

I understand, but why is this misfires only simulated in flying circus? Did it never happen in ww2 planes? The animation for reloading the guns are there in many planes (if you press alt + R default i think. )

I imagine for the same reason we don't have random engine failures, it can be considered a bad game/sim mechanic since a it wouldn't strictly be clear that you were the victim of a historically accurate failure rate, or a bug which would put off a lot of players. I personally (and I'm sure there are loads of others) would love to have this available as an option, but ah well. 

[ICDP]

20 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Yeah the B model was quite an excellent aircraft. The D model addressed some of the B's shortcomings, not all of which have been modeled. For example, the B model's wings were thinner than on the D model and that meant that the .50cals needed to be installed on an angle. That caused excessive gun jams during high G turns. So far as I know that's not modeled (someone please correct me if it is - I haven't noted it).

 

Just to clarify/correct a myth on the P51B.  It did not have thinner wings, the only change to the wings was the leading edge change on the D.  The canted gun fitment was simply to accomodate the 20mm Hispanos cannons.

Edited January 11, 2022 by ICDP

[DBFlyguy]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

 the D is more like the G-6. Uglier, slower, but more practical and War like.
 

 

 

?.....  Ugly!?!?! ?........Blasphemer!

 

Be glad I'm not a mod, I'd ban you to the end of eternity and then some for saying some utter nonsense like that! ?

 

 

[jeanba]

2 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

 

 

?.....  Ugly!?!?! ?........Blasphemer!

 

Be glad I'm not a mod, I'd ban you to the end of eternity and then some for saying some utter nonsense like that! ?

 

 

As a G6 lover, I agree

[MeoW.Scharfi]

22 hours ago, ubik_2008 said:

It might be just me, but it seems to have a number of advantages over the D.

It appears to turn tighter, it seems to be a little faster, it is more stable. When equipped with the malcolm hood, visibility is excellent.

So for me it wins the best allied fighter award?

 

It's lighter, its more aerodynamic than the D variant.

 

Yet i prefer the P51D a little bit more because i feel muuuuch more saver in it. I can check my six a loooot better. So yes you can wreck ppl in the P51B but D is the survival plane and it has a G suit.

☺️

 

And i consider the P51D as more beautiful. ☺️

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by MeoW.Scharfi

[DBFlyguy]

B or D, the Mustang IS a beautiful machine! Now, the H... that's a completely different story ?

 

 

And yes...before our cousins across the pond get triggered from the video, we know the Merlin is a British engine and the Mustang was designed initially from a British requirement ?

 

I'm still holding out hope that all of the merlin engine sounds we have in the game eventually get a complete rework to really make these aircraft sing and sound like they should.

Edited January 11, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[Rjel]

2 hours ago, DBFlyguy said:

B or D, the Mustang IS a beautiful machine! Now, the H... that's a completely different story ?

 

 

And yes...before our cousins across the pond get triggered from the video, we know the Merlin is a British engine and the Mustang was designed initially from a British requirement ?

 

I'm still holding out hope that all of the merlin engine sounds we have in the game eventually get a complete rework to really make these aircraft sing and sound like they should.

Nothing will ever peel me away from thinking the P-51D is my ideal of a WWII fighter plane. I dreamed about seeing one in real life for so long that when I finally did at Oshkosh in 1984, I just stood there slack jawed as she took off. What a sight! What a sound it made! I love our new B. She's a dream too. Still sleek, fast and agile. So few in numbers when introduced, the B carried the fight to Germany and the Luftwaffe. Those early to mid 1944 missions were flown by some of the best pilots this country has ever produced.

 

BUUUUUTTTTT... I do wish some how, some way, we'd see a P-51H in a quality sim like Great Battles. It still looks like a Mustang and it's oh so fast.

[[CPT]Crunch]

The guns were no longer an issue by 44, the M2 was fixed by this time period with its revision capable of lifting and feed its own belt with a consistent 35 pounds of belt lift and feed force.  The original M2 air gun version couldn't do that, it had belt feeding issues under any lifting load, not just G loading.  It wasn't simply a problem of angle, the gun itself was originally at fault.  Hence four major revisions and versions of it were eventually produced throughout the war.  This was part of the first revision.

 

The guns weren't suffering from jams, the ammo belts were separating from the feed mechanism, and that was highly problematic and demanded a fast solution.  The Mustang wasn't the only aircraft suffering the issue, just the most noticeable due to the increased pull on the belt to feed because of the angle.

Edited January 11, 2022 by [CPT]Crunch