Who shot down Emil Lang?

[AWC]

There seems to be two conflicting accounts of this event on 3 September 1944.

 

According to Caldwell in JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943–1945, he was shot down by P-51 Mustangs of 55th Fighter Group 338th Squadron. However, according to Thomas and Davey in Griffon Spitfire Aces, he was shot down by RAF Spitfires.

 

Which one is more likely? I will be basing a video on the results discussed.

 

Soto

[jeanba]

Shore confirmed he was shot down by a Spitfire Mk XII

[CUJO_1970]

He was shot down flying a defective machine he should have left at the airfield...and it cost him his life.

[AWC]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, jeanba said:

Shore confirmed he was shot down by a Spitfire Mk XII

Any more info about this?

[jeanba]

1 hour ago, Lemsip said:

Any more info about this?

I read this in this book:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/2nd-tactical-air-force/author/shores-christopher-thomas-chris/

Need to reread

Edited January 7, 2022 by jeanba

[AWC]

10 hours ago, jeanba said:

I read this in this book:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/2nd-tactical-air-force/author/shores-christopher-thomas-chris/

Need to reread

Thanks, any chance you can send a photo of the page that covers the action where he was killed?

[357th_KW]

Caldwell has a more in depth explanation of his theory that responds to Chris Shores’ in the more recent edition of his work.  I’ll try to upload some stuff for you when I’m back home this weekend.

 

 

[AWC]

On 1/14/2022 at 7:57 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

Caldwell has a more in depth explanation of his theory that responds to Chris Shores’ in the more recent edition of his work.  I’ll try to upload some stuff for you when I’m back home this weekend.

Thanks that would be great

[sevenless]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:51 AM, Lemsip said:

Thanks, any chance you can send a photo of the page that covers the action where he was killed?

 

Here you go:

 

 

from: 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol.2: Breakout to Bodenplatte - July 1944 to January 1945: v. 2: Amazon.co.uk: Thomas, Chris, Shores, Christopher: 9781903223413: Books

[CUJO_1970]

Lang was flying a 190 with gear problems that day...they could not get the the gear to remain retracted on the ground as it was undergoing maintenance...this is from Caldwell's JG/26 book.

 

Lang's wingman eyewitness as seeing the gear extended in flight on Lang's aircraft prior to him going down.

 

[357th_KW]

Adding to this, here is the combat report of Lt. Col. John Mcginn who was leading the 338th FS that day.

 

There are some reports from the 38th FS available online as well, but sadly I haven't found any of the others from the 338th.

[PatrickAWlson]

These sorts of things can be debated forever.  All manner of confusion can be seen in WWI claims.  In WWII, with so many planes in the air, relatively small personal markings, action spread over a much wider area,  and everything taking place at 3x the speed of WWI, it becomes exponentially more difficult.

 

One point the authors make was the location of the claim.  While that is a data point, it is not conclusive.  The idea that a pilot would know exactly where he was in Belgium is pretty optimistic. 

 

Spitfire or Mustang?  In WWI they didn't even get the number of wings right.  In WWII it's pretty easy to mistake a Spitfire for a Mustang for an Me109 for a LaGG for whatever.  When I fly the sim I often have no idea what I shot down.  I know it was the other side because it had a red dot over it.  Quite often I have to look at the in game debrief to see what it really was.  Pretty sure identification was more difficult for real pilots actually fighting for their lives.

 

BTW: Lang's wingman called out P-47s  

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Spitfire or Mustang?  In WWI they didn't even get the number of wings right.  In WWII it's pretty easy to mistake a Spitfire for a Mustang for an Me109 for a LaGG for whatever.  When I fly the sim I often have no idea what I shot down.  I know it was the other side because it had a red dot over it.  Quite often I have to look at the in game debrief to see what it really was.  Pretty sure identification was more difficult for real pilots actually fighting for their lives.

 

Yes, it was a very common thing. It's a routine matter in the Black Cross / Red Star books to read an account where a pilot claims he shot down, say, a LaGG-3, when in reality it was a Yak. Heck, you had quite a few claims as late as the winter of 1942-43 where German pilot claimed to engage MiG-3s, even though that plane had largely been withdrawn from the front by that point.