Having fun in CloD/Tobruk

[Pinguim]

Hi there, I've been making some videos of my forays into multiplayer. This one was a lucky sortie in the VCAF Tobruk server.

 

 

[Pinguim]

This time with the quad-cannon Hurricane. Not too fast, but great nose authority and small turn radius. Kudos to the Tomahawk pilot, brought them lower and managed to evade long enough to let me get a nice gun solution.

 

[Pinguim]

This time, facing an enemy player squadron in TWC server. I've been lucky with the Hurri so far! I got the escort but it did manage to protect the bombers.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Pinguim

[Pinguim]

Had a thrilling sortie with bigboy beau online, returned safely thanks to its structural resistance (and lack of enemy's cannon ammo) and to MDC.

 

[Pinguim]

Who said the Italian guns are inefficient? You just gotta believe in yourself ??

 

[5th_Hellrider]

I would not be wrong, but it seems to me that your air filter is closed. You can also open it at low altitude on the Channel. It doesn't give you a lot more power, but a little (very little).

 

The Spit V out-turns and out-climbs the Macchi, and it manteins better the energy. 

So a fight started with same energy will hardly see 202 winning.

 

So good job there.

 

[FTC_Karaya]

Indeed need to remember to open the air filter to get max power out of the engine. Failure to do so will cost you about 0.05ata worth of manifold pressure.

I've been guilty of it myself on TWC and have to remind myself everytime I get into the Macchi.

 

On 4/5/2022 at 3:31 PM, 5th_Hellrider said:

So a fight started with same energy will hardly see 202 winning.

 

But at worst it should end in a draw because with WEP and 2400rpm you'll outdive and outrun any Spitfire below around 5000m.

Outclimbing might be possible if speed is kept up (300kmh and higher) but I havent made any tests so not entirely sure on that.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Karaya

[Pinguim]

Guilty as charged! ?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Pinguim

[Pinguim]

I've been checking the Osprey book "Spitfire V vs. C.202 Folgore - Malta 1942" after Karaya mentioned it and, coincidentally, Italian pilots also weren't known for diving/climbing away:

Quote

They were also known for their unpredictability during combat, preferring to employ their aerobatic skills when engaging the enemy rather than the more simplified and effective dive-and-zoom tactics used by their German and British counterparts

Quote

(...) they try to do clever aerobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the ‘Jerries’ will run. (British ace George Beurling)

 

(of course doesn't mean we have to use outdated tactics in the sim! just found it interesting)

[FTC_Karaya]

That has to do with the fighter arms outdated tactics and mindset, coming straight out of WWI.

The Macchi was the first truely modern monoplane in service. Before that, pilots were flying biplanes such as the CR.32 and 42 as well as open cockpit monoplanes like the Fiat G.50 and Macchi C.200. That's why their entire mindset still revolved around maneuvering close in combat. They simply hadnt had time and opportunity to develop modern tactics like the Germans did over Spain and in the early days in the West.

[Buzzsaw]

Karaya is correct.

 

Italian air combat doctrine lagged behind the Germans... they had a lot of success during the Spanish Civil war flying biplanes with turn based combat doctrine and didn't see that aerial warfare had changed with the advent of newer monoplane types.

 

The British were also more focused on turnfighting in 1939 and during the BoB, but under leadership of pilots like 'Sailor' Malan began to focus more on tactics which involved speed and altitude and by 1942 had made the switch.

 

The Soviets also were stuck in outmoded tactical schemes too at the beginning of the war... most of their leadership emphasized turnfighting... to the detriment of their success.  As the war went on, leaders such as Alexander Pokryshin advocated for different tactics although the senior non-flying Soviet leadership continued to be stuck in the past.

 

The USAAF very much followed the example of the Germans in their tactics.

[5th_Hellrider]

Yes, I agree.

 

Precisely for this reason the 202 proposed on CloD in the hands of an RA pilot would have been really ineffective. Too awkward under 300km/h and with that deadly flat spin always "around the corner".

This of course is just my personal opinion.

 

What is quite certain is that the 202 was an aircraft that did well in air battles, despite the ridiculous armament and bad tactics used. At Malta it had to fight against Spit V often too.

 

PS: unlike the RA doctrines of the time, I always try to use "dive-and-zoom" tactics (with any aircraft). I'm not very faithful to the story so...?

 

 

 

On 4/5/2022 at 8:43 PM, Karaya said:

But at worst it should end in a draw because with WEP and 2400rpm you'll outdive and outrun any Spitfire below around 5000m.

Outclimbing might be possible if speed is kept up (300kmh and higher) but I havent made any tests so not entirely sure on that.

 

Yes. In Macchi you have the chance to disengage and escape. It's a bit faster than the Spit below 5000m, as you mentioned. 

 

About of outclimbing at "high" speed, I'm not sure, maybe yes, but very small. You will hardly have a chance to do a chandelle or a long spiral and take yourself on top of the enemy. In addition, if the gain on the climb is small and it forces you to continue the maneuver, then when you reach 5000 m you risk not having enough power from the engine. I remain of the idea that with the same pilot-skill, the Spit wins easy. Macchi could only run away when things go wrong.

 

The Macchi on CloD could be used as a FW, only it doesn't have the same armament. So it often takes multiple passes on the enemy to finish it off. Not to mention the ridiculous cadence of the Safat.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by 5th_Hellrider

[Buzzsaw]

About the Macchi C.202 turnrate:

 

It actually can turn with the Spitfire at higher speeds, and does very well in that environment... so if you have the jump and are following a Spitfire which is diving away, and turning to avoid, you can stay with it.

 

But when the speeds drop, then the Macchi starts to have problems... because of its high stall speed when compared to the Spitfires, and the nasty behaviour once the stall happens.

 

The Macchi had quite a good record in the Desert in the early part of 1942 mainly because it was up against the Tomahawks and the Kittyhawks... (Spits had not yet arrived) which do not have the speed or climb of the Spitfires.

 

So the Macchi could retain its height advantage and use vertical maneuvers even at low altitudes.  Once the Spits arrived, with their superior climb to the C.202's, then the Regia Aeronautica pilots had problems.

 

It is a testament to the stupidity and arrogance of the senior RAF commanders in Britain who refused to allow Spitfires to be sent to the Desert or Malta, (Leigh-Mallory and Portal) although there were lots of older Spit Squadrons in service up in Scotland or on the West Coast of Britain which never ever encountered German fighters, only bombers...  even one or two Squadrons of Spitfire I's or II's in the Desert would have made a big difference in 1941 and early '42.  As soon as the Spit V's arrived in the Desert in May of '42, the Bf-109F's, which had been almost invulnerable to that point, started taking losses, culminating in the August /September ravaging of JG27, and the death of multiple high scoring Aces, although Marseille was an accident.

[5th_Barone]

It needs to be taken in mind that the Regia Aeronautica was built more as a "show force" (good for airshows, parades and the famous crociere of the 30) than a real combat airforce.

This was due of the vision of the plane by the regime.

Saw more as a technical item and emblem of power than a combat weapon.

 

The basic evidence is the fact that above everything, pilots were trained in the aerobatics and formation flying rather than shooting and tactics (that was just a later and minimal part). Instrumental flight training was also minimal.

 

The technology and the development of real modern monoplane with inline engine was there (just think of the macchi partecipation of the Schneider cup).

But was considered something that could non be feasible into operation and just a "temporary trend"

The combat flight was still relegated to the ww1 early tactics and thinking (like Karaya said). An example is the fact that radio onboard the aircraft was almost none. Only few got it. The other ones had to relay on flight close together and use hand signs.

 

This must also be added to the very poor standardized industry and the lack of good quality materials.

 

The Italians also failed to acquire experience from the Spain war.

While both Germans and Soviets developed new tactics and decided to go on with the development of fast and power monoplanes. (The Soviets of course losing knowledge in the following years due to the generals and commanders purges).

 

Just think of the CR42. A biplane developed in almost the 1940.

Pure madness.

[Cybermat47]

53 minutes ago, Barone said:

The Italians also failed to acquire experience from the Spain war.

While both Germans and Soviets developed new tactics and decided to go on with the development of fast and power monoplanes. (The Soviets of course losing knowledge in the following years due to the generals and commanders purges).

 

Just think of the CR42. A biplane developed in almost the 1940.

Pure madness.

 

My understanding is that the RA did get experience from the SCW, but they focused on the wrong aspects.

 

The CR.32 apparently did well against the Republicans, helping the Nationalists gain air superiority. The RA saw that and, logically, concluded that making a more advanced version of the CR.32 was the way to go, and so they ended up entering WWII with large numbers of CR.42s, even using them in the Battle of Britain.

 

If the RA had paid attention to what other countries did in the SCW, however, they would have seen that the Bf 109 outclassed every fighter in the war, including the CR.32. But they didn't, resulting in the early-war RA only being a match for the RAF and other Commonwealth air forces in theatres like Africa and Greece, where they still used Gladiators and had the Hurricane Mk I as their most advanced fighter. And even then, there are stories of Hurricanes being able to completely ignore escorting G.50s while attacking bombers due to their significant advantage in speed.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Cybermat47

[Buzzsaw]

The other key factor affecting the development of competitive Italian fighters was the lack of a good inline engine... or a Radial type with a good power to weight ratio.

 

The Fiat A74 engine which equips both the CR.42 and the G.50 was really the only choice the Italians had which was light enough to fit in a fighter but which theoretically generated the amount of power to be reasonably competitive.

 

But it was behind the inline types, even on 87 octane fuel... the DB601A generated 1020 PS, the Merlin II/III generated 1030 SHP... compared to the 960 PS the A74 produced... plus the A74 being a radial meant the aircraft had a larger frontal area for the nose... which meant more drag than the narrower profile inline types.

 

When you then factor in the Allied advantage of higher octane fuel or the various advances which allowed the German engines to stay competitive... the A74 gets completely left behind in terms of power output... with the DB601N topping out at 1175 PS, and the Merlin XII at 1280 SHP.

 

This is why the Italians were so eager to license the DB601A engine for the Macchi C.202, Re.2001, etc.

 

But the Germans were stingy with their technology... the Italian manufacturers were given less than the most recent developments for engine types... so they only got a license for the DB601A/Aa... meanwhile the new German types were getting the DB601N and E types.  It wasn't till later in the war that the Germans realized their mistake and that they needed to get the maximum quality of aircraft out of Italian factories... so they allowed access to the DB605A to equip the Macchi C.205, Fiat G.55, etc.  But that was too late.

 

The Italians were also late to go to an enclosed cockpit... even on their first generation monoplanes like the G.50 or Macchi C.200... this resulted in significant disadvantages in drag coefficients... they decided to do this because again, the Italian doctrine was focused around close in dogfighting where the advantages open cockpits added in pilot vision were deemed more important than the disadvantages of added drag.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The enclosed cockpit was in G.50, but was removed by personnel due lack of visibility and poor quality of the plexiglass. Finns also removed the panels on the G.50's. 

 

In general the G.50 was considered stable and maneuverable having a sturdy airframe. Engine was troublesome, but most issues did get solved eventually. Finns achieved a K/D of over 40 to 1 in the Fiat. Only Brewster was in same league with 32:1.

 

 

[Pinguim]

Just found an easter egg. 

I was just flying over the tobruk map in my BR.20M, fooling around in the radioman position, when a (wine?) bottle appeared ??

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Mascalzone! Sei tu che hai rubato la mia bottiglia di vino! Ed è vuota! Avrei dovuto saperlo! Avrei dovuto sospettare di te!

 

?

[Pinguim]

The pleasure of bombing that last objective ☺️? (with some divebombing as well).

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Congrats Pinguim! Nice video.

Edited May 12, 2022 by LLv34_Flanker

[Pinguim]

Some highlights from my perspective in last weekend's event, Battle of Mechili.

 

 

[Pinguim]

This one is on last weekend's meetup at VCAF server, had a lot of fun flying with other 109s.

 

 

[Pinguim]

Made a short video showcasing the cool bombing dynamics available at the TWC server, and the navigation app by Veteran66 along Noofy's compass deviation table:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by LukeFF
swastikas

[Pinguim]

Is it just me or is the BR.20 very pretty?

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pinguim

[Pinguim]

Hot Convoy multiplayer event (July 15th)
Got some kills before losing the pilot. After that I basically got lost in the desert until I found the whole enemy team, which shot me down lol.

 

[Pinguim]

Don't let your guard down around a Beaufighter, it has quite a bite!

 

[II./JG27_Rich]

On 1/15/2022 at 5:47 PM, Pinguim said:

This time with the quad-cannon Hurricane. Not too fast, but great nose authority and small turn radius. Kudos to the Tomahawk pilot, brought them lower and managed to evade long enough to let me get a nice gun solution.

 

109s need some better external sound. Internal sound is great. Just like "Check Flight Gustav" disk that I have.

[Pinguim]

Even the 110 has its lucky days

 

[Pinguim]

Blenny time!

 

Edited February 23 by Pinguim

[Pinguim]

 

[Pinguim]

From the event last sunday