Bf-G14 or some FW (A5/A8) against new Mustang B ?

[CUJO_1970]

5 hours ago, ICDP said:

 

Can I ask what map, time and aircraft RPM, fuel mixture etc were used for your test.  The best speed I can get from a standard P51B is ~390mph in winter maps.  This is with auto lean, RPM 2600, radiators manual (tried various settings), boost enabled.  Only with 81" boost I can reach the speeds you claim you got for the standard P51B.

 

Rhineland Winter

 

P-51B with -7 engine (you don't even need to select 150 grade fuel)

 

Set at SL with auto level - water and oil set to manual - water to 37% - full power and hit boost key

 

All P-51B/D you can also use prop pitch exploit that has been in the sim for a long time and being abused by allied pilots...lower pitch to something like 76% while going full power/boost...

 

 

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Rhineland Winter

 

P-51B with -7 engine (you don't even need to select 150 grade fuel)

 

Set at SL with auto level - water and oil set to manual - water to 37% - full power and hit boost key

 

All P-51B/D you can also use prop pitch exploit that has been in the sim for a long time and being abused by allied pilots...lower pitch to something like 76% while going full power/boost...

 

 

lower rpm works also on 109s, and on allied airplanes i think it works only on 47, 51s spit 9 yaks, and on most only at low alts. And for yaks and 47s they show in manuals that they used that lower rpm for more speed, for engine thats in 51 and spit 9 i dont remenber any post showing in manuals that it worked better if using less rpm, like it can be done in game.

Edited January 1, 2022 by CountZero

[AndytotheD]

In the other P-51B/C thread it’s noted that the air speed displayed by the UI bar is uncorrected for temperature/density. If you were to take an E6B and do the correction manually, you’d get a much more reasonable TAS. I will test this for certain when I arrive home, however it seems reasonable. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Just ran tests on the B myself.  Mostly my results were similar to CUJO's.

 

-7 180oct. as near to the deck as I dared, auto level, manual rads, oil at 0% water at 37%, 2650rpm = 435mph IAS.

As a control, I did the same test on the summer version of the map, same settings, etc... = 401mph IAS.  Note that on the summer map the "engine overheat" warning was flashing in the techno chat.

 

I make no statement that these numbers are wrong or right, only that it's what I got in my testing.  As none of us have ever flown a real Mustang on the deck at full chat to the point of engine destruction, well, I see no point in doing anything but pointing out the numbers in the sim.

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by BlitzPig_EL

[AndytotheD]

What is the OAT on the winter maps?

[CountZero]

33 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Just ran tests on the B myself.  Mostly my results were similar to CUJO's.

 

-7 180oct. as near to the deck as I dared, auto level, manual rads, oil at 0% water at 37%, 2650rpm = 435mph IAS.

As a control, I did the same test on the summer version of the map, same settings, etc... = 401mph IAS.  Note that on the summer map the "engine overheat" warning was flashing in the techno chat.

 

I make no statement that these numbers are wrong or right, only that it's what I got in my testing.  As none of us have ever flown a real Mustang on the deck at full chat to the point of engine destruction, well, I see no point in doing anything but pointing out the numbers in the sim.

 

 

 

regardig the lowering rpm, i look at my MP and start to lower rpm , and when i see that my MP starts to drop by just lowering rpm then i know thats the best rpm for that alt as if i lose MP also it will slow me down. For example on winter map you can lower rpm more then on summer map for best speed.

19 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

What is the OAT on the winter maps?

dont remenber, but their in game spec test numbers for airplanes are true for autum kuban map, and using auto setings for rpms and radiators, so its normal on that map to get exact speeds as in tech info for airplanes. On other maps temp is differant so speeds are differant, and also if using manual settings for rads or rpms on some airplanes we can get higher speeds.

Edited January 1, 2022 by CountZero

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

48 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

What is the OAT on the winter maps?

-15ºC at sea level, 29.92 inHg in the quick mission builder maps.

[AndytotheD]

16 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

-15ºC at sea level, 29.92 inHg in the quick mission builder maps.

Thank you!

 

if you correct Blitz Pig’s maximum of 435 for temperature you get 412mph true which is still stupidly fast, the fastest they ever got a Mustang on the deck was 405 with modifications in a test performed in summer, but if you’re unrealistically abusing the engine by overboosting for a given RPM it’s really not beyond the realm of possibility

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

55 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

Thank you!

 

if you correct Blitz Pig’s maximum of 435 for temperature you get 412mph true which is still stupidly fast, the fastest they ever got a Mustang on the deck was 405 with modifications in a test performed in summer, but if you’re unrealistically abusing the engine by overboosting for a given RPM it’s really not beyond the realm of possibility

With the standard engine settings the top speed in ISA conditions is 395 mph, but yeah you can get higher speeds with auto lean mixture as Gavrik said in the update thread, gives more power at high engine settings, also closing the oil radiator and decreasing RPM combined makes it go 415 mph. 

With the reduced mixture and less RPM the engine could be in danger of detonation, this is something that should be modelled.

I also noticed the oil radiator in automatic mode opens too much as it's fully opened when oil temperature is only 60ºC.

[esk_pedja]

So after impressive P-51 engine performance comparison and analyses... can we get back to my "peasant" question:

 

If you have to takeoff during mid few months 1944 - against "default sim AI Mustang B" :

Which Luftwaffe fighter would have some/any chance as opposition at mid/low altitude ?

(summer map)

[ZachariasX]

29 minutes ago, esk_pedja said:

Which Luftwaffe fighter would have some/any chance as opposition at mid/low altitude ?

Boosted 109 or the 190A8 with C3 injection work well against that. Just don‘t put on unnecessary baggage. Go for one circle fights, something the AI cannot do that well.

Edited January 2, 2022 by ZachariasX

[Kurfurst]

3 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

So after impressive P-51 engine performance comparison and analyses... can we get back to my "peasant" question:

 

If you have to takeoff during mid few months 1944 - against "default sim AI Mustang B" :

Which Luftwaffe fighter would have some/any chance as opposition at mid/low altitude ?

(summer map)

 

UnleASh the Kraken.

 

 

Bf 109G-6/AS of III./ JG 3’s at Sours, near Chartres, mid-1944.

[ICDP]

3 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

So after impressive P-51 engine performance comparison and analyses... can we get back to my "peasant" question:

 

If you have to takeoff during mid few months 1944 - against "default sim AI Mustang B" :

Which Luftwaffe fighter would have some/any chance as opposition at mid/low altitude ?

(summer map)

 

Your question was answered correctly after a few posts

 

Since you don't have the G6 Late then go for the G14 or Fw190A8.  The lines between a late G6 and G14 are extremely blurred anyway.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

4 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

So after impressive P-51 engine performance comparison and analyses... can we get back to my "peasant" question:

 

If you have to takeoff during mid few months 1944 - against "default sim AI Mustang B" :

Which Luftwaffe fighter would have some/any chance as opposition at mid/low altitude ?

(summer map)

 If you are flying against AI, take the 190A8 or 109G14, you need an axis plane with boost. If you have Normandy then the FW190A6 with outer guns removed is a good air to air focke wulf as well

[esk_pedja]

15 minutes ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

 If you are flying against AI, take the 190A8 or 109G14, you need an axis plane with boost. If you have Normandy then the FW190A6 with outer guns removed is a good air to air focke wulf as well

I thought that "FW190A6 with outer guns removed" is basically A5 ?

[ICDP]

1 hour ago, esk_pedja said:

I thought that "FW190A6 with outer guns removed" is basically A5 ?

 

It is more about reducing the weight by around 150kg.  This helps improve climb and turn-rate.

[esk_pedja]

26 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

It is more about reducing the weight by around 150kg.  This helps improve climb and turn-rate.

I know that perfectly...

Just was curious if FW-A6 has any improvements in performance compared to A5 ?

[RyanR]

I did a bunch of 4v4 in the QMB.

 

The G-14 is definitely the way to go. The K-4 feels surprisingly sluggish and heavy by comparison, plus the ballistics of the 30mm means you've gotta pull that much more lead. The D-9 seems to do OK, but it's a fight. Haven't tried the 190A's.

 

A thing I've noticed (and have always loved) since the first IL2, is that air to air combat is very different in a "historical situation" than classic "dogfighting". In a dogfight it's about kills. In a historical type scenario, it's more about "diffusing the situation" by getting enemy planes out of the fight. There are different attributes of the aircraft at play.

 

-Ryan

 

 

[ICDP]

3 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

I know that perfectly...

Just was curious if FW-A6 has any improvements in performance compared to A5 ?

 

Better armament and weapon choices but not performance.

1 hour ago, RyanR said:

I did a bunch of 4v4 in the QMB.

 

The G-14 is definitely the way to go. The K-4 feels surprisingly sluggish and heavy by comparison, plus the ballistics of the 30mm means you've gotta pull that much more lead. The D-9 seems to do OK, but it's a fight. Haven't tried the 190A's.

 

A thing I've noticed (and have always loved) since the first IL2, is that air to air combat is very different in a "historical situation" than classic "dogfighting". In a dogfight it's about kills. In a historical type scenario, it's more about "diffusing the situation" by getting enemy planes out of the fight. There are different attributes of the aircraft at play.

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

That's why I tend to prefer single player because in most drop in/drop out style servers the focus in on getting the kill at all costs.

[RyanR]

57 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

That's why I tend to prefer single player because in most drop in/drop out style servers the focus in on getting the kill at all costs.

 

 

Same here. I got out of online 20 years ago.

 

-Ryan

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1 hour ago, ICDP said:

 

Better armament and weapon choices but not performance.

 

That's why I tend to prefer single player because in most drop in/drop out style servers the focus in on getting the kill at all costs.

Anecdotally, the A6 does feel lighter on the controls in game. She should also be ever so slightly faster with the inner gear doors. But agreed, otherwise, she has better guns. I am far more competitive online with the 6 than the 5. I use her even in late war DF engagements with success. On the other hand, I’d never take the A5 up over a D9 in late war. It’s a roll of the dice for me with the A6 vs D9.

[Horizon123]

After playing against the Mustang in a K-4 for a few rounds online, I found the K-4 to be decent, only if:

1.  You start with a significant speed advantage, more than 3-400kph above what the Mustang is pulling.  This means altitude

2.  You either make him bank, hard, in the pass - or - you nail him first pass

Either result, you're extending away, and climbing at around 350-400kph and not turning in for a follow up.  

As far as I've been able to track, the Mustang is similar to the Spits in approach:  At co-alt and speed, a 'fair' fight favors the allied craft for it's ability to accelerate, and hang in turns.  The best chance that an Axis aircraft has is to lopside the fight by surprising the opponent with a significant advantage, and even then, reversal is as easy as a minor yaw skew from the Allied craft, and pulling up to take a shot as the Axis craft goes for extension.  

Best hunting in pairs, and being patient.  The Axis fight-book is all about long waits and single passes.   Whatever craft is paired against an Allied counterpart will need to be more cautious, and have more fore-thought into their committal for engagement, as mistakes are not as easy to recover from, as in the Allied craft in a dogfight situation.   After reading post after post of "I can't find anything wrong with the new Mustang / Love it", that tells me the plane has very few weaknesses, and very few points where the pilot struggles on their control of the craft, in this model.   

 

A dream craft like that cannot be beaten by technical detail or stat ability.  Only by a pilot beating another pilot in a game of sky-chess, where the opponent doesn't know they're playing, and you're set up to win before you engage.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by ShipsBosun

[esk_pedja]

1 hour ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Anecdotally, the A6 does feel lighter on the controls in game. She should also be ever so slightly faster with the inner gear doors. But agreed, otherwise, she has better guns. I am far more competitive online with the 6 than the 5. I use her even in late war DF engagements with success. On the other hand, I’d never take the A5 up over a D9 in late war. It’s a roll of the dice for me with the A6 vs D9.

I am still waiting for my Steam A6 so - could you describe "better guns" ? Nose guns seems the same as A5, and if you remove "outer" wing canons for better turning and "center of gravity" it seems the same armament as A5 ?

Edited January 2, 2022 by esk_pedja

[ICDP]

You are correct that they have the same guns IF you remove the outer guns.  They are better when kept as they have same ballistics for all 4 cannons, rather than having 2x MGFF with worse ballistics.  So in essence it makes aiming easier and if you are planning to use hit and run then 4x MG121s will hit hard with even a brief shot on target.

Edited January 2, 2022 by ICDP

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

What ICDP said ^^
 

And I never remove the outer guns. She’s a boom and zoomer with a F ton of ammo. Don’t knife fight in her. Punch em in the mouth, re-perch, rinse and repeat.

[Denum]

9 hours ago, RyanR said:

The K-4 feels surprisingly sluggish and heavy by comparison

Yeah the K4 is a pig. 

 

If you fly it strictly and stay fast it's alright but with the Griffons and P51s skulking around it's main advantage isn't so huge anymore.

 

The G14 is really a better all rounder. As you can beat the energy out of them and close the kill.

 

Alternatively you can just keep your energy high and tire your opponent out. This only really works online but the spits and mustangs get greedy after a while and will try for a shot when they really shouldn't.

 

Just need to keep in mind, speed is the Mustangs game, the slower you get it, the easier it is to shoot down. 

 

 

7 hours ago, ICDP said:

That's why I tend to prefer single player because in most drop in/drop out style servers the focus in on getting the kill at all costs.

 

As far as online goes, I find alot, and I mean ALOT of people think they're much better then they really are. They get up against players that really know their BFM and get their noses bloodied and quit in a huff. 

 

There's definitely a few players abusing certain mechanics (luftwobblers being the most prevalent) but it's really not that. We have tons of fun running our sorties. 

 

On 1/1/2022 at 10:38 AM, CUJO_1970 said:

All P-51B/D you can also use prop pitch exploit that has been in the sim for a long time and being abused by allied pilots...lower pitch to something like 76% while going full power/boost...

Not really an exploit considering every aircraft is capable of it in game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Denum

[esk_pedja]

5 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

What ICDP said ^^
 

And I never remove the outer guns. She’s a boom and zoomer with a F ton of ammo. Don’t knife fight in her. Punch em in the mouth, re-perch, rinse and repeat.

If you have 4 heavy "outer" wing canons with only 2 light guns in nose (fuselage) it is disaster in terms of planes stability / center of gravity.

☹️

It should "have" dogfight behavior of Boing 747 (with empty baggage room)

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by esk_pedja

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

If you have 4 heavy "outer" wing canons with only 2 light guns in nose (fuselage) it is disaster in terms of planes stability / center of gravity.

☹️

It should "have" dogfight behavior of Boing 747 (with empty baggage room)

 

What?

[ICDP]

 

You can usually tell these types of players within a few seconds of the start of a dogfight.  The ones who dump all their energy to get a shot at all costs and who clearly don't know their fighters strengths and weaknesses... let alone the ones in their opponents plane.

 

As for not being an exploit, it isn't every plane that can do it and while reducing RPM can and did give a few KPH/MPH extra in real life, it is sometimes taken to extremes in BoX.  The problem is that not all planes get this boost, so it can't be an IAS to TAS thing.  So either the laws of thermodynamics apply or they don't?

[CountZero]

So did RAF Mustang IIIs only used 81" MP with squadrons in england defending ugenst v-1, or it was used when ever they had 150 fuel at bases no mather where located, like americans used 75" with 150.

[Bremspropeller]

Oooh, that's gonna be a 20-pager for sure ?

[Kurfurst]

33 minutes ago, CountZero said:

So did RAF Mustang IIIs only used 81" MP with squadrons in england defending ugenst v-1, or it was used when ever they had 150 fuel at bases no mather where located, like americans used 75" with 150.

 

[LukeFF]

Boosted P-51s were used solely from bases in England and no, the 81" mod wasn't used solely to chase V1s. 

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

the 81" mod wasn't used solely to chase V1s

 

 

V2s, too?

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[CUJO_1970]

22 hours ago, Denum said:

Not really an exploit considering every aircraft is capable of it in game.

 

No...we are specifically talking about going full boost and abusing the prop pitch, lowering it back and forth to get real speed gains...something the P-51 is particularly good at while fully boosted and full power/boost and then running the pitch fine? I can do 400 mph on the deck at 74" using this method on Kuban Autumn map. And i mean I can actually cruise on the deck at this speed.

 

Yaks can do this while _cruising_ to get more speed - just like they did in real life! Notice I did not say top speed...It's not an exploit.

 

The 109 does historically exactly in game what that POH and engine manual says it will do...also not an exploit. It will destroy the engine almost immediately if you try to increase boost pressure/engine RPM in an ahistorical manner...anyone can test this and see. 109 is not meant to run manual prop pitch at all and you get punished for trying to abuse it just like you should...again, not an exploit.

[ZachariasX]

8 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

V2s, too?

No, that's the ones with Flux capacitors installed. However they always got lost when they got faster than 88 mph. The good news is that they work with 80 octane fuel. The down side is that besides never returning, the requirement of a lightning strike made it a very unpopular ride though.

[esk_pedja]

After research, probes and lot of practice I concluded that A5 is my conclusion:

In QMB I mostly reach 2 kills, even 3... ( When practicing with "unlimited ammo" I reached 4 kills once...in single QMB )

As with any other fighter... it takes some practice before you get the feeling of your A5 when faced with numerically superior P-51B

?