190 D9 - Gyro

[Tipskin]

Hi guys,

 

I feel like there is something off with the aiming of the D9. Shots that would have been a hit always miss and a different lead is required in order to hit with this plane - as if the trajectory is slower or affected differently by the gravity. Is it a developer bug or my imagination?

 

Anyhow, I am trying to use the Gyro and figure it up.

If my convergence in the plane selection screen is 500m. Does it mean that the Gyro will not be effective for every other convergence?

For example:

spit is 11meter wingspan. I change the sight diameter to 11meter and then the distance dial for the spit wingspan to the diameter - Or again this is all irrelevant since the convergence of the plane has been set to 500m previously.\

 

Also, what good is it if it is lagging response to my stick moves and disappears from view?

Is it a developer bug or intentionally difficult borders with uselessness?

 

 

Thanks.

[BladeMeister]

I remember from the DCS D9 Forum threads that the actual pilots used a convergence of 600 meters. That is what I used and memorizing the size of the target in the aiming reticle circle helped me a lot when setting up deflection shots. Being at the right range when makings hits concentrates the rounds in a small area to do significant damage. Otherwise you are just spraying rounds all over the place as they are way before or way after convergence. Set up a friendly fighter or bomber in the QMB as your second flight and then practice firing at 600 m from their dead 6 with that convergence setting and see what happens. Practice, Practice, Practice!

 

S!Blade<><

[Eisenfaustus]

To use the gyro sight effectively you basically need one - better two - axis to spare. The distance is constantly corrected during fighting - after having chosen the correct wingspan for your opponent you now constantly adjust distance so that his wingspan fits exactly your pipper. If you than manage to hold him steady in the pipper for a whole second you will hit. But one second of steady aiming is quite a feat in a dogfight.  

[-250H-Ursus_]

Why are you using a convergence so insane?

 

The lower the convergence, easier to aim, more effective you are, this applies for gyro sight as well, since the prediction will not be for a plane a half o a km away from your position, no matter if is the German gyro or British Gyro, the lower the range you shot, easier for you keep the prediction on the target. 

You can notice that even without a gyro, by just aiming by yourself.

 

Try 230 mts or 200 you will notice a change or better, 180 mts.

Edited January 5, 2022 by -332FG-Ursus_

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

Why are you using a convergence so insane?

 

The lower the convergence, easier to aim, more effective you are, this applies for gyro sight as well, since the prediction will not be for a plane a half o a km away from your position, no matter if is the German gyro or British Gyro, the lower the range you shot, easier for you keep the prediction on the target. 

You can notice that even without a gyro, by just aiming by yourself.

 

Try 230 mts or 200 you will notice a change or better, 180 mts.

Correct for planes with wing armament - wrong for Planes with centreline armament. 
 

and the wingroot cannon of the 190 are basically centreline. 
 

in reality 190d guns were set up like this:

 

20mm: passing line of sight 600m, crossing each other at 300m. 

 

13mm: passing line of sight at 400m, never crossing. 

 

in game 400m convergence works very well for 190s and 109 without outer wing cannon or gunpods. 

[Art-J]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:10 AM, Tipskin said:

If my convergence in the plane selection screen is 500m. Does it mean that the Gyro will not be effective for every other convergence?

 

1) All gyro gunsights work on the same principle - they calculate and show point in space where the theoretical bullet fired from theoretical gun with muzzle located at the gunsight will fly through, at the distance you have dialed into the gunsight (the lead). It does that and only that. Nothing more, nothing less. So whenever you adjust the distance correctly (two numbers - wingspan and range to the target) - the gunsight will try to follow, calculate and show a new point accordingly. However...

 

On 12/31/2021 at 8:10 AM, Tipskin said:

For example:

spit is 11meter wingspan. I change the sight diameter to 11meter and then the distance dial for the spit wingspan to the diameter - Or again this is all irrelevant since the convergence of the plane has been set to 500m previously.\

 

2) ...gunsight does not and cannot "know" what convergence, or weapon installation in the aircraft is. It only calculates the theoretical lead (see: p.1). So yeah, even though it can calculate it for any distance, for the best effect it's still favourable to engage close to the convergence range. I suspect it's less of an issue in Dora with its guns being close together (although vertical convergence is still a thing). It's more of a problem in Allied airplanes with wing guns more spread apart.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 8:10 AM, Tipskin said:

Also, what good is it if it is lagging response to my stick moves and disappears from view?

Is it a developer bug or intentionally difficult borders with uselessness?

 

3) the further the target is, or the faster your and his turn rate are, the more lead is required, because the point through which bullets go lags behind your airplane axis more and more. So yes, in these scenarios target can disappear under the engine cover, but that's universal physics which applies to all aircraft - if you're taking so much lead that the theoretical point mentioned in p.1 disappears from your view than so be it - you would face exactly the same problem with standard gunsight as well. Solution - as suggested above, shoot at shorter distances, or at targets which are not turning very hard. Granted, all Fw-190s with their sights mounted quite low, are generally a bit less suited for deflection shooting than 109s, or most of other planes. 500 m setting makes things even harder.

 

Now, it is possible of course that the lead calculation of Dora's gyro sight in the simulator is done not quite right and should be tweaked. I don't fly the D-9 all that much so I admit don't have enough experience with it. Not to mention the fact that in real life gyro mechanism required a bit of time to calculate the lead properly and thus these gunsighs were most accurate only when used against targets turning at constant G for quite a few seconds. I don't know is this sim goes that deep in gunsights modelling. That being said, you have to keep all of the factors above in mind before investigating the issue further (if there actually is an issue here).

[LukeFF]

All you ever wanted to know about how the Gyro gunsights are modeled (and, since the time that was posted, further updates have been made):

 

 

[-250H-Ursus_]

13 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Correct for planes with wing armament - wrong for Planes with centreline armament. 
 

and the wingroot cannon of the 190 are basically centreline. 
 

in reality 190d guns were set up like this:

 

20mm: passing line of sight 600m, crossing each other at 300m. 

 

13mm: passing line of sight at 400m, never crossing. 

 

in game 400m convergence works very well for 190s and 109 without outer wing cannon or gunpods. 

Still the gyro will try to calculate the objective at 500. So having convergence, or the RANGE of the target at 500 in the gyro will lead to insane problems at the hour of calculation. If is not a big arget like a B-17 or a B-24

Besides convergence affects certenline armament. Vertical syncronization is involved with convergence in game as well.

Edited January 6, 2022 by -332FG-Ursus_

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

Still the gyro will try to calculate the objective at 500. So having convergence, or the RANGE of the target at 500 in the gyro will lead to insane problems at the hour of calculation. If is not a big arget like a B-17 or a B-24

Besides convergence affects certenline armament. Vertical syncronization is involved with convergence in game as well.

The Gyro will calculate the distance you dial in inflight - hence the axis needed to smoothly adjust distance during Combat all the time

 

And yes the passing point of the ballistic curve and the line of sight is affected by convergence setting. If set to 400m the Cannon shells of the FW 190 pass the the line of sight twice - at roughly 200m the first time and at roughly 400m the second time - giving you roughly 50-500m in which your cannon shells travel close enough to you line of sight to effectivly hit a fighter sized target.

[BladeMeister]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

All you ever wanted to know about how the Gyro gunsights are modeled (and, since the time that was posted, further updates have been made):

 

 

Thanks LukeFF. I made it through about half of this before I started scratching my head and wondering if even understood what I had just read. I think maybe this old saying applies for me in this situation. 'Sometimes Ignorance is sweet bliss!'

 

S!Blade<><

[-332FG-BlackCatActual-]

In the real Dora, twisting the throttle affected the range of the gunsight so you could make adjustments, literally on the fly. There was an additional ballistic calculator dial on the right hand panel of the pilot that the pilot needed to set for the altitude they were fighting. On DCS, it's 100 for 0 to 2k, and I forget the rest, but I've been using it and shooting at b17s from 800m to 1km and getting hits.

It's not as intricately modeled in IL-2, but it works similarly. Set your target's wingspan and adjust the reticle accordingly. It's harder to hit fighters farther out, but if you can sneak up behind them, you can get some good hits in from 400 to 500 meters.

Don't bother with the gyro unless shooting bombers or if you intend to get real close before firing your guns. Learning how it works in DCS has helped me in IL2.