p-51B/C

[Jaws2002]

30 minutes ago, dogefighter said:

Facts don't care about your opinion cujo

Cujo1970 has been helping fix planes, on both sides,  in Il-2 for over twenty years. Most people here know that and respect him for it.

 

No amount of silly memes will change that.

 

 

 

Maybe rolling all versions of P-51B in one plane is the issue. In the original Il-2, the boosted Mustang III was a stand alone plane and it could be used in missions as such. Now it's just an arming option of the P-51B and it can easily be used in, let's say 1943 mission, that isn't exactly historical.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Bremspropeller]

19 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

Cujo1970 has been helping fix planes, on both sides,  in Il-2 for over twenty years. Most people here know that and respect him for it.

 

No amount of silly memes will change that.

 

+1

[Gambit21]

22 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Turns out, a lot of pictures of pilots and their aircraft are just for posing and photo-ops...

 

Yep

 

22 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Were most photos just really posed,

 

Without a doubt. Often their not even in a flightsuit at all, yet supposedly “working”

 

22 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

or was the percentage of flown missions in g-suits really low?

 

No idea, but again very few photos were taken before/after actual ops.

Even photo’s like Preddy sitting in the cockpit holding up his fingers to tell his crewchief how many planes he just shot down were posed later.

 

There’s ‘action’ photos of pilots running to planes etc, and clearly they’re just standing there in a ‘run’ pose. ? 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Gambit21

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

Maybe rolling all versions of P-51B in one plane is the issue. In the original Il-2, the boosted Mustang III was a stand alone plane and it could be used in missions as such. Now it's just an arming option of the P-51B and it can easily be used in, let's say 1943 mission, that isn't exactly historical.

Scenario designers can restrict modifications unless something has changed that I'm not aware of.

[DBFlyguy]

28 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

 

 

No idea, but again very few photos were taken before/after actual ops.

Even photo’s like Preddy sitting in the cockpit holding up his fingers to tell his crewchief how many planes he just shot down were posed later.

 

There’s ‘action’ photos of pilots running to planes etc, and clearly there just standing there in a ‘run’ pose. ? 

 

Anything for the war effort, here's some BTS of a news piece during the invasion period with William B. King (5.5 kills) from the 354th FG, I really wonder how many takes they made this poor guy do ?

 

[Duggy]

Early G-suits -- LINK - http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?p=1&id=338#post-338

[Bert_Foster]

From Freeman's tome "The Mighty Eighth Manual" Pg 249

 

[Rjel]

47 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Yep

 

 

Without a doubt. Often their not even in a flighsuit at all, yet supposedly “working”

 

 

No idea, but again very few photos were taken before/after actual ops.

Even photo’s like Preddy sitting in the cockpit holding up his fingers to tell his crewchief how many planes he just shot down were posed later.

 

There’s ‘action’ photos of pilots running to planes etc, and clearly they’re just standing there in a ‘run’ pose. ? 

 

 

 

 

It took several tries to get this BoB pilot to pose stationary with both feet off the ground. Forever after he was known as "Floats".

 

[Gambit21]

Ha - I’m not talking about Brit photos. No idea there.

Awesome trick to master though!

[[DBS]TH0R]

21 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

This is discussed in Callum Douglas excellent new book The Secret Horsepower Race on p. 376 and 377 etc.  In short, the engine failed constantly, both on the bench (one within 90 seconds) but especially in the cold air over Europe, especially in winter, and for a large variety of reasons.

 

Finally: the only way to get the P-38/Allison system to work with 150 grade/high boost was to completely delete the whole intercooler system and replace with new system in P-38J (in addition to the other modifications already mentioned) and eventually the P-38 passed it's war emergency rating at 3000 rpm with 150 grade fuel.

 

But - the engines continued to fail. The whole engine and it's ancillary support systems were just not engineered for these high boost setting and by the time Allison could ever get things to work it was way too late.

 

So people keep asking for 150 grade fuel for P-38 but it is not a real option historically. Just be glad we have P-38 at all...and especially smile next time you fly it at high altitude on any winter map ?. What we should be asking for with P-38 instead of ones that weren't used is to asked for those that were used P-38F/G/H

 

As a follow up to this, on page 402 there is a chart listing all the 130 vs 150 grade fuel & engine boost differences (increase) for various Allied engines on January 1945.

 

Both Allison engines show no difference. The two engines which benefited the most were Merlin and Griffon.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by [DBS]TH0R

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

2 hours ago, Rjel said:

It took several tries to get this BoB pilot to pose stationary with both feet off the ground. Forever after he was known as "Floats".

 

 

After the war, however, he was repeatedly fined by the British Speedwalking Association for not maintaining contact with the ground leading up to the Olympic Trials.

 

*I have no idea if there is a British Speedwalking Association

[Rjel]

1 hour ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

After the war, however, he was repeatedly fined by the British Speedwalking Association for not maintaining contact with the ground leading up to the Olympic Trials.

 

*I have no idea if there is a British Speedwalking Association

If there isn't, there should be. I loved watching speedwalking. I've always wondered if that was the basis of the Monty Python skit Ministry of Silly Walks?

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, Rjel said:

I loved watching speedwalking. 

 

Well...horses for courses I guess.

[CUJO_1970]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:40 PM, Krupnski said:

 
Feel free to read this thread, there's plenty of evidence for it. The entire 8th AF, including the 479th FG more specifically started receiving shipments of 150 octane fuel to their airfield (Station 377 Wattisham) on June 10th, 1944. The main change required was some new spark plugs.?
 

 

 

 

Have you ever asked yourself why none of those documents contain any fighter group accounts or histories where pilots talk about their new 150 grade avgas in their P-38J pushing them to new boost powers to run down those Huns in the ETO and shoot them down - like they did with the P-51? Do you think perhaps those records were misplaced in a file cabinet somewhere, and then the pilots themselves decided they just wouldn't talk about it?

------------------------------

I've read the thread already, there is nothing new in it - including what you added. It is all the same mistakes, and wrong conclusions drawn from wrong documents for the last 15+ years.

 

Primarily these three mistakes are put forward:

 

1. Using stateside tests as proof of operational use in Europe of P-38J with 150 grade fuel.

2. Using clearance of Allison engine for 150 grade fuel as proof of operational use in Europe of P-38J with 150 grade fuel.

3. Using station shipments of 150 grade aviation fuel as proof of operational use in Europe of P-38J with 150 grade fuel.

 

Nobody denies those three things happened. However, none of those things demonstrate that Allison was ever able to get the P-38J operational with 150 grade avgas in the ETO before it was discontinued from the 8th AF. And Allison tried like hell.

So did all the mechanics working on the P-38 both stateside and in the ETO...but they never did.

 

Here's the gist of it, believe whatever you want: Allison farmed out for whatever reason too many of the ancillary/support engine systems instead of developing them in-house.

These systems were not built for the power Allison needed to develop and put in operation for the P-38. The P-38J was an attempt to get the P-38 fully operational and dependable for the 8th AF...it never happened, and it never happened in time for any 150 grade avgas to be put into operational use in the P-38J prior to it being removed from the 8th AF.

 

About the doc with higher output...Allison also ran the engine at 65" not on 150, but on 130...the engine failed after 45 minutes.

Max service rating used operationally on the P-38J was 1,600 hp/3,000rpm on 100/130 Avgas. - read about it in Vees For Victory.

 

"The main change required was some new spark plugs" ? Thanks for the laugh.

 

If you want to learn more, start with these books:

 

1. America's Hundred Thousand - Francis Dean

2. The Mighty Eighth + Mighty Eighth War Manual - Roger Freeman

3. The Secret Horsepower Race - Callum Douglas

4. Vees For Victory - Daniel Whitney

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[357th_KW]

Memo from the 8th Air Force Director of Technical Operations describing the 8th's experience with 150 octane fuel.

 

The critical quotes from that document with my own emphasis added:

 

"  b.   A decision was made in May 1944 to have all fighter units supplied with this fuel no later than 1 June. As of that date operations with this fuel continued until approximately 1 February 1945 when all fighter units switched to “Pep” (100/150 plus 1.5 T’s ethylene dibromide). As of 1 April 1945 all units switched back to 100/150 fuel containing 1.0 T ethylene dibromide.

            3.   At the time the 150 grade fuel was first used all three fighter types listed above were in operational use by this Air Force. Shortly after June 1 P-38 units were re-equipped with P-51 type aircraft so that experience with 150 grade fuel in P-38 aircraft is limited. Gradually, conversion of P-47 outfits to P-51’s took place during the Summer and Fall of 1944, and as of approximately 1 November only one P-47 group remained in this Air Force.

 

        4.   Maintenance difficulties can be summarized as follows:

                  a.   P-38 (V-1710 Engine).

                       Spark plug leading was increased. The extent of this leading was such that plug change was required after approximately 15 hours flying. This conditions was aggravated considerably by low cruising powers used to and from target areas, while trying to get the maximum range possible. It was found, however, that regular periods of high power running for a minute of two in most cases smoothed out any rough running engines unless the cause was other than leading."

 

It is crystal clear that the 8th used 150 octane fuel in their P-38s until they had converted them all to P-51s in the fall.  Note that the plug change requirement in hours was actually higher than that of the Merlin's which we know were used with 150 for the remainder of the war.

Edited January 6, 2022 by VBF-12_KW

[ciderworm]

11 hours ago, Rjel said:

It took several tries to get this BoB pilot to pose stationary with both feet off the ground. Forever after he was known as "Floats".

 

They all appear to be running to the same plane? 

[purK]

7 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

I've read the thread already, there is nothing new in it - including what you added. It is all the same mistakes, and wrong conclusions drawn from wrong documents for the last 15+ years.

 

About the doc with higher output...Allison also ran the engine at 65" not on 150, but on 130...the engine failed after 45 minutes.

Max service rating used operationally on the P-38J was 1,600 hp/3,000rpm on 100/130 Avgas. - read about it in Vees For Victory.

 

"The main change required was some new spark plugs" ? Thanks for the laugh.

 

So you're inferring these official documents are mistaken and have no merit, right.. Thanks for that laugh. It's a well known fact the entire 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel, and they did this in a relatively short time frame, shipments of the stuff went out immediately. Yet P38s were still being operated by the 8th AF in the UK as late as December '44. The evidence is right in front of you, but you're choosing to ignore it.

You also forgot to mention the higher output doc where the Allison successfully completed a 7-1/2 hour WEP test on 150 octane, with no engine modifications mentioned.

[Bremspropeller]

16 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

*I have no idea if there is a British Speedwalking Association

 

That one's just a myth.

The Ministry of Silly Walks is real, though.

8 hours ago, VBF-12_KW said:

It is crystal clear that the 8th used 150 octane fuel in their P-38s until they had converted them all to P-51s in the fall.  Note that the plug change requirement in hours was actually higher than that of the Merlin's which we know were used with 150 for the remainder of the war.

 

Warren Bodie mentions that there was a power increase in L models in late '44.

 

The Lockheed P-38 Lightning (pg.183)

"These Model 422-87-23* fighters had 3450 WEP horsepower on tap in an emergency. Top speed at normal rated power was 421mph, so they could attain around 440mph on WEP for about 5 minutes. [...] Deliveries began in October 1944."

 

___

*That's a P-38L-5-LO ("deliveries began in October '44") with V-1710F-30 engines

[Gambit21]

10 hours ago, ciderworm said:

They all appear to be running to the same plane? 

 

That’s how they decided who flew it.

[Guster]

11 hours ago, ciderworm said:

They all appear to be running to the same plane? 

 

Lazy mission designer only placed one waypoint.

[PatrickAWlson]

19 hours ago, Rjel said:

If there isn't, there should be. I loved watching speedwalking. I've always wondered if that was the basis of the Monty Python skit Ministry of Silly Walks?

 

I have often wondered if Monty Python skit Ministry of Silly Walks was the basis of speed walking

[Rjel]

9 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I have often wondered if Monty Python skit Ministry of Silly Walks was the basis of speed walking

I think it might be an either/or proposition.....

[CUJO_1970]

On 1/6/2022 at 2:19 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

Memo from the 8th Air Force Director of Technical Operations describing the 8th's experience with 150 octane fuel.

 

The critical quotes from that document with my own emphasis added:

 

"  b.   A decision was made in May 1944 to have all fighter units supplied with this fuel no later than 1 June. As of that date operations with this fuel continued until approximately 1 February 1945 when all fighter units switched to “Pep” (100/150 plus 1.5 T’s ethylene dibromide). As of 1 April 1945 all units switched back to 100/150 fuel containing 1.0 T ethylene dibromide.

            3.   At the time the 150 grade fuel was first used all three fighter types listed above were in operational use by this Air Force. Shortly after June 1 P-38 units were re-equipped with P-51 type aircraft so that experience with 150 grade fuel in P-38 aircraft is limited. Gradually, conversion of P-47 outfits to P-51’s took place during the Summer and Fall of 1944, and as of approximately 1 November only one P-47 group remained in this Air Force.

 

 

Yep, nothing new here.

 

It is not in dispute that the decision was made to supply 150 grade, or that all three fighter types were in operational use at this time.

 

Here's what is missing from this meme memo: experience with 150 grade fuel in P-38 aircraft

(It's the same reason there are no AAR or encounter reports from P-38 pilots referencing successful implementation of 150 avgas)

 

"Another approach was use of the new 150 octane grade fuel which was tested in two 55th group P-38Js during the same month in the hope of improving performance"

 

...But faced with continuing technical problems a decision was made to convert all P-38 groups to P-51s

 

-The Mighty Eighth War Manual - Roger Freeman p.185

 

Fortunately we do have plenty of info as why 150 grade was only tried in limited sense with the P-38, from 8th AF Historian Roger Freeman, P-38 pilots like Ed Giller - and we have more thorough and up to date information from Callum Douglas which gives us greater insight into the huge problems facing Allison with the P-38 at this time.

 

You really have to completely ignore them and their research to suggest that 150 grade aviation fuel is a legitimate, historical option for the P-38J.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 2:19 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

        4.   Maintenance difficulties can be summarized as follows:

                  a.   P-38 (V-1710 Engine).

                       Spark plug leading was increased. The extent of this leading was such that plug change was required after approximately 15 hours flying. This conditions was aggravated considerably by low cruising powers used to and from target areas, while trying to get the maximum range possible. It was found, however, that regular periods of high power running for a minute of two in most cases smoothed out any rough running engines unless the cause was other than leading."

 

This "spark plug leading" being the only issue is of course, nonsense. Read what actually happened please, because we have pretty much all of the details ?

Allison was having tremendous issues at this time with the P-38, even before trying to boost the engine higher. They included:

- pilots numb with cold, including frostbite

- overcooling leading to predetonation due to issues with new intercoolers in P-38J

- low oil temperatures leading to oil throwing cut engine life in half

- engines seizing

- engines throwing connecting rods

- turbine failure

-vapor lock in the fuel system - "...poor fuel metering at altitude, with incipient detonation providing the immediate cause of engine failure still persisted and was recognized as a basic deficiency plaguing the operation of Lightnings during previous months."

 

These were not isolated issues... "high number of abortives through mechanical failures on almost every mission"

"faced with continuing technical problems a decision was made to convert all P-38 groups to P-51s"

-The Mighty Eighth War Manual - Roger Freeman p.185 and p.186

 

So - we know that trying to throw 150 octane and higher boost on top of an already untenable situation only made problems worse.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 2:19 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

It is crystal clear that the 8th used 150 octane fuel in their P-38s until they had converted them all to P-51s in the fall.  Note that the plug change requirement in hours was actually higher than that of the Merlin's which we know were used with 150 for the remainder of the war.

 

It is crystal clear that 150 octane fuel was tried with the P-38J in an effort to get it reliable in the 8th AF.

 

It is also crystal clear that they were unable to do so before the P-38 was terminated as a fighter in the 8th AF.

 

 

On 1/6/2022 at 9:46 AM, Krupnski said:

So you're inferring these official documents are mistaken and have no merit, right.. Thanks for that laugh. It's a well known fact the entire 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel, and they did this in a relatively short time frame, shipments of the stuff went out immediately. Yet P38s were still being operated by the 8th AF in the UK as late as December '44. The evidence is right in front of you, but you're choosing to ignore it.

 

Nope. But I will confirm that you don't understand the documents, nor their place (or relevance) in this discussion.

 

You also don't seem to know when the P-38 was phased out as a fighter from the 8th AF:

"The 479th flew it's last P-38 mission on 27 September, terminating the Lightning's service as a fighter with the 8th Air Force"

Roger Freeman p.186

 

Even before this last mission, the 479th had mostly switched over to the P-51. Any small handful of P-38 left over in 8th AF after this date were loaded with cameras or used for radar experiments only. (this included a few P-38L, and these also had problems)

 

On 1/6/2022 at 9:46 AM, Krupnski said:

You also forgot to mention the higher output doc where the Allison successfully completed a 7-1/2 hour WEP test on 150 octane, with no engine modifications mentioned.

 

No, I didn't forget anything.

 

This snippet you shared is from a bench test in a lab at Freeman Field, not to operational use in the P-38J in the ETO. It bears no relevance to the matter at hand as the P-38 was never, at any time cleared operationally for this boost pressure at any point during it's service with the 8th AF. It's no more bearing than BMW successfully bench testing the 801 at 1.8ata or the Jumo 213 testing at 2.02ata - both of which happened as well.

 

This is the first thing that happened when they tried to really run 150 octane in the P-38 in the 8th AF:

 

 

That's a direct quote from Ed Giller, a P-38 pilot that was actually there. He put's these memos and snippets that keep getting bandied about as proof in their proper perspective.

 

As for the rest, see above reply posted earlier, invest in some actual books about the matter and try to get out of your feelings and actually learn something.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[CountZero]

We are getting ar-234b with normandy, its not model used, it dosent have base it was even used in recon type on map build few times it was used in normandy, and on top it will get gunpod modification that is used who knows when in combat... i do not belive any history facts are preventing us from having 150 modification option for P-38, its most likely they dont have time to add it and will probably add it at some point.

Edited January 7, 2022 by CountZero

[purK]

31 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

You also don't seem to know when the P-38 was phased out as a fighter from the 8th AF:

"The 479th flew it's last P-38 mission on 27 September, terminating the Lightning's service as a fighter with the 8th Air Force"

Roger Freeman p.186

 

If you dig deeper and do some more research, you can find a few accident or missing reports of P38s based in the UK beyond September, '44.

 

http://www.accident-report.com/Yearly/year.html

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/search?q=*:*&f.ancestorNaIds=305256&sort=naIdSort asc

But this is not the point, as they all ended service after 150 octane became available.

 

Quote

This snippet you shared is from a bench test in a lab at Freeman Field, not to operational use in the P-38J in the ETO. It bears no relevance to the matter at hand as the P-38 was never, at any time cleared operationally for this boost pressure at any point during it's service with the 8th AF.

You also quoted a bench test of the Allison failing after 45 minutes of 65 inches, then claim that it was never used beyond 60 inches operationally because of this. Yet there exist documents not only approving, but stating that P38s were already running at 65 inches manifold, and could soon be changed to 70 inches, which most likely would have only been possible with the use of 150 octane. There also exist documented deliveries, as well as listed monthly requirements in gallons of 150 octane needed for P51s, P47s, and P38s.

 

 

Again, all the evidence is right in front of you, yet for whatever reason you only wish to believe what you think you already know, and by your logic, these documents are fabricated with no merit.



 

[MeoW.Scharfi]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

We are getting ar-234b with normandy, its not model used, it dosent have base it was even used in recon type on map build few times it was used in normandy, and on top it will get gunpod modification that is used who knows when in combat... i do not belive any history facts are preventing us from having 150 modification option for P-38, its most likely they dont have time to add it and will probably add it at some point.

 

Don't forget Mc202 with gunpods which was used only like once on a single 202 before later on Mc205s and not even in russia iirc or 109K4 gunpods. Then this guy shows up and keeps discussing about P38 150 octane which is actually way better documented than certain other stuff.

 

So yes I think the P-38 should get 150 octane as option. ?

And there should be a mod for G-suits on all US american planes.

Edited January 7, 2022 by MeoW.Scharfi

[Alexmarine]

13 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Don't forget Mc202 with gunpods which was used only like once on a single 202 before later on Mc205s .

 

The fun thing is that the 205 didn't even needed the gondola installation as the wing were made to accommodate the guns directly inside them (same with the rest of the Series 5 fighters). But yeah, wouldn't be sad to see that particular mod removed from the game ...

[Bert_Foster]

On 1/5/2022 at 12:25 PM, AndytotheD said:

According to the same book the P-38J was cleared for 150 octane on May 6th 1944 (ref pg 377). According to a source on WWII Aircraft Performance every 8th Air Force fighter was apparently using 150 octane by D-Day and the P-38, while on its way to being phased out, was certain it still very much among this number. 

It does indeed say this on Pg 377 of The Secret Horsepower race .....  as a result of a War Emergency power test ... And as Cujo reports the other statements on Pg 376. An additional Table on Page 402 of the Secret Horsepower race though no Allison V1710 sub types fitted to the P38 are shown ... which is a little strange or means it wasn't cleared ? (F4R is P40 engine, F20R was fitted to the P40M/N and P51A)

 

 

So draw your own conclusions.

 

Rule of thumb:  Lbs Boost to In HG = (lbs Boost x 2)+30

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Bert_Foster

[ACG_Cass]

17 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

It is also crystal clear that they were unable to do so before the P-38 was terminated as a fighter in the 8th AF.

[CUJO_1970]

14 hours ago, Krupnski said:

 

If you dig deeper and do some more research, you can find a few accident or missing reports of P38s based in the UK beyond September, '44.

 

http://www.accident-report.com/Yearly/year.html

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/search?q=*:*&f.ancestorNaIds=305256&sort=naIdSort asc

 

 

 

I don't need to dig deeper, because I already know which P-38 were left in the 8th AF after September 1944 for years now - which is exactly why I wrote:

small handful of P-38 left over in 8th AF after this date were loaded with cameras or used for radar experiments only.
 

Here's the 8th AF history of the P-38 in it's entirety after the 479th flew it's last mission in September:

-2 left over for training and made into 2-seaters,

-2 sent to Operational Engineering for Aphrodite and Dilly experiment.

-a small number of P-38J/L converted to F-5 carrying cameras only; flying with 7th Photo Recon Group

-4 had radars put in them and operated with RAF 100 Group.

-12 converted to 2-seater with H2X trials; discontinued Feb 1945.

 

That's it. That's the list^^

(Do you suppose those two-seat trainers were flying balls to the wall 150 octane?)

And yes, some of them didn't make it back.

You can read all about them on P. 186-188 of Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual. Alternatively you can continue to ignore the truth. Up to you.

 

14 hours ago, Krupnski said:

You also quoted a bench test of the Allison failing after 45 minutes of 65 inches, then claim that it was never used beyond 60 inches operationally because of this. Yet there exist documents not only approving, but stating that P38s were already running at 65 inches manifold, and could soon be changed to 70 inches, which most likely would have only been possible with the use of 150 octane. There also exist documented deliveries, as well as listed monthly requirements in gallons of 150 octane needed for P51s, P47s, and P38s.

 

 

 

Had you posted the document in entirety, you will also read:

the increase in the rate of climb is approximately 800 ft. per minute. In addition, manifold pressures can be used at the higher ratings without danger of incipient detonation; this gives a greater factor of safety.

 

Unfortunately, incipient detonation and sometimes deadly engine failures were exactly what happened (maybe they didn't get the memo?)

 

What really happened in the real, actual world:

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

7 minutes ago, ACG_Cass said:

 

Yep, shortly after this memo was typed up the P-38 was scheduled to be removed from the 8th AF for high number of abortives and numerous technical issues.

 

And I mean within weeks. Allison was never at any time able to get the P-38J running acceptably on 150 octane prior to it being terminated as a fighter from the 8th AF.

 

Nobody doubts an operational squadron tested 150 grade fuel - we've been discussing it's use with the 479th - otherwise how else would they find out and confirm all the problems that are documented and being discussed (and ignored, mostly ignored) in this thread?

 

150 octane tested.

 

It was a failure.

 

P-38 service terminated.

 

The end.

 

[ACG_Cass]

56 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Yep, shortly after this memo was typed up the P-38 was scheduled to be removed from the 8th AF for high number of abortives and numerous technical issues.

 

And I mean within weeks. Allison was never at any time able to get the P-38J running acceptably on 150 octane prior to it being terminated as a fighter from the 8th AF

I can't see a date so would be good to understand when this memo was written. Odd that it would be that late on based on the comments on the P-47 and P-51.

 

We're discussing whether the P-38 was used operationally with 150 Octane fuel. It clearly was even in limited capacity. We have the DC engine K4, Gunpods, Bombs on the Tempest, Rockets on the Mk IX - all were used in very limited capacity but were used operationally.

 

I don't think engine issues using the fuel completely disqualifies it from being included for the P-38.

[Bremspropeller]

I haven't been able to identify any P-38 outfit flying g-suits so far.

There's two pictures in the 82nd FG book (MTO) that may or may not be g-suits (grainy pictures), but they're most probably just A-10 pants.

Looks like freezing stiff at altitude was a greater concern in P-38s.

 

The only picture of a P-38 pilot in speed-pants that I could find up o now was Tony LeVier in '46.

 

 

Haven't been searching for 150octane fuel yet.

I hate that I can't just ctrl+F books...

 

 

Regarding P-38s in Europe after the 479th converted to Mustangs:

P-38s were in short supply and they most probably just went over to the 9th AF or to the Med to the 15th AF.

"MTO" is a relative term here. The 82nd apparently flew missions to Berlin.

 

9th outfits flying P-38s at this time were

- 367th FG (converted to P-47s in early '45)

- 370th FG (converted to P-51s in late FEB '45)*

- 474th FG => the only unit in the ETO to fly Lightnings through to VE-Day

 

15th outfits flying P-38s at this time were - all of them flew P-38s through to VE day.

- 1st FG

- 14th FG

- 82nd FG

 

___

*Fun Fact: The 370th trained on P-47s in the States, operationally debuted in P-38s and then would convert to P-51s in February '45, flying all of the three major US fighters.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[DBFlyguy]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

*Fun Fact: The 370th trained on P-47s in the States, operationally debuted in P-38s and then would convert to P-51s in February '45, flying all of the three major US fighters.

 

Very similar to the 78th FG of the 8th AF.  But they actually deployed to the UK in P-38s, converted to P-47s within a month then finished the war in P-51s.  One of the squadrons (83rd FS) actually flew one operational mission to France on Spit IX's after a miscommunication between the 78th FG commander and the wing commander at Hornchurch ?

 

 

Concerning g-suit use among the P-38 and P-47 in the ETO, I found these:

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by DBFlyguy

[purK]

8 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Had you posted the document in entirety, you will also read:

the increase in the rate of climb is approximately 800 ft. per minute. In addition, manifold pressures can be used at the higher ratings without danger of incipient detonation; this gives a greater factor of safety.

 

Unfortunately, incipient detonation and sometimes deadly engine failures were exactly what happened (maybe they didn't get the memo?)

 

Clearly they found enough reasoning to increase their WEP rating to 65 inches, and potentially 70-75, despite all these "incipient failures". Not every mission was flown at 25K or above. The P38 began flying low level strafing/bombing runs, while searching for any fighters to harass in the air or on the ground. This would have allowed them to take full advantage of that extra power with a much lesser risk of problems. But of course, when things are going right and nobody is complaining, there's no quotes to take from. Unfortunately by some logic here, those official documents are unbelievable. ?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Krupnski

[CUJO_1970]

8 hours ago, ACG_Cass said:

I can't see a date so would be good to understand when this memo was written. Odd that it would be that late on based on the comments on the P-47 and P-51.

 

AIR 51/373, It's from 28 March 1944 most likely.

 

8 hours ago, ACG_Cass said:

We're discussing whether the P-38 was used operationally with 150 Octane fuel. It clearly was even in limited capacity. We have the DC engine K4, Gunpods, Bombs on the Tempest, Rockets on the Mk IX - all were used in very limited capacity but were used operationally.

 

I don't think engine issues using the fuel completely disqualifies it from being included for the P-38.

 

It's a slippery slope. The P-38J-25 that we have in the sim can't at any time be used historically with 150 octane fuel -  unlike the K4/DC - which can be used in 1945.

 

Why? - Even if we ignore the technical issues The 479th only ever operated P-38J-10 and P-38J-15 series at this time where 150 grade was being tested.

 

So yes - when we ask for P-38J-25 that we have in the sim to have 150 octane fuel, we are asking for something that never happened. This is likely why the developers never included it in the first place. It's like asking to add 1.98 ata on G-14 which never got that rating either.

[CUJO_1970]

6 hours ago, Krupnski said:

Clearly they found enough reasoning to increase their WEP rating to 65 inches, and potentially 70-75, despite all these "incipient failures". Not every mission was flown at 25K or above. The P38 began flying low level strafing/bombing runs, while searching for any fighters to harass in the air or on the ground. This would have allowed them to take full advantage of that extra power with a much lesser risk of problems. But of course, when things are going right and nobody is complaining, there's no quotes to take from. Unfortunately by some logic here, those official documents are unbelievable. ?

 

We know what the missions mostly were - they were bomber escort missions as it is shown in USAAF Historical Digest, among others. You just have to dig.

 

Yet another issue curtailing testing at this time: 150 grade was not allowed to be used in Overlord Area due to serious technical concerns connected again to sparking plug maintenance:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/welsh-bradley.jpg

 

(Speaking of unbelievable official documents)

 

Also at this time P-38J fighter numbers in the 8th AF were dwindling rapidly - already by August 22 there were 74 and then by 19 September there were only 50. Also: none of these (zero) were P-38J-25, they were J-5/10/15 only. Our P-38J-25 was never flown by 479th, or in 8th AF at all, never tested with 150 octane fuel.

 

Actually, it's not really true to say the 479th never flew the P-38J-25. They flew two of them but the dive flaps kept malfunctioning (one needed repair 9 times). So they got rid of them, probably sent to 9th or 15th AF.

 

So this asking for 150 octane for the P-38J-25 is simply not something that happened in real life.

 

 

On 1/7/2022 at 2:44 PM, MeoW.Scharfi said:

Then this guy shows up and keeps discussing about P38 150 octane which is actually way better documented than certain other stuff.

So yes I think the P-38 should get 150 octane as option. ?

 

 

 

Well "this guy" has put in the time researching since long ago - I'm sorry the truth makes you unhappy...but it is the truth. If you want 150 octane for the P-38 that's fine...but don't assign bad motives to someone who tells the truth about it. Nobody is trying to deprive you of anything.

 

Hopefully you will somehow be able to find joy in only having every single late war high boost Allied fighter that ever flew right at your fingertips.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

25 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Well "this guy" has put in the time researching since long ago - I'm sorry the truth makes you unhappy...but it is the truth. If you want 150 octane for the P-38 that's fine...but don't assign bad motives to someone who tells the truth about it. Nobody is trying to deprive you of anything.

 

There are like 5 ppl telling you the truth about using sources and you quote 1 book phrase which no one read, ok!

 

That's selective realism to me becasue as you said

 

"Hopefully you will somehow be able to find joy in only having every single late war high boost Allied fighter that ever flew right at your fingertips."

 

so you try everything to avoid exactly that.

Edited January 8, 2022 by MeoW.Scharfi

[AndytotheD]

Does Douglas actually definitively say the P-38 didn’t use 150 octane gas? I left my copy at home, but as I recall he only says they never definitively worked out the problems. 

[CUJO_1970]

14 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

There are like 5 ppl telling you the truth about using sources and you quote 1 book phrase which no one read, ok!

 

Cool, ignore what you don't want to hear, don't read and remain uninformed.

 

Nobody can force you to learn, lol.

1 minute ago, AndytotheD said:

Does Douglas actually definitively say the P-38 didn’t use 150 octane gas? I left my copy at home, but as I recall he only says they never definitively worked out the problems. 

 

No, nobody says that.

 

They worked hard to get it done with both 150 grade and the P-38. Allison built a strong engine, but the P-38 is an entire system - you have to look at the whole system, engine/intercoolers/turbos etc...what Callum Douglas book does is help you to understand how Allison was somewhat handicapped by bureaucracy and having to use other manufacturers system like the intercoolers and the GE turbos etc. instead of those thing being developed in-house.