p-51B/C

[ColdArcher]

In my humble opinion this aircraft is an absolute joy to fly!! You guys nailed this one!

[BlitzPig_EL]

Indeed sir.   It's certainly a smooth, fast, and capable aircraft.  It does so many things well, that it's few down sides (climb rate, weapons power, lack of G-suit) are more than made up for.

[ColdArcher]

10 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Indeed sir.   It's certainly a smooth, fast, and capable aircraft.  It does so many things well, that it's few down sides (climb rate, weapons power, lack of G-suit) are more than made up for.

The only thing I can see is the roll rate, and I’m sure that’s accurate 

[Rjel]

When Chuck Yeager was asked what was so special about the P-51 he said (paraphrasing from memory) "The P-51 could do for eight hours what the Spitfire could do for 30 minutes." Then he added with that sly grin he had,  "Does that answer your question?" 

 

I figure if anyone should know, it was him.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Rjel
Forgot to add who I was quoting. Chuck Yeager it was.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 minutes ago, ColdArcher said:

The only thing I can see is the roll rate, and I’m sure that’s accurate 

And a rather sudden spin. Again historical, AFAIK. And sure not enough of a downside to make me change my opinion about the P-51B. In fact, I think she may become one of my favourite aircraft

[=_=HeavenAndClouds]

It's not a bad plane... it's alright 

[Bert_Foster]

Love the new P51B but some things would make it even better imo.

MALCOM HOOD

You went to all the effort to model the Malcom Hood but we are trapped with head design restrictions that restrict pilot head movement to the box as determined by the bird cage design. Perhaps a clone Aircraft for the Malcom Hood with realistic head movement restrictions.

DETROLA

This piece of equipment seems to be tied to the Bird cage canopy in the P51B. Its not relevant imo to IL2 Great battles. The Detrola was a Continental US specific comms unit. I don't think it it was ever fitted to aircraft overseas. So imo should be removed from ALL IL2 GB aeroplanes. Its not functional either.

 

 

GUNSIGHTS

The US N3 gunsight and its back up sight are an eyesore imo. The Ring for the Ring and bead sight was removable and stowed under the right windscreen coaming. It was only used if the reflector was not used or failed. So 99% of the time it would be stowed and not visible. The P51B cockpit would be a lot nicer if the Bead could simply be removed. Another option would be to have a key binding to have it made visible simulating the pilot removing it from stowage and putting it into position. Perhaps the "Gunsight mode LALT+M" might be a suitable command ?

 

 

The Variable depression Knob and system. Though it was fitted to some N3 sights it was certainly not in the majority of cases. Again if this was optional (Mod option ?) it would be nice to give the end user the option to remove it.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Bert_Foster

[sevenless]

Yep. This plane is tons of fun.

[Avimimus]

Yeah - it'd be nice to have the back-up sights be able to be flipped up (and someday have the back-up sight on the I-16 working).

 

However, the ring and bead sight is my favourite option - and it'd be a shame to flip it up and out of the way... so I'd always leave it down anyway!!

[Charlo-VR]

4 hours ago, Bert_Foster said:

Love the new P51B but some things would make it even better imo.

MALCOM HOOD

You went to all the effort to model the Malcom Hood but we are trapped with head design restrictions that restrict pilot head movement to the box as determined by the bird cage design. Perhaps a clone Aircraft for the Malcom Hood with realistic head movement restrictions.

Here’s a recent post from one of the devs about this particular issue:

 

1. Unfortunately, we can't have two sets of head movement restrictions for the same plane, so Malcolm Hood shares it's restrictions with the standart cockpit, thus, no leaning right

[357th_Esco]

6 hours ago, Bert_Foster said:

Love the new P51B but some things would make it even better imo.

MALCOM HOOD

You went to all the effort to model the Malcom Hood but we are trapped with head design restrictions that restrict pilot head movement to the box as determined by the bird cage design. Perhaps a clone Aircraft for the Malcom Hood with realistic head movement restrictions.

DETROLA

This piece of equipment seems to be tied to the Bird cage canopy in the P51B. Its not relevant imo to IL2 Great battles. The Detrola was a Continental US specific comms unit. I don't think it it was ever fitted to aircraft overseas. So imo should be removed from ALL IL2 GB aeroplanes. Its not functional either.

 

 

GUNSIGHTS

The US N3 gunsight and its back up sight are an eyesore imo. The Ring for the Ring and bead sight was removable and stowed under the right windscreen coaming. It was only used if the reflector was not used or failed. So 99% of the time it would be stowed and not visible. The P51B cockpit would be a lot nicer if the Bead could simply be removed. Another option would be to have a key binding to have it made visible simulating the pilot removing it from stowage and putting it into position. Perhaps the "Gunsight mode LALT+M" might be a suitable command ?

 

 

The Variable depression Knob and system. Though it was fitted to some N3 sights it was certainly not in the majority of cases. Again if this was optional (Mod option ?) it would be nice to give the end user the option to remove it.

I remember in IL2 1942 the B model was the cage, and the C was the hood. Hopefully someday they will figure something out. If they can change bombs under the wings by skin I assume they can somehow change head movement by mod.(like the g-suit)?

 

I wonder how many different aircraft IL2 GB actually has if you were to break them up individually by modifications? Did both US and Britain use the -7 engine and the 81 manifold pressure? I wonder if the 81 manifold pressure will make its way into the D at some point.

Edited December 30, 2021 by VBF-12_Esco

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, VBF-12_Esco said:

I wonder how many different aircraft IL2 GB actually has if you were to break them up individually by modifications? Did both US and Britain use the -7 engine and the 81 manifold pressure? I wonder if the 81 manifold pressure will make its way into the D at some point.

 

Yes, both used the -7 engine. The RAF used the 81-inch mod, while it was the USAAF that used the 75-inch mod. 

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, Bert_Foster said:

DETROLA

This piece of equipment seems to be tied to the Bird cage canopy in the P51B. Its not relevant imo to IL2 Great battles. The Detrola was a Continental US specific comms unit. I don't think it it was ever fitted to aircraft overseas. So imo should be removed from ALL IL2 GB aeroplanes. Its not functional either.

 

Are we sure it was never used overseas? I saw this post while looking up information on the Detrola radio:

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p51-d-antenna-wire.18345/

 

Quote

In Europe, while US fighters did not use the LF band for communication but we do know they used radio beacons associated with their home fields for navigation. So at least some of the P-51’s and P-47’s appear to have been equipped with the Detrola/BC-1206 for that purpose, along with a long wire antenna.

 

[Retnek]

17 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Are we sure it (Detrola) was never used overseas?

 

Lot's of sources point on removing the Detrola-set before the planes went to the ETO because there were no A/N-radio-ranges available. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_radio_range) For the PTO maybe some A/N-radio-installations were extended (just for the supply-lines?) into the Pacific late in war, found no distinct sources on that.

For the ETO that set generally was removed - I think it's safe to state it has been the standard.

But it was a light-weight-system suitable for small fighter aircraft. For the fighters the variety of radio-systems was somewhat limited so those systems occasionally were modified or combined with other equipment. There's some chance to find pictures from ETO with a Detrola-set build-in especially late in war.

(see https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/275534-p-47-navigation-homing-radio-bc-1206-detrola-works-like-the-bf-109-without-the-needles-or-the-lamp/?do=findComment&comment=4708148 , too)

[Props]

10 hours ago, VBF-12_Esco said:

I remember in IL2 1942 the B model was the cage, and the C was the hood. Hopefully someday they will figure something out. If they can change bombs under the wings by skin I assume they can somehow change head movement by mod.(like the g-suit)?

 

I used to think this was the case, but after reading Escort to Berlin again recently (an awesome day to day mission log of the 4TH FG by the way), it is evident that the Malcolm hood was highly prized by everyone and was fitted to many B models as well. Just noting. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

18 minutes ago, Props said:

I used to think this was the case, but after reading Escort to Berlin again recently (an awesome day to day mission log of the 4TH FG by the way), it is evident that the Malcolm hood was highly prized by everyone and was fitted to many B models as well. Just noting. 

Esco is just pointing out that in the original IL-2 they gave us a P-51B and a P-51C with the only difference being the canopy. The way they solved that particular issue in the old sim. With Great Battles its a modification rather than a whole different airplane.

[Motherbrain]

20 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Esco is just pointing out that in the original IL-2 they gave us a P-51B and a P-51C with the only difference being the canopy.

 

I like this solution the best. I'd rather not have a "P51B/C Birdcage" and "P51B/C Malcolm" cluttering up the menu with the same skins and modifications.

 

It would be a good excuse to have more default skin options too. And we could potentially save one Mustang for another expansion. Just give us the "C" Malcolm hood version for Normandy.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Motherbrain

[BBAS_Tiki_Joe]

I'm loving the P-51B!, Couple of questions though, is there no bomb selector mode in the P51B? Can I not select to just drop 1 x 500lber at a time? The second, is the Merlin engine Mod worth ever using, any Idea on the performance low level vs. the one it comes with?

[DBFlyguy]

2 hours ago, Motherbrain said:

 

 Just give us the "C" Malcolm hood version for Normandy.

 

The Birdcage was much more common than the Malcolm hood during the Normandy time frame, it'd make more sense to just include the birdcage version if they "had" to give either/or. I'd honestly just have them leave it as is with both included than deal with the hassle at this point....

Edited December 30, 2021 by DBFlyguy

[ShamrockOneFive]

56 minutes ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

I'm loving the P-51B!, Couple of questions though, is there no bomb selector mode in the P51B? Can I not select to just drop 1 x 500lber at a time? The second, is the Merlin engine Mod worth ever using, any Idea on the performance low level vs. the one it comes with?

 

The P-51B in earlier versions was tuned for slightly higher speed at slightly higher altitudes while the -7 engine is what became standard for the P-51D. A couple of MPH off the top speed but better overall speed at most altitudes. I'd say yes whenever it's available you should choose it.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think I need to do some more testing with the dash 7.  To me it seems more lethargic than the standard engine, even with the 81 inches of manifold option.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Esco is just pointing out that in the original IL-2 they gave us a P-51B and a P-51C with the only difference being the canopy. The way they solved that particular issue in the old sim. With Great Battles its a modification rather than a whole different airplane.

 

Which was still a clumsy way to handle it at the time, since the only difference between a B and a C is where it was built. 

1 hour ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

I'm loving the P-51B!, Couple of questions though, is there no bomb selector mode in the P51B? Can I not select to just drop 1 x 500lber at a time? The second, is the Merlin engine Mod worth ever using, any Idea on the performance low level vs. the one it comes with?

 

No bomb selector, and yes, the -7 is the more advanced engine. 

48 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

The Birdcage was much more common than the Malcolm hood during the Normandy time frame, it'd make more sense to just include the birdcage version if they "had" to give either/or. I'd honestly just have them leave it as is with both included than deal with the hassle at this point....

 

On USAAF planes but not so with the RAF - they modified all their Mustang IIIs to carry the Malcolm Hood. 

[CountZero]

48 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

The P-51B in earlier versions was tuned for slightly higher speed at slightly higher altitudes while the -7 engine is what became standard for the P-51D. A couple of MPH off the top speed but better overall speed at most altitudes. I'd say yes whenever it's available you should choose it.

in game -3 is slower at low alts and mutch mutch slower at mid and high alts, and -7 is exactly same spped as -7 on D. -3 looks broken in game if you check speeds compared to -7 on same settings.

 

And all this buzz about malcolm hood and then you dont get any benefit of it in game, whats the point of it even being modeled then.

Edited December 30, 2021 by CountZero

[CUJO_1970]

24 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I think I need to do some more testing with the dash 7.  To me it seems more lethargic than the standard engine, even with the 81 inches of manifold option.

Maybe they made it more realistic after the patch, but I got the -7 up to 417 mph at 81” on the deck on Kuban Autumn…haven’t checked it again.

 

CountZero said he got 434 mph on the deck on winter map ?? but I haven’t checked. That would be 59 mph faster than the D-9 can do, lol.

 

But maybe it was fixed.

 

[DBFlyguy]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

 

 

On USAAF planes but not so with the RAF - they modified all their Mustang IIIs to carry the Malcolm Hood. 

True, but I believe there were a lot more USAAF P-51Bs (those primarily used the birdcage) than there were RAF P-51Bs at this period?  probably should've clarified more though

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, DBFlyguy said:

True, but I believe there were a lot more USAAF P-51Bs (those primarily used the birdcage) than there were RAF P-51Bs at this period?  probably should've clarified more though

 

Probably, but all told the RAF received about 800 Mustang IIIs, so it's not an insignificant number. 

[Vishnu]

5 hours ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

I'm loving the P-51B!, Couple of questions though, is there no bomb selector mode in the P51B? Can I not select to just drop 1 x 500lber at a time? The second, is the Merlin engine Mod worth ever using, any Idea on the performance low level vs. the one it comes with?

Ya...no selector  to drop one bomb at a time?

Edited December 30, 2021 by Vishnu

[BBAS_Tiki_Joe]

4 minutes ago, Vishnu said:

Ya...no selector  to drop one bomb at a time?

I thought that to be weird, seems like there are a 100 reasons why you would need to be able to drop one at a time. Maybe it was a weight thing, like if one dropped it would unbalance the plane or something and send it into a spin? Just interesting, doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to make one at a time possible.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Vishnu said:

Ya...no selector  to drop one bomb at a time?

 

1 hour ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

I thought that to be weird, seems like there are a 100 reasons why you would need to be able to drop one at a time. Maybe it was a weight thing, like if one dropped it would unbalance the plane or something and send it into a spin? Just interesting, doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to make one at a time possible.

 

It's correct as modeled. Plus, all the manuals say to never drop one 1000-pound bomb at a time, because it would seriously unbalance the plane. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

 

It's correct as modeled. Plus, all the manuals say to never drop one 1000-pound bomb at a time, because it would seriously unbalance the plane. 

 

Does the P-51D have the same restriction? Because I've done that.... and I don't recommend it

20 hours ago, CountZero said:

in game -3 is slower at low alts and mutch mutch slower at mid and high alts, and -7 is exactly same spped as -7 on D. -3 looks broken in game if you check speeds compared to -7 on same settings.

 

And all this buzz about malcolm hood and then you dont get any benefit of it in game, whats the point of it even being modeled then.

 

Odd. Has anyone posted speed chart comparisons?

 

And I'm not sure what you're saying about the Malcolm hood. Visibility is much better with it.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Does the P-51D have the same restriction? Because I've done that.... and I don't recommend it

 

I don't recall seeing it anywhere in manuals, but the same restriction was probably in place - especially since the D had option of selecting one or two bombs.

[Rjel]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:46 AM, ShamrockOneFive said:

Esco is just pointing out that in the original IL-2 they gave us a P-51B and a P-51C with the only difference being the canopy. The way they solved that particular issue in the old sim. With Great Battles its a modification rather than a whole different airplane.

Not that I’m into MP but I would think that if the Malcolm were restricted to the British MkIII version as a separate A/C it would be a dead giveaway to an opponent what he was facing. 
 

I haven’t really flown that engined version much yet as I find the standard B awfully good. I’m somewhat surprised by the birdcage canopy too. While the view over the shoulder isn’t good obviously, the rest I think is very good. I love the reflections in it. Even on medium settings I get a very good sense of there being plexiglass over me. The internal mirror on the B/C also gives a much better view to the rear than the external one used on the D. I’m surprised it was done away with in the later model. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Rjel
Spelling

[ShamrockOneFive]

44 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Not that I’m into MP but I would think that if the Malcolm were restricted to the British MkIII version as a separate A/C it would be a dead giveaway to an opponent what he was facing. 

I'm not sure what you mean. Both American and British squadrons used the Malcolm hood frequently so the hood itself isn't really an indicator of anything. And that's assuming you can even see the difference as you sweep in to shoot at your target.

[Rjel]

22 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Both American and British squadrons used the Malcolm hood frequently so the hood itself isn't really an indicator of anything. And that's assuming you can even see the difference as you sweep in to shoot at your target.

What I meant was, had the developers decided to release the B and C as separate aircraft and restricted the C to the British version, then it would simplify ID’ing it as such in the multiplayer world. I thought that was what an earlier post was advocating for two versions? Then again, my comprehension level ain’t always what it should be. 
 

 

[jollyjack]

seen this?: https://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/variants/p51b

[ACG_Cass]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:16 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

CountZero said he got 434 mph on the deck on winter map ?? but I haven’t checked. That would be 59 mph faster than the D-9 can do, lol.

Dora isn't affected by the cold. Take a K4 or a G14 on a super cold map and you'll get silly top speeds as well.

[ShamrockOneFive]

3 hours ago, Rjel said:

What I meant was, had the developers decided to release the B and C as separate aircraft and restricted the C to the British version, then it would simplify ID’ing it as such in the multiplayer world. I thought that was what an earlier post was advocating for two versions? Then again, my comprehension level ain’t always what it should be. 
 

 

I'm not advocating for a change. I was just helping connect some folks on what was done in the past and how it's done now. IMHO I think having it as a modification seems very workable. Quirk with the head movement and all.

[Avimimus]

I love the detail in this sim - you can really feel the differences in the vertical stabiliser between the B-5 and D-15!

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:49 PM, Rjel said:

When Chuck Yeager was asked what was so special about the P-51 he said (paraphrasing from memory) "The P-51 could do for eight hours what the Spitfire could do for 30 minutes." Then he added with that sly grin he had,  "Does that answer your question?" 

 

I figure if anyone should know, it was him.

 

Well I would take it with a grain of salt. Try to do what the spit does, during the first 2 hours, when loaded with fuel. 

 

I just tried it for the first time, its a superb aircraft.

 

[CUJO_1970]

7 hours ago, ACG_Cass said:

Dora isn't affected by the cold. Take a K4 or a G14 on a super cold map and you'll get silly top speeds as well.

 

P-51B 81" with -7 engine gets a 43mph speed boost on winter map. I got it up to 432 mph on the deck, others even claim more. The G14 by comparison gets an 18mph speed boost, so no. Not the same.

 

The FW190D-9 gets no speed boost at all on winter map and is an absurd 56 mph (91kph) slower on the deck  - complete nonsense.

 

The P-51B with the -3 engine on 130 grade fuel gets a 31mph speed boost on winter map and can do 406 on the deck. No 150 grade required, no -7 engine either, it is just as fast as a K4 DC running all out at 1.98ata.

 

The -7 on 130 grade gets a 36mph speed boost and does 411 mph on the deck on Rhineland Winter.