Update from devs on wing fixes

[artao]

Oh wow. So wait ........ It's NOT necessarily my fault that I keep ripping the wings off my S.E.5a? Interesting. Good to know. (It's the plane I've flown the most, as I'm doing the scripted campaign that uses it)

[Majpalmer]

I've been giving the SE5a another try. If I take ANY visible wing damage, I avoid high G maneuvers and disengage. So far I'm still alive, although it's frustrating. 

 

Speed is life!

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

3 hours ago, artao said:

Oh wow. So wait ........ It's NOT necessarily my fault that I keep ripping the wings off my S.E.5a? Interesting. Good to know. (It's the plane I've flown the most, as I'm doing the scripted campaign that uses it)

SPOILER.

 

You'll find same issue on Camel, and dolphin

 

☹

[=LD=Brazo]

I’m starting to love many aspects about the dolphin but it’s eagerness to shed its wings after little more than a dirty look from a central pilot does limit it’s combat effectiveness. 
 

on the other hand when they fix its wings… watch out

[Trooper117]

This is why I won't play FC...

[No.23_Starling]

On 3/30/2022 at 10:56 AM, Trooper117 said:

This is why I won't play FC...

You're not alone. I've reached out to Hotlead to see where we got to in pulling together a set of tracks for 1C to give examples of sheds, as per their request. If it's not happened yet I'll organise another call-out and collection of tracks.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

26 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

You're not alone. I've reached out to Hotlead to see where we got to in pulling together a set of tracks for 1C to give examples of sheds, as per their request. If it's not happened yet I'll organise another call-out and collection of tracks.

 

Yes, try it again. The wing shedding is frustrating, as is the lack of indicators that you are stressing the airframe. You'd think stressing and snapping spars would make a great deal of cracking and there'd be some notice that you were pushing the frame too hard, but it just goes "whoooosh" and all the wings are gone.  Some of the German planes also seem to have the issue.

 

But all of that being said, it's worth trying to make FC better rather than just abandon it entirely. I still see some potential, especially if a strong effort was made to correct the airframe issues and some of the energy loss and retention issues on some of the planes.

 

I see it as a flawed, once-per-week type thing at this point (there's a marital joke in there somewhere). The wing shedding would get old if I tried to fly this more often.

Edited March 31, 2022 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[SeaW0lf]

The shaking is a major problem as well, sort of a side effect of the malady these planes are suffering. On the video below, it appears to be a grazing shot of sorts, which does not even show on the parser (I landed with no report on the parser), but afterwards I started shaking like a couple longarines or a strut have been severed. It was visible, it made me worried. On the image you can see bullet holes on the left elevator. After landing, the ground crew only patched the skin (yup, the skin).

 

These things are not only a hassle, but have no basis to exist, unless we are talking about severe frame damage, like longarines and struts, making the plane fly sideways or wabble, sort of how it was with the original damage model, which was such a great departure from what we have in ROF, wich I think is still better than what we have now in Flying Circus.
 

 

And these incidents are common. The other day I was patrolling our side of the mud and I heard a pop. Just a pop. There was no one around, just a dogfight at the other side of the mud. Of course I had to go back to base because I was shaking, and lo and behold, the ground crew repaired the frame of my Camel (?). A stray bullet from nowhere. 

 

I hope they look at these things, not only because it is necessary, but because it was so good before that I'm not even sure how we got to this low point on the damage model for so long. Anyways, I hope we get these things fixed.

Edited April 27, 2022 by SeaW0lf

[ST_Catchov]

10 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

You're not alone. I've reached out to Hotlead to see where we got to in pulling together a set of tracks for 1C to give examples of sheds, as per their request. If it's not happened yet I'll organise another call-out and collection of tracks.

 

I'd also be interested to know if there has been any acknowledgement/actions/statements from the devs on tracks thus far supplied.

[No.23_Starling]

14 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

I'd also be interested to know if there has been any acknowledgement/actions/statements from the devs on tracks thus far supplied.

The CL2 was buffed and is great now. I’m going to start a thread shortly calling for tracks 

[SeaW0lf]

So folks, regarding the shaking and wing damage [Sopwith Camel], this is how my plane wobbled after being hit by three bullets (yes, just three). You can hear the washing sound of the wind coming and going as the plane wobbles, like whoosh… Whoosh… Whoosh. That put me in a bad place, because I could not turn properly and I had no idea what had happened to me. At one point I was assuming it was coming from the fatigue, since, even though we were low and throttling back a lot, I was getting some gray-outs. So I imagined it was coming from dizziness? Flying sideways and wobbling? It made me wary of every move and I almost hit the ground in a bounce.

 

The three hits came from a volley of the enemy and I saw no apparent damage (it hit me around the fuselage cockade). But the plane started to fly sort of sideways (?) and wobble in turns, which have happened several times before. In fact the vast majority of these volley hits (usually two or three hits) will make the Sopwith Camel starts to shake or wobble.
 

 Parser: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/sortie/log/324352/?tour=49

 

 

Also this week, I got another volley hit, just 5 bullets, and then I went for a descendant turn (I would say a mid level descendant turn) to fire at the enemy six and ‘bam’, my wings fell off. Meaning, you can’t get hit, because my recollection is that above 90% of these volley shots will cause shaking or critical damage to the Sopwith Camel. It is that bad. Sometimes the plane starts shaking and I have no idea why, like I just mentioned.

 

I do like to manage throttle and speed on the Camel since the physiology was introduced in late 2019, but boy oh boy, something is really wrong with it after March 2020.

 

Again, I hope they fix it as soon as possible.

Edited April 27, 2022 by SeaW0lf

[No.23_Starling]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, SeaW0lf said:

So folks, regarding the shaking and wing damage [Sopwith Camel], this is how my plane wobbled after being hit by three bullets (yes, just three). You can hear the washing sound of the wind coming and going as the plane wobbles, like whoosh… Whoosh… Whoosh. That put me in a bad place, because I could not turn properly and I had no idea what had happened to me. At one point I was assuming it was coming from the fatigue, since, even though we were low and throttling back a lot, I was getting some gray-outs. So I imagined it was coming from dizziness? Flying sideways and wobbling? It made me wary of every move and I almost hit the ground in a bounce.

 

The three hits came from a volley of the enemy and I saw no apparent damage (it hit me around the fuselage cockade). But the plane started to fly sort of sideways (?) and wobble in turns, which have happened several times before. In fact the vast majority of these volley hits (usually two or three hits) will make the Sopwith Camel starts to shake or wobble.

 

 

 

Also this week, I got another volley hit, just 5 bullets, and then I went for a descendant turn (I would say a mid level descendant turn) to fire at the enemy six and ‘bam’, my wings fell off. Meaning, you can’t get hit, because my recollection is that above 90% of these volley shots will cause shaking or critical damage to the Sopwith Camel. It is that bad. Sometimes the plane starts shaking and I have no idea why, like I just mentioned.

 

I do like to manage throttle and speed on the Camel since the physiology was introduced in late 2019, but boy oh boy, something is really wrong with it after March 2020.

 

Again, I hope they fix it as soon as possible.

Can you post the track on my thread please?

[SeaW0lf]

I'll send a PM.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

How about some links to the sortie log in the parser as well.

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 3/30/2022 at 10:08 AM, 76SQN-Brazo said:

I’m starting to love many aspects about the dolphin but it’s eagerness to shed its wings after little more than a dirty look from a central pilot does limit it’s combat effectiveness. 
 

on the other hand when they fix its wings… watch out

 

I have to admit: the Dolphin is worse than I remember it to be. Shedding wings in level flight from enemy fire at 6 o'clock is a bit dodgy. Obviously the meta is to go for wing hits on the Dolphin, but even so it would make far more sense for either the pilot to be accidentally wounded/killed first or the engine to catch fire before an unloaded wing breaks.

 

With the S.E.5a's gun alignment fixed I'm more inclined to fly that now.

[No.23_Gaylion]

 

[SeaW0lf]

20 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

How about some links to the sortie log in the parser as well.

 

I edited the post, but I'll wait for another update, when tracks can't be played anymore by us, to post a formal complaint (if I have some spare time to gather tracks and organize a case), then only the devs can check the tracks. Usually for me to post a track or a video, I do have to ask permission to players. If was like that on my channel in general.

 

I'm not recording tracks often, but if I did, I assume I would have at least one track per day. But I think people know this I suppose. We’ve been flying the same planes. I do post these videos because shaking to me is running under the radar and they might fix the wings and let us still fight with the shaking. So, with some feedback they maybe fix the shaking as well.

 

Anyways,

[J2_Bidu]

 

[SeaW0lf]

These rams are unpredictable. Many times you get out unscathed while the other plane blows up into a million pieces. Other times, you just brush wings and they fall apart. 

 

Amusing video, but a bit out of context. Fixing ramming dynamics would be at the end of the cue in my list.

[ST_Catchov]

Why don't they just fix everything ? It's such a crazy idea it might just work ! Simple and brilliant.

[=LD=Brazo]

6 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

These rams are unpredictable. Many times you get out unscathed while the other plane blows up into a million pieces. Other times, you just brush wings and they fall apart. 

 

Amusing video, but a bit out of context. Fixing ramming dynamics would be at the end of the cue in my list.

Agreed it’s happened to me so many times where I’ve exploded and the other person doesn’t even know they hit me.

 

And has happened the other way too, internet lag is often to blame.

[J2_Bidu]

13 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

These rams are unpredictable. Many times you get out unscathed while the other plane blows up into a million pieces. Other times, you just brush wings and they fall apart. 

 

Amusing video, but a bit out of context. Fixing ramming dynamics would be at the end of the cue in my list.

 

What I find enlightening in this video is that the DVIII doesn't just collapse. It starts spinning with the impact. So that whole force was applied to the plane. But the Camel felt nothing. This is beyond wing resistance.

[SeaW0lf]

1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

What I find enlightening in this video is that the DVIII doesn't just collapse. It starts spinning with the impact. So that whole force was applied to the plane. But the Camel felt nothing. This is beyond wing resistance.

 

And what ramming has to do with this thread? I'm pretty sure you know about lag hits and rams, as we mentioned. It has nothing to do with a particular plane, it happens with everyone and every plane.

 

Since I know that you know about lag hits, and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows about lag hits, I'm not sure what you want to accomplish with your video. 

 

Could you enlighten us?

[J2_Bidu]

2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

And what ramming has to do with this thread? I'm pretty sure you know about lag hits and rams, as we mentioned. It has nothing to do with a particular plane, it happens with everyone and every plane.

 

Since I know that you know about lag hits, and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows about lag hits, I'm not sure what you want to accomplish with your video. 

 

Could you enlighten us?

 

Sure, I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you require clarification, I'll provide it for your benefit: wing resistance is uneven across diverse situations: the same wing that is strong in one respect is quite feeble in another.

 

Beyond that, it also seems clear the application of forces on both planes involved in a collision is not considered equally. It can be applied to one plane and ignored on the other. As for lag hit, I don't see what in the video suggests it was such a case.

 

For other forms of enlightenment, read this: https://medium.com/jumpstart-your-dream-life/empty-your-cup-a-zen-proverb-on-opening-yourself-to-new-ideas-10e8c9545c7b

[SeaW0lf]

Lag hits were never about damage model. No plane would be able to go through another plane and not even shake. As it was mentioned, many times you don't even know you hit someone. As far as people know, and this is old news for anyone that started in ROF, *lag hits might be due to a multiplayer bug. A hitbox concrete like.

 

Anyways...

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by SeaW0lf

[=IRFC=Gascan]

I don't think wing toughness has anything to do with what was displayed in the video. Assuming this was on a MP server, it looks like one plane detected a collision and fell to pieces and the other one did not detect a collision. Any person who flies MP regularly can point to instances where they witnessed a collision or were participants in a collision where one plane carried on as if nothing happened. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's the other guy. This is a simulator game, it is not perfect. Whether it's lag or net code or something, not everything matches between different players' computers. It is also worth noting that tracks are an imperfect record of events: the data in the tracks is not updated as fast as the simulation actually runs, so any motion of the plane is a very good approximation of the event, not a perfect recreation of the event. Unless I'm missing something in the video, this has nothing to do with the toughness of the wings.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

3 hours ago, gascan said:

not everything matches between different players' computers. 

 

Yep.  That plus wide variables in player skill and equipment may explain why some experience wing-shredding while others do not.

 

I never saw an invisible Fokker (no pun intended) but I have seen the occasional weird occurrence: Camelbots doing the shimmy or flying into the ground for no apparent reason; both pilots instantaneously killed (and both planes destroyed) from the slightest wing-tip contact; etc.

 

Then again, I flew a Gotha through a hangar when there's no way it should fit; and all I got was a dinged aileron.  So sometimes it's a two-way street.

 

As you say, the sim's not perfect.  But for me, for the very most part, it flies just fine: I am not experiencing "wing-shedding" in the Camel or Dolphin. 

 

And I can understand if the Devs don't burden themselves with problems not everyone is having.  Especially since the apparent immunity of some would indicate those maladies are individual, rather than game-based. 

[J2_Bidu]

I need to make it clear that I am NOT advocating there isn't a wing shedding problem due to G effects. The observable reduction of wing shedding on multiplayer is most likely due to players going to extreme lengths to prevent it, making it perhaps their main worry, which makes no sense at all. Camel is prominently affected.

 

Having said that, this kind of collision was never frequent for me (and I fly mp exclusively) and never with rotation, etc. However, recently I have had several weird episodes against Camels specifically, to the point I'm actually mentioning this to my friends.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I have seen this type of collision in both FC and the WW2 aircraft when I host for the BlitzPigs.  I think many times it is connection related.  I'll be in formation with one of the Pigs and then I hear cursing on comms and he is going down in little pieces.  He says we hit each other.  I never felt or heard anything, and my P40 is totally undamaged, and his LaGG is splinters.

 

NOT a DM issue at all.

[J2_Bidu]

5 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 I'll be in formation with one of the Pigs and then I hear cursing on comms and he is going down in little pieces.

[...]

NOT a DM issue at all.

 

That just seems a little different in the sense that your collision was unnatural: you weren't flying over each other, etc. and all of a sudden something weird happens.

In this case each of us had, I believe, a very normal experience. I was aiming, he was aiming, there was an attempt to avoid, and we hit. No lag experienced which, of course, does not mean that lag did not play a part here - but it just did not feel like lag at all... The devs surely would make an educated guess. I do have the track somewhere (from before the update), just felt opening a bug with this by itself was not representative enough.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:49 PM, gascan said:

Assuming this was on a MP server,

Posting links to the PARSER would be useful (not videos or tracks).  Realising that 1 bullet can take out an engine from time to time, I'm still trying to find any plane in a MP server that consistently sheds wings after I hit them with three bullets (or 30).   I'm still looking.

Edited April 30, 2022 by J5_Baeumer

[SeaW0lf]

8 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

Posting links to the PARSER would be useful (not videos or tracks).  Realising that 1 bullet can take out an engine from time to time, I'm still trying to find any plane in a MP server that consistently sheds wings after I hit them with three bullets (or 30).   I'm still looking.

 

I think it depends on the planes you fly and what you are looking for or paying attention to. It would be very improbable that several veterans and aces (most of them I think) are saying the same thing. Even some real positive troopers, people invested in the game. We get used to the game, we fell the differences after updates right away. Who is right? Will the devs be able to separate the wheat from the chaff and take the right path? I hope they do.

 

We just report the things we feel in the planes we ride. And I have a few tracks and posts posted already, a couple more in store, and I'm not even looking for them. These are the tracks that I happened to have recorded. And I'm not even a turn and burn guy. I do like to throttle back a lot and go easy (it avoids rams).

 

And when online numbers are affected, it means thins are taking a negative toll on the game. And in general people are looking for realism, like when the first bunch played FC on the first week. When we saw it, the new DM and ballistics, meat or metal, no shaking, those rounds going straight in the distance, we were like “man, this is good!”. It gave me chills. I recall people mentioning this in chat. That was what held the fort here until Flugpark started to pack with players in late 2019.

 

But this is just me, my meager two cents.
 

[No.23_Starling]

It’s a little shocking that this is still being discussed. If there’s no issue then let’s put the CL2 back to how it was then shall we? Can anyone honestly say they preferred the CL2 being glass winged? I doubt it.

On 4/29/2022 at 4:32 AM, Todt_Von_Oben said:

 

Yep.  That plus wide variables in player skill and equipment may explain why some experience wing-shredding while others do not.

 

I never saw an invisible Fokker (no pun intended) but I have seen the occasional weird occurrence: Camelbots doing the shimmy or flying into the ground for no apparent reason; both pilots instantaneously killed (and both planes destroyed) from the slightest wing-tip contact; etc.

 

Then again, I flew a Gotha through a hangar when there's no way it should fit; and all I got was a dinged aileron.  So sometimes it's a two-way street.

 

As you say, the sim's not perfect.  But for me, for the very most part, it flies just fine: I am not experiencing "wing-shedding" in the Camel or Dolphin. 

 

And I can understand if the Devs don't burden themselves with problems not everyone is having.  Especially since the apparent immunity of some would indicate those maladies are individual, rather than game-based. 

Most entente MP pilots absolutely are STILL having this issue after two years, and those of us who have racked up 100+ streaks have done it by being insanely careful, RTBing after any damage at all, and nursing the stick in any high speed situation. Oh and dying 1000 times without a parachute to learn what you can just about get away with whilst still being a threat. You don’t have these worries in the Fokkers. I dare you to try and get even a 20 streak in an SE5a in MP.
 

Worst of all, it’s ahistorical. Just read Hotlead’s excellent analysis.

Edited May 2, 2022 by US103_Rummell
Spelling error

[ST_Catchov]

9 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

If there’s no issue then let’s put the CL2 back to how it was then shall we?

 

Who are the CL2 aces? Does anyone really care? What was the point? If the point was to show butterfly wings could be fixed then I expect the Camel and Se5a fixes will be imminent.

 

9 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

I dare you to try and get even a 20 streak in an SE5a in MP.

 

Has anyone actually done it?

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Who are the CL2 aces? Does anyone really care? What was the point? If the point was to show butterfly wings could be fixed then I expect the Camel and Se5a fixes will be imminent.

 

 

Has anyone actually done it?

I agree the CL2 showed it could be done but that was several months ago.

 

On the se5 streak, I know Wellington has done it at least once.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

#me too.

It is possible and not too hard if you know how to fly her...

Edited May 3, 2022 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Starling]

7 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

#me too.

It is possible and not too hard if you know how to fly her...

You’re one of the best pilots in the game and a dedicated admin. That’s the point. It is possible but you have to be very very careful and an excellent shot. 
 

You can throw the Diiia, DVII and Dr1 around like mad and don’t have any of the same issues, and can always bail out if you still screw up. It brutally unbalanced.

[SeaW0lf]

I was going to say that. Streaks are heavily pilot oriented, unless something is ridiculously off. Then someone goes out and do it, come back here with a print and people will be waiting for wing fixes until 2025.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

3 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

You’re one of the best pilots in the game and a dedicated admin. That’s the point. It is possible but you have to be very very careful and an excellent shot. 
 

You can throw the Diiia, DVII and Dr1 around like mad and don’t have any of the same issues, and can always bail out if you still screw up. It brutally unbalanced.

I doubt that. The thing with the S.E.5a is it is faster than anything central has. You can dictate the fight and engage and disengage as you please. If you screw up you can always dive for safety. If you have a wingman things get even easier. It is a different flying than with central planes I give you that but it is really not brutally unbalanced as you make it out to be. You just have to use your aircraft to it's strenght and exploit the weakness of the enemies plane. I would go out and say getting a 20 kill streak in an Albatros or Pfalz D.XII is way harder than with a Spad or an S.E.5a. Also you can not always bail out in central planes as you say. You can only use your chut over your own territory. Bailing out over enemy territory gets you nowhere. But you can always dive for safety in the fast entente planes no matter where you are.

Edited May 3, 2022 by J99_Sizzlorr

[Zooropa_Fly]

It probably should be hard to get a 20 streak.

According to wiki - there were 188 pilots credited with 20+ kills.

That's probably a very small percentage.

 

I'm with Todt - I'm not currently noticing Camels or SE5's being remarkably easy to shoot down - I've certainly never put one down with a 'magic bullet'.

Granted the German planes seem a bit tougher, but I expect some of them were in reality.

 

S!