Update from devs on wing fixes

[No.23_Starling]

Happy Christmas everyone!

 

I’m still loving the tougher wings now on the CL2 and the more reliable cables overall. Excellent direction of travel!

 

Could one of the devs give a timeline on the other major culprits, particularly the Dva, Dolphin, and Se5 (IMO all the Entente scouts from FC1 need to be brought in line with the n28 etc)? Of all the FC1 scouts those first two feel the most in need of a patch.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Camel wings need some love please.  

[SeaW0lf]

Yes, the Camel is bad since the start of these DM updates in March 2020. She folds her wings pretty easy. Every time I test her in single player, hoping for some hope, I have my WTF moments.

 

All planes should be looked equally to avoid conflict IMO. Basically everyone is looking for these fixes.

[HagarTheHorrible]

There seems to be a noise coming from the direction of the wings, it’s not always there, but, if you cock your head to one side and at just the right speed, if you listen really really carefully you can just about discern it, a faint but constant “whistling in the wind”.

 

Hell, if they can’t even be bothered to fix absolute, cast iron, bloopers, like the Viper engine on the SE5a, after god knows how many years, why would you think they are in any rush to cater to something so esoteric as the vagaries of battle damage from little ity-bitty 7.7mm bullets ?  
 

Not to sound cynical or anything !

[SeaW0lf]

It is not that. The thing is: everyone is expecting this fix, meaning sales, money, people happy on the forum, good rep for the game and, most importantly, bring it back to realism. Folding wings is something beaten to death in ROF and everyone knows it is arcadish, point-and-shoot gaming.

 

Its been two years. Maybe now it is happening, since some planes were fixed. I just hope that they will fix the shaking as well.

Edited December 27, 2021 by SeaW0lf

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

There seems to be a noise coming from the direction of the wings, it’s not always there, but, if you cock your head to one side and at just the right speed, if you listen really really carefully you can just about discern it, a faint but constant “whistling in the wind”.

 

Hell, if they can’t even be bothered to fix absolute, cast iron, bloopers, like the Viper engine on the SE5a, after god knows how many years, why would you think they are in any rush to cater to something so esoteric as the vagaries of battle damage from little ity-bitty 7.7mm bullets ?  
 

Not to sound cynical or anything !

Jason and the team sorted the control jams and the CL2 wings. Both have really improved the game (control surface fix has made a MASSIVE difference). I have faith the other planes will get a patch.

 

If they have a priority list I’d defo start with the Dva and Dolphin.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I’d really, really like to think you’re right, I just ain’t holding my breath.

[Feathered_IV]

I really wouldn't expect any fixes until after FC2 is complete at the very least.  

[No.23_Starling]

Any news on when we might see the Dva, Camel, SE5a etc wings addressed?

 

CL2 flies great now since the fix! We are so close to having this issue sorted. Would love to know when the last birds are planned to be amended.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Even a rough estimate or status update would be greatly appreciated. IMO

[BMA_Hellbender]

I’m a little bit out of the loop here, how exactly did they fix the CL.II? Did they determine it had a thicker wing spar or something?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

13 hours ago, Hellbender said:

I’m a little bit out of the loop here, how exactly did they fix the CL.II? Did they determine it had a thicker wing spar or something?

 

 

Not sure they ever revealed what exactly they did?  Others may have more info on that though.

[J2_Trupobaw]

No news can mean anything there...

[No.23_Starling]

I suppose Duke Nukem Forever did eventually arrive…a few years later

[Feathered_IV]

Weren't the control cable issues identified and fixed due to one of the staff members, who took it upon themselves to look into during their free time?  We need to get that guy another holiday.

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:59 AM, Feathered_IV said:

Weren't the control cable issues identified and fixed due to one of the staff members, who took it upon themselves to look into during their free time?  We need to get that guy another holiday.

 

Let's all chip in and get him some light vacation reading material.

[RNAS10_Oliver]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:59 AM, Feathered_IV said:

Weren't the control cable issues identified and partly fixed due to one of the staff members, who took it upon themselves to look into during their free time?  We need to get that guy another holiday.

 

FTFY

 

15. The excessive likelihood of control wiring damage on all Flying Circus aircraft has been corrected;

16. If control wiring is damaged on Airco D.H.4, Halberstadt CL.II, Bristol Fighter, Albatros D.Va and S.E.5a, Fokker DR.I, Fokker D.VII, Fokker D.VIIF, Fokker D.VIII the corresponding rudders will "dangle" along the air stream (other aircraft will be updated in the next update);

 

The other four aircraft from FC1 remain with jamming controls. Just occurs much less frequently.

Edited January 26, 2022 by RNAS10_Oliver

[No.23_Starling]

I saw more than one person rage quit out tonight on MP with wing losses on the DXII and SE5a, plus another last night in the Camel. It’s still losing us players ? Any idea on ETAs for fixes, anyone?

 

The CL2 flies great now, so it can be done.

[ST_Catchov]

I ain't heard nothin' ! Checked my notifications and messages 'n' all ! What gives ? I'm not diggin' it. Enquiring minds want to know.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Rage quitters will rage quit, one excuse or another. 

[J2_Trupobaw]

Meanwhile, the Dolphin pilots...

 

 

[JGr2/J5_Hotlead]

Yesterday one of my squadmates mentioned how he’s afraid to push his aircraft (Pfalz D.XII) because the wings pop off so easily. FC is a great sim, but this aspect seems less “sim-worthy” and hampers most people’s enjoyment of the game — at least in multiplayer. If you want to test this theory, just go onto Flugpark on Sunday afternoon and ask folks in chat if they think wings come off too easily in this sim. I guarantee chat will light up from so many people. It’s not just a few loud voices who think this is a problem; the community knows this is a problem. 
 

This being the case, a system-wide fix would certainly be very welcome. Doesn’t have to be right now (I know devs are super-busy) but I would love to know it’s in future plans. ?

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

What is more troubling are the people who still quit after thinking it over. Several squadron mates of mine have left FC because of the damage model issues: wings breaking suddenly, some planes absorbing massively more damage than others, new things becoming broken (e.g., Bristol altimeter worked then broke) etc. They thought about it, figured "this isn't getting fixed any time soon", and then went to another simulator. Then there are the content creators who have become disaffected. In the words of one creator several of our guys follow on YouTube, FC and the IL2 series generally has issues that he thought would never be resolved based on how things were going. He said he went over to DCS.

 

This isn't simple "rage quitting", it's something more concerning - it's quitting with reason. The WW1 simulation community is small enough as it is, let alone having people leave.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

I fly the Camel a lot online and I can usually take 1-3 of central of any kind before my wings go (or PK). So far nothing is "broken" as the DM is working as intended. I would however put a question mark on the drastic differences in wingshedding among similarly construchted planes, both in terms of realism and in terms of playability. This is a computer game after all. But I see that as a game design choice, not about something being "broken".

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

15 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

I saw more than one person rage quit out tonight on MP with wing losses on the DXII and SE5a, plus another last night in the Camel. It’s still losing us players ? Any idea on ETAs for fixes, anyone?

 

The CL2 flies great now, so it can be done.

 

I haven't seen as much Se5 wing shedding as of late.  As for the DXII.....I suggest the 3rd PG should equip themselves with captured aircraft.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I fly the Camel a lot online and I can usually take 1-3 of central of any kind before my wings go (or PK). So far nothing is "broken" as the DM is working as intended. I would however put a question mark on the drastic differences in wingshedding among similarly construchted planes, both in terms of realism and in terms of playability. This is a computer game after all. But I see that as a game design choice, not about something being "broken".

 

Prev Qtr:

 

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?tour=47&sort_by=-plane_survivability

 

Current:

 

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?tour=48&sort_by=-plane_survivability

Edited January 31, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[ZachariasX]

6 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

 

Prev Qtr:

 

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?tour=47&sort_by=-plane_survivability

 

Current:

 

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?tour=48&sort_by=-plane_survivability

Funny that the Fokker D.VII and D.VIIF differ so much in durability. It's the same aircraft. Pfalz D.XII comes out as relatively sturdy, more so than the D.III. Funny stats.

[No.23_Starling]

5 hours ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said:

Yesterday one of my squadmates mentioned how he’s afraid to push his aircraft (Pfalz D.XII) because the wings pop off so easily. FC is a great sim, but this aspect seems less “sim-worthy” and hampers most people’s enjoyment of the game — at least in multiplayer. If you want to test this theory, just go onto Flugpark on Sunday afternoon and ask folks in chat if they think wings come off too easily in this sim. I guarantee chat will light up from so many people. It’s not just a few loud voices who think this is a problem; the community knows this is a problem. 
 

This being the case, a system-wide fix would certainly be very welcome. Doesn’t have to be right now (I know devs are super-busy) but I would love to know it’s in future plans. ?

Spot on old pal. It’s just an update on timelines or even an intention to address which might never get attended.

 

We know we can get tweaks as the team did a great job amending the control surfaces and the CL2 which is now very competitive.

 

We are so close to the finishing line and it’s very sad and frustrating to see comments in MP chat so often.

 

As for the DXII, I’ll happily fly it regularly when I know it has been strengthened and can dive without nosing up. I thought the box wing design was supposed to have been copied from SPAD due to the ruggedness…

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Funny that the Fokker D.VII and D.VIIF differ so much in durability. It's the same aircraft. Pfalz D.XII comes out as relatively sturdy, more so than the D.III. Funny stats.

 

 

DIII  32.19

 

D12 28.47

 

D7 32.27

 

D7f 43.72

 

(yes the d7 & d7f is a bit perplexing)

 

Current Quarter (after control rod fix)

 

Camel 31.49

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

7F can escape at altitude while vanilla can't.

[BMA_Hellbender]

3 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

7F can escape at altitude while vanilla can't.

 

This.

 

The vanilla D.7 has nowhere to run, it's not fast enough and doesn't perform well at altitude compared to the Entente in-line scouts. It also has nothing on a Camel, not even speed. At least a D.8 is a small target with a thick wing and it can turn a little better. The only real advantage a D.7 has, is that it can initially be mistaken for a D.7F.

[US103_Baer]

18 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

I haven't seen as much Se5 wing shedding as of late.  As for the DXII.....I suggest the 3rd PG should equip themselves with captured aircraft.

Lol, Biddle is scary in a D12 btw.

But it's not like Spads are much better, we've just had more time for it to get really old.

Wing hits = out of the fight of you value vlife.

Still see DXII pilots pulling hard after getting hit. You're not in a D7, Dr1, D8 or PD3 now Dorothy

 

Looking forward to the fixes

Edited February 1, 2022 by US103_Baer

[J99_Sizzlorr]

Pfalz 12 wings are defenitly weaker than all Spads wings. You don't have to pull hard to rip them off. Got 3 hits in my wings and pulled moderatly out of the dive and my wings were gone. This never happened to me in a Spad this way. Pfalz 12 can't climb, can' turn, can't dive and can't sustain any damage. It basically can only straigt and level well. That's really not how it should be. Wings strength should be on Spad level and the dive is just ridicoulus with the P12.

[No.23_Starling]

18 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Pfalz 12 wings are defenitly weaker than all Spads wings. You don't have to pull hard to rip them off. Got 3 hits in my wings and pulled moderatly out of the dive and my wings were gone. This never happened to me in a Spad this way. Pfalz 12 can't climb, can' turn, can't dive and can't sustain any damage. It basically can only straigt and level well. That's really not how it should be. Wings strength should be on Spad level and the dive is just ridicoulus with the P12.

I thought the DXII box wing design was modelled on the SPAD because it was durable? Your one hit shed is familiar.

 

The climb should be good above 1.5k with the alt throttle fully engaged. My biggest issue is the nose up in a dive. When you reach a certain speed the nose automatically pushes up. This happened in RoF too. I’ve not seen a single source to corroborate this trait and I can’t understand it from an engineering perspective either.

[J2_Bidu]

4 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Still see DXII pilots pulling hard after getting hit. You're not in a D7, Dr1, D8 or PD3 now Dorothy

 

In terms of wing resistance, if you can fly a Dolphin, you can fly a DXII, just go gentle on it. But the spin seems even worse on the DXII, or I need more experience.

[US103_Baer]

30 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Pfalz 12 wings are defenitly weaker than all Spads wings. You don't have to pull hard to rip them off. Got 3 hits in my wings and pulled moderatly out of the dive and my wings were gone. This never happened to me in a Spad this way. Pfalz 12 can't climb, can' turn, can't dive and can't sustain any damage. It basically can only straigt and level well. That's really not how it should be. Wings strength should be on Spad level and the dive is just ridicoulus with the P12.

Of course,  but just because fighting with one hand behind your back is better than fighting with two hands behind your back, doesn't make it ok.

 

They ALL need fixing.  

[J99_Sizzlorr]

19 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

In terms of wing resistance, if you can fly a Dolphin, you can fly a DXII, just go gentle on it. But the spin seems even worse on the DXII, or I need more experience.

Turn your engine off then it will get out of the spin...

Edited February 1, 2022 by J99_Sizzlorr

[JGr2/J5_Hotlead]

2 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Pfalz 12 wings are defenitly weaker than all Spads wings. You don't have to pull hard to rip them off. Got 3 hits in my wings and pulled moderatly out of the dive and my wings were gone. This never happened to me in a Spad this way. Pfalz 12 can't climb, can' turn, can't dive and can't sustain any damage. It basically can only straigt and level well. That's really not how it should be. Wings strength should be on Spad level and the dive is just ridicoulus with the P12.

 

I would definitely agree with Sizzlorr on this one. The D.XII's wings are much more fragile than the SPAD XIII's. When attacked, a SPAD can pull a moderately-decent rollover and begin its power dive away. The D.XII can't initiate even a moderate rollover without losing its wings after taking any damage. And, as Rummell noted, it can't dive without pitching up, which really doesn't make sense for a heavy aircraft that was historically a good diver. 

 

Really, the D.XII is worse than the SPAD in every respect except for forward visibility and sheer speed at 4+ kilometers in altitude. To be fair, I would also posit that they are about the same in climb rate until about 2-3k or so, after which point the D.XII wins. So why do I fly it...? I like the stable gun platform better than the D.VII and I like the altitude throttle. Other than that, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. ? There's a reason you can always find D.XIIs available on Flugpark. ?

 

That all being said, I do agree with Baer that all aircraft (excepting the Bristols, Dr 1, D.VIIs, Breguet, D.VIII, DFW, and Halberstadt) need a buff. (The Pfalz D.IIIa actually needs a slight nerf IMHO. It can pull absolutely ludicrous maneuvers without ripping wings off. Transitioning from that to a D.XII — where sneezing pops your wings off — makes for a somewhat inconsistent experience. ?)

 

While the SPAD's wing durability is better than the D.XII, it still needs a bit of a buff. I still feel the SPAD loses its wings too easily in combat. I just don't quite agree with the statement "But it's not like Spads are much better, we've just had more time for it to get really old." We'd see a lot more dead SPAD pilots if wing damage was calculated for it the way it is for the Pfalz D.XII. And especially if, added on top of that, the SPAD couldn't even power dive away if it did survive the initial wingover when bounced. Our only consolation is that we have parachutes, and even then they only are useful over our own lines. (And I feel they should still have a percentage-based failure rate and add weight to the aircraft like other modifications, but that's a discussion for another time... ?)

 

In ROF, the D.XII was definitely more fragile in the wing department than the SPAD XIII. I wonder if this is a carryover factor here in FC? 

 

TL;DR - Please bring the D.XII up to SPAD standards in both wing durability and diving capability and buff both SPAD and D.XII wing strength a bit. Pretty please? ?

Edited February 1, 2022 by JG1_Hotlead_J10

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said:

a somewhat inconsistent experience

 

FC in four words.

 

If you've become a sporadic player such as myself (not by choice, life happened), then coming back to the game and having these wildly different dogfighting dynamics every six months makes it hard to take the experience very seriously. It's still a fun WWI-flavoured biplane sandbox experience, but it's also better to just take it all at face value. For now I'm curious whether we'll get the nerfed or pre-nerf Triplane, and just how ludicrously OP the collector planes will be. Really looking forward to the forum drama either way.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Hellbender

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

10 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Lol, Biddle is scary in a D12 btw.

 

 

Biddle would be scary in a balloon.