How to turn fast in Spitfire 9?

[MMM3k]

What's the fastest way to turn in the Spit 9? I bank the plane 90 degrees and pull hard on the elevator but the G forces are too much. Any better methods?

[=420=Syphen]

1 hour ago, MMM3k said:

What's the fastest way to turn in the Spit 9? I bank the plane 90 degrees and pull hard on the elevator but the G forces are too much. Any better methods?

 

Staying coordinated with the rudder and elevator and learning to ride the edge of the greyout/blackout is the best you'll be able to do. 

[oc2209]

Cut throttle prior to entering a turn, never turn hard over about 230 MPH.

 

Never enter a turn at emergency power (or even full combat power, usually). The only time to turn with more than 70% throttle is a climbing turn; the climb will lower your speed and keep G-forces manageable.

 

I would turn at approximately 50-70% throttle in most cases, depending on how much speed you had beforehand.

Edited December 25, 2021 by oc2209

[=621=Samikatz]

If you're not being directly tailed you can add a vertical element to your turn and do a kind of twisted corkscrew thing. You lose speed as you go up, turn really tight at the slow top of the climb, then come back down hill with the throttle open. It's a good way to cut off the turn of slower aircraft while staying behind them, the risk is you're an easy target at the top of your turn

[Raptorattacker]

Familiarising yourself with the co-ordinated turn is the best method as =Syphen= says.

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Cut throttle prior to entering a turn, never turn hard over about 230 MPH.

 

Never enter a turn at emergency power (or even full combat power, usually). The only time to turn with more than 70% throttle is a climbing turn; the climb will lower your speed and keep G-forces manageable.

 

I would turn at approximately 50-70% throttle in most cases, depending on how much speed you had beforehand.

Never cut your throttle, unless you're trying to force an overshoot on your pursuer. Full throttle will help by increasing elevator and rudder authority by adding propwash along the tail of the aircraft, and keep your speed up as the increased drag in the turn slows you down, so that you can turn faster. If you find you're going too fast to turn well, either climb in the maneuver =621=Samikatz describes, or start turning at a smaller rate and increase the turn rate as you slow down. Cutting your throttle will only sacrifice energy, which might sometimes help you in the short time but in the long term will alway bring you a disadvantage.

 

6 hours ago, MMM3k said:

What's the fastest way to turn in the Spit 9? I bank the plane 90 degrees and pull hard on the elevator but the G forces are too much. Any better methods?

Pull less hard. G-forces depend on the turn radius, and the speed squared. As you turn (or climb, which is generally the better solution), your speed will decrease and you can pull tighter turns without blacking out. Until you reach a certain speed, you'll have to pull less hard to avoid this. Exactly how much you can pull is experience.

 

As your speed drops, you will eventually reach the optimal turn speed (you can find it in the aircraft notes). This speed brings you the tightest turns you can make *with full power*, and keep up the turn rate until eternity (or rather, until your fuel runs out). Go slower, and you'll actually turn less tight. Go faster, and you might turn tighter, but you'll quickly lose speed and you'll draw extensive G-forces (which is what you're experiencing). Therefore, once you reach the optimum turn speed, let go of the stick a little as it's only counterproductive if you keep pulling.

[Avimimus]

8 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

If you're not being directly tailed you can add a vertical element to your turn and do a kind of twisted corkscrew thing. You lose speed as you go up, turn really tight at the slow top of the climb, then come back down hill with the throttle open. It's a good way to cut off the turn of slower aircraft while staying behind them, the risk is you're an easy target at the top of your turn

 

Yes... and by climbing you are banking your energy for use later... but it leaves you more vulnerable while at the top (so make sure you really are alone except for your target - if anyone tries to rescue him you are potentially setting yourself up as a target).

 

Very gentle entry and exits from turns also helps... but sharp turns will exhaust your pilot even if they don't cause you to black out... so only use them when it is tactically useful.

 

Of course, flying early war aircraft the gee forces are lower, the wing-loadings tend to be lower too... so if you want a fight with constant aerobatics and slashing attacks... a ballet if you will... then pick an I-16 or Bf-109E or something like that!

[No_Face]

While reading this topic I realize that I still have a lot to learn.
 

Anyway I always had problems to manage energy.

 

(I fly on the axis planes but your answers remain applicable)

[MMM3k]

What's the best angle of bank for a turn? Sometimes I feel like 90 is too hard but 30 is too low.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

2 hours ago, MMM3k said:

What's the best angle of bank for a turn? Sometimes I feel like 90 is too hard but 30 is too low.

Whatever gives the result you desire. If you want to make a very sharp horizontal turn, you'll need to be close to 90 degrees. If you find you're dropping, bank a little less until your vertical speed remains zero. If you end up climbing, bank a bit more. Then again, of course there's no real reason to make your turns perfectly horizontal. You're not a stunt pilot who's judged on the beauty of his performance - whatever ensures that you end up alive and your opponent dead, is perfectly acceptable.

 

Note that it's often undesirable to make horizontal turns at all. Generally speaking, if you need to make a tight turn, try to climb while (or before) doing so, so that you can later regain at least some of the kinetic energy you'll lose. A good read is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers, especially the sections about the Immelmann, Split-S, High Yo-Yo and Low Yo-Yo.

Edited December 25, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Never cut your throttle, unless you're trying to force an overshoot on your pursuer. Full throttle will help by increasing elevator and rudder authority by adding propwash along the tail of the aircraft, and keep your speed up as the increased drag in the turn slows you down, so that you can turn faster. If you find you're going too fast to turn well, either climb in the maneuver =621=Samikatz describes, or start turning at a smaller rate and increase the turn rate as you slow down. Cutting your throttle will only sacrifice energy, which might sometimes help you in the short time but in the long term will alway bring you a disadvantage.

 

Well, he didn't specify whether he was flying against people or AI. Nor did he specify his opponent's airplane. These are all factors that would matter as to how safe you were cutting throttle into a turn. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that he was referring to AI combat. I further assume he's somewhat of a novice pilot.

 

I find that with most novice pilots' complaints about blacking out in Spitfires, they're going too fast and pulling too hard. Solve one problem, the simpler problem, and the overall G-force issue is mitigated.

 

I would also add that Marseille cut throttle into his turns. But he was also facing, usually, planes with inferior performance to a 109F.

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, MMM3k said:

What's the best angle of bank for a turn? Sometimes I feel like 90 is too hard but 30 is too low.

 

I find it's better to not consciously think about these things. Overthinking will usually ruin your performance.

 

I made a clip to explain what I mean, probably better than words can:

 

Spoiler

 

 

A 109G-6 Late w/boost is a strong turner, even in AI hands. That's why I picked it for this clip.

 

The clip is long and boring, but I made it long on purpose. The Spitfire can be turned for days if you watch your speed. You'll note I keep my turning speed between 180-200 MPH most often. You can see my speed gauge most of the time, and you can always see my RPM, which is an indicator of when I'm at full or less than full throttle (when the RPM reads '30', it's full throttle).

 

At these speeds, I can perfectly match or exceed a 109's turn performance; with absolutely no danger of blacking out at any time.

 

If I had any hard rule to follow, it would be this: if your nose is above the horizon, full throttle. If your nose is below the horizon in a continuous turn, lower throttle. Otherwise your speed will build up too quickly, and that's how you burn G-endurance needlessly.

Edited December 26, 2021 by oc2209

[busdriver]

...

Edited March 11, 2022 by busdriver

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Well, he didn't specify whether he was flying against people or AI. Nor did he specify his opponent's airplane. These are all factors that would matter as to how safe you were cutting throttle into a turn. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that he was referring to AI combat. I further assume he's somewhat of a novice pilot.

While it's true that a human opponent is generally smarter than an AI, this should not matter for the question of whether or not to cut your throttle. What's a bad idea for one is a bad idea for the other, and vice versa.

 

Likewise, the opposing airplane doesn't really matter (it might make some BFM maneuvers more advantageous than others, but the general adage that you should conserve energy is still valid). Sure, if you're flying a 109K-4 against an I-16, you can cut your throttle just fine without exposing yourself to much direct danger. But even then, you don't know if he has buddies hiding behind the clouds, in which case the energy you just carelessly spilt could still mean the difference between life and death.

 

4 hours ago, oc2209 said:

I find that with most novice pilots' complaints about blacking out in Spitfires, they're going too fast and pulling too hard. Solve one problem, the simpler problem, and the overall G-force issue is mitigated.

While it's true that lowering your speed helps with G-forces, if you have a choice between pulling less hard or cutting throttle, the former is usually the better solution (unless there's an enemy on your tail and you need some sharp maneuvering). Also, as busdriver mentioned, cutting the throttle isn't gonna help with turning fast, which the OP's question is, as the fastest sustained turn rate is achieved at full throttle, and for the fastest instantaneous turn it'll probably help as well by adding some propwash to your control surfaces.

 

I think it's better to teach someone the best practices right from the start, than to teach something that works but is less optimal. In the latter case, there comes a time when he finds himself limited by those bad habits and he'll have to relearn everything to continue to grow.

 

EDIT: perhaps I sound a little bit too harsh here. Of course, there are situations where it's acceptable to cut your throttle. I do it as well, and pretty often even. But you should be aware that cutting your throttle exposes yourself to danger. If you're in a complex dogfight where you're not sure about everyone's position and energy situation, if there's any viable alternative to cutting your throttle, you should probably take it.

Edited December 26, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

EDIT: perhaps I sound a little bit too harsh here.

 

No problem, I understand what you and @busdriver are saying.

 

It's just my opinion that, when dealing with (what I assume are) novice pilots, they should be given simple advice. Which they are, of course, free to ignore if they prefer the more detailed and complex advice. It'll ultimately be up to them to decide which advice proved more helpful in their specific cases.

 

So I'm not giving my suggestions as 'better than' yours or anyone else's. I'm just explaining what I've done that works for me, and the OP can take it or leave it as needed.

 

I probably should have made that clearer in my first post in this thread.

 

In terms of what mistakes you make that the AI can exploit, eh, while I do respect the AI, I must be honest when I say that energy retention is practically a non-factor when surrounded by AI, even at Ace level. At least, I never think about it at all. What I do know, is that I can enter a continuous turn in a 109, on combat power (i.e, 80% of full throttle), and I never need to worry about being hit while turning. The AI quite simply cannot pull enough lead to hose you in a turn. At best, it can hit your tail, and only then with machine guns, not cannon. It can't compensate at all for the drooping trajectory of heavier cannon shells.

 

Needless to say, this would not hold true in multiplayer with human opponents.

[Roover]

Never slow down. Speed is life.

 

Use high yoyo or low yoyo to get the target in sight.

 

Use to energy fighters so can't comment on spit. But never, never slow down. Keep the greeds in the bank.

 

U nerver know who's gonna be after u after the fight.

 

Merry Chistmas all

 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Roover said:

Never slow down. Speed is life.

 

 

In a Spit maybe - but I made a good living sucking opposing pilots into low and slow knife-fights and killing them while flying the Zero or I16 in the old sim.  With some matchups trying to be fast will just get you killed because your “fast” gets you into a dangerous part of your relative performance  envelopes.

 

So so while I get the whole “speed is life” thing - it’s not always that simple.

 

Knowing your aircraft’s corner speed is essential, as is practice being there when it matters. However this is just a transient advantage and if you’re entire repertoire is “stick to dick” then you’re going to lose a lot of fights.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Gambit21

[RyanR]

Blackouts are caused by two things rate of turn and speed. You need to reduce one or the other.... or both.

 

There's been an interesting discussion elsewhere on this forum that demonstrated the Spitfire's control "stick" doesn't translate well to a flight sim joystick. A little joystick input becomes a LOT of Spitfire control yoke input.

 

If you have a *need* to turn so tight that you're blacking out, you've already made a mistake. Practice avoiding those situations entirely. Assess the situation to avoid having to do emergency defensive maneuvers, and use vertical maneuvers as much as possible.

 

-Ryan

[Irishratticus72]

Handbrake.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Irishratticus72

[busdriver]

...

Edited March 11, 2022 by busdriver

[ZachariasX]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:13 AM, MMM3k said:

What's the fastest way to turn in the Spit 9?

What is fast? What do you want to do? Just pulling back until you get near blackout gives you the fastest 90° turn, but just straight up.

 

When you turn, you have an idea what your plan is. If it is justflying, you're always fast enough.

 

If you are fighting, then it depends both on your aircraft's capabilities in comparison to your adversary and on your current flight speed/energy state. Corner speed is a concept that does not apply in any practical way in this game in beating your oponent in a 1 vs 1 match. What is important is what is the max sustained turn rate and what is your instantaneous maneuvrability. The first one tells you how long it will take you to fly a full circle is susuained manner. The second one is about how easy it is to get a nose on solution on your mark. For example the Spit is great at sustained turns and you will want to draw your quarry into a two circle fight, while the Me-109 excells at the later, being incredibliy potent in one circle fights.

 

Hence the Spit is about the fastest thing fast in two circle fights, while being above average in one circle fights. That is fast for you in the Spit.

 

Other than that, any defensive turn is ALWAYS both a

1 hour ago, Irishratticus72 said:

Handbrake

turn, as well as a turn that is at maximum level or much preferably with the nose below the horizon. There's this entire "speed is life" gang out there that like to do passes at you while using  their higher speed to immediately disengage after a pass. If you pull up in any way and at any speed (you are always slower than them!) whatsoever, you just commited suicide by serving yourself on the platter. If you split-S, the faster assailant has a huge problem: going down after you will make him even faster and he will fly a far larger circle than you (plus risking to auger straight in).

 

Remember: there's two ways to fly a circle fast: either by pulling your nose around quickly (going for angles) or flying a given circle faster (going for the rate). The fastest turn to fight you oponent is always going for the rate first, until your speed dropped to the speed ouf your best turn rate. For practical purposes, this is 300 km/ in all of the WW2 birds. Maybe a tad slower, yes, but you'll bleed excessively on speed anyway aget slower.

 

"The fastest turn" you asked about by it's very nature is a defensive turn (else "fast" ist not that important), where you force a nose on situation (going for the one circle fight). As you initiate your roll, you will preferably push as well on the stick, because the evil guy coming for you has you in your sights and you, just rolling, will remain there as long as you are "just rolling". Hence, you force yourself out of his aim by pushing forward (pulling back slows you down and makes you a larger, juicier target), roll as hard as you can and pull the plane in the tightest circle that you can while immediately doing the handbrake thing: throttling fully back. This will ensure that not only you fly the fastest circle (you are riding the blackout doing that), but being slow also makes you fly the smallest circle. (It takes less time to fly the smaller circle and you complete that one faster at the same speed!).

 

Never, never, NEVER climb in a dogfight when there's even a remote chance that the bad guy has a nose on on you. If they take passes at you, any turn that is not at least a split-S kills you. You'll be on the deck very fast. The evil "speed is life guys" can only either let you go or follow you on the deck. At the deck, in the Spitfire you will basically just fly behind the aircraft in his flight trajectory aiming for his tail and position yourself in the control zone, waiting for your mark to get out of options (the Spit always wins here) and then you just kill him.

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

No...just no. There's a reason it's called G Induced Loss of Consciousness and not Turn Rate Induced Loss of Consciousness. 

Maybe you didn't understand the way RyanR phrased it, but he's right. The formula for G-force equals 9.8*(v^2)/r. V is speed, r the turn radius. The turn radius depends on speed and turn rate. So you've got speed and one variable that depends on speed and rate of turn. Therefore, G-forces depend on turn rate and speed.

 

13 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

In a Spit maybe - but I made a good living sucking opposing pilots into low and slow knife-fights and killing them while flying the Zero or I16 in the old sim.  With some matchups trying to be fast will just get you killed because your “fast” gets you into a dangerous part of your relative performance  envelopes.

 

So so while I get the whole “speed is life” thing - it’s not always that simple.

 

Knowing your aircraft’s corner speed is essential, as is practice being there when it matters. However this is just a transient advantage and if you’re entire repertoire is “stick to dick” then you’re going to lose a lot of fights.

It's true that it depends somewhat on the aircraft - if your energy disadvantage is so tremendously hopeless that there's no chance that you'd ever gain the upper hand, you might as well stop caring about energy altogether and hope your opponent follows you into a low energy state where you might have the advantage. However, with such an aircraft, there's no way to force a victory and you're basically dependent on your opponent doing stupid things. If you've got two perfect pilots who both do not make a single mistake, and no clear way for one opponent to close the energy gap, the opponent with the higher energy level will always win, or at least draw. That's at least one of the reasons those Zeroes were shot down in droves in the latter parts of the war - they could still outturn almost every Allied aircraft, but the Allies had the energy advantage and had learnt to use it.

 

35 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

"The fastest turn" you asked about by it's very nature is a defensive turn (else "fast" ist not that important), where you force a nose on situation (going for the one circle fight). As you initiate your roll, you will preferably push as well on the stick, because the evil guy coming for you has you in your sights and you, just rolling, will remain there as long as you are "just rolling". Hence, you force yourself out of his aim by pushing forward (pulling back slows you down and makes you a larger, juicier target), roll as hard as you can and pull the plane in the tightest circle that you can while immediately doing the handbrake thing: throttling fully back. This will ensure that not only you fly the fastest circle (you are riding the blackout doing that), but being slow also makes you fly the smallest circle. (It takes less time to fly the smaller circle and you complete that one faster at the same speed!).

While I understand your reasoning, and agree with part of it, I don't think it's entirely clear whether or not the OP *means* it as a defensive turn. Perhaps he wants to "turn inside the circle" to get his crosshairs on the bandit he's pursuing. In which case it's *always* a bad idea to turn hard, beyond very short periods.

 

Where I agree with you is that in some defensive situations, a "fast turn" is a valid tactic, just like throttling back is a valid target to force an overshoot (again - throttling back will not magically tighten your turn!). However, one should be aware that by executing those manoeuvres, you're severely damaging your own energy situation. If your pursuer uses proper tactics, on his next attack he'll have an even greater advantage. There's only so much advantage you can give to your opponent before you're shot down.

Edited December 26, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Gambit21]

28 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

...you're basically dependent on your opponent doing stupid things. 

 

Exactly - and almost every time they do. That’s the point.  I’m talking online here - not real life.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

21 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

you're severely damaging your own energy situation. If your pursuer uses proper tactics, on his next attack he'll have an even greater advantage.

He cannot unless he disengages. A one circle fight leads always to a slow-speed-all-down-competition, even with the F-18. My energy situation has no meaning as long as the other can make a nose-on for a gun solution on me. I have to prevent that by all means and "hugging" him one circle is just the way tto do it. By slowing down he either disengages, overshoots or slows down as much as I do, hence my energy situation, as bad as it might be, is the same as his. Unless he bailed the fight and regroups for another attack.

 

My point is, the faster is ALWAYS in command of the situation. It doesn't matter how one's own situation is, it is ALWAYS worse than his is. You will never see any successful MP ace (certainly not the russian Mob) on the servers not cutting throttle in a turn, unless they chose to rate-fight you. This is almost always on the deck or very high up where speeds are sufficient for separation out of a firing solution.

 

The slower has no means to escape the faster aircraft, no matter of his energy state. Going fast makes the plane with the better elevator response win the fight with ease instead of the "best turning plane". That is the difference of going fast or slow.

[busdriver]

...

Edited March 11, 2022 by busdriver

[AEthelraedUnraed]

12 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Exactly - and almost every time they do. That’s the point.  I’m talking online here - not real life.

Can't argue with that

 

12 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

He cannot unless he disengages. A one circle fight leads always to a slow-speed-all-down-competition, even with the F-18. My energy situation has no meaning as long as the other can make a nose-on for a gun solution on me. I have to prevent that by all means and "hugging" him one circle is just the way tto do it. By slowing down he either disengages, overshoots or slows down as much as I do, hence my energy situation, as bad as it might be, is the same as his. Unless he bailed the fight and regroups for another attack.

You're right, however I was thinking more about the long-term future. If you're combating a single aircraft, it's perfectly valid to waste energy if you end up shooting the enemy down, or at least don't give away any advantage you may have had. However if there are other bandits around, breaking off and regrouping is indeed the better solution if you don't want to end up getting shot by one of your target's friends

 

22 minutes ago, busdriver said:

I know some folks have a really hard time believing this...I actually have a fairly reasonable grasp of TEACHING this topic. Telling somebody to watch their turn rate and speed is pretty worthless advice. It simply shows knowledge of the equation, ignoring the patently obvious fact a gamer has ZERO way of measuring turn rate. If you want to defend worthless advice, have at it. I can say with 100% certainty that no instructor fighter pilot told his/her student fighter pilot "blackouts are caused by two things turn rate and speed." No fighter pilot has ever heard the critique, "ease off your rate of turn." Plenty of mission debriefs and inflight commentary (by an IP in the backseat) have included "watch the G, ease off on the G, more G."

 

I'm done, you've convinced me I'm wasting keystrokes and time.  Merry Christmas

That instructors would phrase it otherwise doesn't make it an invalid claim

 

The problem here is that the OP apparently doesn't yet have a good grasp of G-forces, so "watch the G" won't really help him. You gotta explain *how* you need to "ease off on the G", and there are exactly two ways to do so: turn less tight or fly slower.

[oc2209]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:56 PM, AEthelraedUnraed said:

While it's true that a human opponent is generally smarter than an AI, this should not matter for the question of whether or not to cut your throttle. What's a bad idea for one is a bad idea for the other, and vice versa.

 

Likewise, the opposing airplane doesn't really matter (it might make some BFM maneuvers more advantageous than others, but the general adage that you should conserve energy is still valid). Sure, if you're flying a 109K-4 against an I-16, you can cut your throttle just fine without exposing yourself to much direct danger. But even then, you don't know if he has buddies hiding behind the clouds, in which case the energy you just carelessly spilt could still mean the difference between life and death.

 

Not to beat dead horses here, but I thought about this and decided to make a 1v8 scenario out of it.

 

Instead of a 109K, however, I chose an F-4. Flying a K would, ironically, force me to fly at full throttle all the time; because at combat power, it could never do sustained turning versus an I-16 without stalling. The F-4, by contrast, can do so.

 

Here's the example:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I stay in an I-16's perspective for the early part of the clip because I want to show how a human in the same position would be able to attack me.

 

While the AI has made great improvements regarding strafing and hitting low targets, it's still pretty shy about diving on targets in a slow circle at low altitude. I exploit this weakness regularly.

 

Truth be told, hitting the deck and turning or evading would probably be good enough to avoid being shot by the majority of actual combat pilots. I've read plenty of accounts of these situations. But it wouldn't save you from experienced or ace-quality pilots. The AI, as we know, is always going to be inferior to a top-level human. Which is hardly surprising, since no AI in any game can ever keep up with the best people.

 

Where the AI will punish you, consistently, is if you climb above a certain altitude (300m or so), and then fail to keep up your speed besides. There's an example of that in this clip: I (recklessly, on purpose) climb almost straight up to attack. The 109, with its poor roll rate, simply cannot drop back down fast enough to avoid being hit.

 

However, in the turn, regardless of how low my speed is, so long as I keep my altitude low enough--and when I do 'pop up' to make an attack, I go back down quickly--the AI cannot really punish me for dumping all of my speed in a constant turn.

 

I've juggled multiple attackers like this since the beginning of IL-2.

 

What I'm curious about, is how you (or anyone else reading this) would handle the same 1v8 situation, at the same starting altitude (300m). If anyone wants to recreate it in detail, I give everyone 200L of fuel, and 4/8 of the I-16s have 20mm.

 

I'm not issuing a challenge or boasting. I'm just showing what I do in this situation against AI, and I'd like to see how other people would approach it. For the record, I failed 3/5 of the attempts I made. All of those failures involved breaking my rule of staying too high for too long. The tricky part is choosing a target that you know you can turn inside, without wasting too much time chasing them. And, of course, actually hitting the target.

Edited December 27, 2021 by oc2209

[BlitzPig_EL]

The one thing that the AI are insanely over the top at, especially at "ace" level, is the long range head on shot.  They are truly other worldly in this context.

[Talisman]

Let the force be with you.  Don't over-think things and trust your instincts.  Think about 'energy', how to best manage your energy to your advantage and be alive to the way the bandit is managing its energy.  You have room for a lot of trial and error, as you can can just press the keyboard to re-fly any time.

 

Have fun.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman 

[oc2209]

13 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The one thing that the AI are insanely over the top at, especially at "ace" level, is the long range head on shot.  They are truly other worldly in this context.

 

I know I'm going overboard with the clips, but I decided to test this too.

 

I'm in a G-6 Late with a 30mm, versus a Yak-9T. Guess who wins. Go on.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I did beat a MiG several times in a row, with me in an F-4. He hit my wing both times, but not severely.

 

The 9T beat me twice in a row. Crippled my engine the first time, tail the second.

 

He didn't even notice the 30mm hit he took to his wing. I hit him at approximately 590m, while he hit me a fraction of a second later at about 530m. So we more or less have the same level of accuracy.

Edited December 28, 2021 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

13 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The one thing that the AI are insanely over the top at, especially at "ace" level, is the long range head on shot.  They are truly other worldly in this context.

 

Oh really? Why haven't you said anything before now?

[Dragon1-1]

That, and blind deflection shooting.  I'm pretty sure I've seen them take and land shots where the target was completely obscured by their engine cowling.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That, and blind deflection shooting.  I'm pretty sure I've seen them take and land shots where the target was completely obscured by their engine cowling.

Not sure this is a problem. I do it fairly often and actually used to be way better at it in the old ‘46. Pull lead through the target and fire when he disappears below the cowl. Badda bing, badda tat tat tat.

[danielprates]

23 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The one thing that the AI are insanely over the top at, especially at "ace" level, is the long range head on shot.  They are truly other worldly in this context.

 

Just yesterday I thought about this. Youtube, with its weird "would you like to watch this now?" algorythm, suggested me a few of those "LW gun camera" videos of B17s being shot to pieces from 6 o'clock. I immediatelly though "oh well, in real life, for sure...."

[RyanR]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:40 PM, busdriver said:

 

I know some folks have a really hard time believing this...I actually have a fairly reasonable grasp of TEACHING this topic. Telling somebody to watch their turn rate and speed is pretty worthless advice. It simply shows knowledge of the equation, ignoring the patently obvious fact a gamer has ZERO way of measuring turn rate. If you want to defend worthless advice, have at it. I can say with 100% certainty that no instructor fighter pilot told his/her student fighter pilot "blackouts are caused by two things turn rate and speed." No fighter pilot has ever heard the critique, "ease off your rate of turn." Plenty of mission debriefs and inflight commentary (by an IP in the backseat) have included "watch the G, ease off on the G, more G."

 

I'm done, you've convinced me I'm wasting keystrokes and time.  Merry Christmas

 

 

Just to chime in as I'm apparently an idiot.

 

The laws of physics dictate the effect, but of course you can't teach it this way in practice. BTDT in an AT-6 (inverted and nose down in a split-S) with an IP in the back seat.

 

Worth turning on the G-meter when new to the game.

 

-Ryan

[Gambit21]

11 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That, and blind deflection shooting.  I'm pretty sure I've seen them take and land shots where the target was completely obscured by their engine cowling.

 

Standard practice...can't tell you how many online kills I got like that in years past. Pew pew pew...drop the nose to observe the effect or lack thereof.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, I can do it, but it's always a chancy shot, and it only works when the target is just below the cowling, and not "somewhere down there." I'm pretty sure even at the lower settings they're pulling more lead than they should be able to, not to mention deflection shots in general should be restricted to high skill levels IMO, this is advanced gunnery that most WWII pilots couldn't do.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 12/27/2021 at 4:45 AM, oc2209 said:

 

Not to beat dead horses here, but I thought about this and decided to make a 1v8 scenario out of it.

 

Instead of a 109K, however, I chose an F-4. Flying a K would, ironically, force me to fly at full throttle all the time; because at combat power, it could never do sustained turning versus an I-16 without stalling. The F-4, by contrast, can do so.

 

Here's the example:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I stay in an I-16's perspective for the early part of the clip because I want to show how a human in the same position would be able to attack me.

 

While the AI has made great improvements regarding strafing and hitting low targets, it's still pretty shy about diving on targets in a slow circle at low altitude. I exploit this weakness regularly.

 

Truth be told, hitting the deck and turning or evading would probably be good enough to avoid being shot by the majority of actual combat pilots. I've read plenty of accounts of these situations. But it wouldn't save you from experienced or ace-quality pilots. The AI, as we know, is always going to be inferior to a top-level human. Which is hardly surprising, since no AI in any game can ever keep up with the best people.

 

Where the AI will punish you, consistently, is if you climb above a certain altitude (300m or so), and then fail to keep up your speed besides. There's an example of that in this clip: I (recklessly, on purpose) climb almost straight up to attack. The 109, with its poor roll rate, simply cannot drop back down fast enough to avoid being hit.

 

However, in the turn, regardless of how low my speed is, so long as I keep my altitude low enough--and when I do 'pop up' to make an attack, I go back down quickly--the AI cannot really punish me for dumping all of my speed in a constant turn.

 

I've juggled multiple attackers like this since the beginning of IL-2.

 

What I'm curious about, is how you (or anyone else reading this) would handle the same 1v8 situation, at the same starting altitude (300m). If anyone wants to recreate it in detail, I give everyone 200L of fuel, and 4/8 of the I-16s have 20mm.

 

I'm not issuing a challenge or boasting. I'm just showing what I do in this situation against AI, and I'd like to see how other people would approach it. For the record, I failed 3/5 of the attempts I made. All of those failures involved breaking my rule of staying too high for too long. The tricky part is choosing a target that you know you can turn inside, without wasting too much time chasing them. And, of course, actually hitting the target.

Thought I'd take you up on the challenge that you're not issuing. Same setup as you, Bf-109F4 vs 8x I-16 of which four have 20mm cannons, starting altitude 300m, everyone 200L of fuel. Only difference is that I used the summer Velikie Luki map, because I like it. You didn't mention the AI level, but I used Veteran.

 

I even made a recording of it, but I can't get Blender to correctly sync the audio and video (never recorded anything before), so instead I'll just describe my tactics. It took me 30 minutes, but it ended with 6 I-16s shot down while 2 I-16s made it back to base, both heavily damaged. I think maybe 2 or 3 I-16s during the whole engagement were in any position where they might obtain a viable firing solution for one or two seconds, and only one ever fired. Missed by a mile. That's pretty successful in my book: 6 kills, 2 damaged and not a single bullet hole in my 109.

 

First I did was turn away from the I-16s and climb. No energy fighting at low altitude. Once I reached a sufficient altitude, 2 or 3 km, I went into a climbing spiral (overall, during the engagement I kept climbing and at some point I ended up well above 6km altitude). As the I-16s spiralled as well, I tried to pick out the stragglers one by one, using a series of High- and Low-Yo-Yos. I kept my speed high, making sure I was always in a superior energy position to the Russians. This gave me only a short window to fire, but with the Messerschmitt's cannons, a short window is enough. Whenever I'd overshoot, I pulled up and traded back my excess speed for altitude. I never followed an I-16 into a turn, and never set my throttle to less than combat power.

 

Sure, it wasn't the most exciting fight ever, and I'd generally not fight so methodically. But it definitely ensured my unnamed Bf-109 pilot lived to fight another day. I also felt pretty safe doing it, and although I "only" flew against Veterans, I don't think the Ace AI, or humans for that matter, would have fared better except perhaps using better evasive manoevres.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

9 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

 or humans for that matter, would have fared better except perhaps using better evasive manoevres.

 

Agree on everything except this.

Eight human I-16 will never follow you up to the clouds, they will stay low possibly close to a forest.

So, or everybody go back home without firing a bullet or you will be forced to engage a low altitude dogfight

[AEthelraedUnraed]

42 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

Agree on everything except this.

Eight human I-16 will never follow you up to the clouds, they will stay low possibly close to a forest.

So, or everybody go back home without firing a bullet or you will be forced to engage a low altitude dogfight

I agree. I should probably have made that part a little clearer. Following a climbing Bf-109 is probably the worst thing you can do in an I-16. I meant to say that humans stupid enough to do so would not fare better, not humans who'd stay low

Edited December 29, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed