BF109K-4 20mm Nose Cannon

[UncleJunkie]

I just updated my game, and I could have swore you could swap out the 30mm nose gun for a 20mm, like you can switch the 20 for a 30 in the G14, but I do not see the option now.

 

I don't see anything about it in the update notes.... so am I just going crazy or did the K4 used to have a 20mm option?

[FeuerFliegen]

The K4 never had a 20mm nose option; the only 20mm option is for the gunpods.

[the_emperor]

And unlike the game suggests, the 30mm was not a field modification but a certain version that came with it from the factory with the U4 (G-6/U4 , G-14/U4 , G-10/U4) designation, since the cannon mounting was quite different (this could maybe be changed during a bigger overhaul).

The closest would be the G-10 (20mm cannon, DB605D, optional front landing gear cover, non retractable rear landing gear).

Edited December 20, 2021 by the_emperor

[Avimimus]

The G-14 has fairly similar performance if you really want a late war MG151 equipped Bf-109 now.

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

The G-14 has fairly similar performance if you really want a late war MG151 equipped Bf-109 now.

 

First the G10 has more performance than the G-14 and later the K-4 has clear more power than the G-10. So, no the K-4 plays another league.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

7 hours ago, the_emperor said:

And unlike the game suggests, the 30mm was not a field modification but a certain version that came with it from the factory with the U4 (G-6/U4 , G-14/U4 , G-10/U4) designation, since the cannon mounting was quite different (this could maybe be changed during a bigger overhaul).

The closest would be the G-10 (20mm cannon, DB605D, optional front landing gear cover, non retractable rear landing gear).

Don’t quote me on this but I’m pretty sure the majority of g10s were equipped with the mk108 firing through the propeller hub. 

[the_emperor]

@69TD_Krokodil_Dundee I wont ?. IIRC ~400 G-10/U4 (30mm) out of ~1500 delivered

but dont quote me on that ? Iam sure someone here has access to the literature with the right numbers 

Edited December 20, 2021 by the_emperor

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

25 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

@69TD_Krokodil_Dundee I wont ?. IIRC ~400 G-10/U4 (30mm) out of ~1500 delivered

but dont quote me on that ? Iam sure someone here has access to the literature with the right numbers 

Maybe I’m thinking of /AS engined g10s or 14s…. 

[CUJO_1970]

G-10 used primarily the 20mm cannon. It was a direct bastard of G6/G6/AS and brought those aircraft up to approximation of K4 performance at times being produced side by side with the Kurfurst, as at Regensburg.

 

The only block AFAIK that was serially produced with MK-108 were those produced at WNF, as WNF typically produced 109s with 30mm cannons (G-6/U4; G-14/U4; G-10/U4)

 

Oh -and G/10 with 20mm was considered by many veterans to be the best late war 109 dogfighter.

39 minutes ago, 69TD_Krokodil_Dundee said:

Maybe I’m thinking of /AS engined g10s or 14s…. 

 

G-10/AS may be somewhat redundant designation as they already had the big supercharger fitted to it's 605 DB/DC engine, just like K-4.

 

/AS would be earlier designation for those G5/G6 and G/14 that used the bigger supercharger from the 605 DB/DC engine bolted on their 605A motor.

[LukeFF]

I think the other place where 30 mm - armed 109s were built was the Danube Aircraft Factory in Hungary. 

[Retnek]

I've read several reports about Luftwaffe-pilots who changed the 109's 30 mm cannon against a 20 mm at the local workshop. At least those pilots with some prestige in the squadron were allowed to do so (educated guess). The greenhorns usually had to take what was available - cannon-fodder for the grinder. The bad reputation of the 30-mm to jam under high g-load never was cured until the end of war. So it would add to realism to have both options for 109-models equipped with the 30-mm-cannons. I don't expect the developers to jump into the boiling pot "simulated gun jamming".

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1 hour ago, Retnek said:

I've read several reports about Luftwaffe-pilots who changed the 109's 30 mm cannon against a 20 mm at the local workshop. At least those pilots with some prestige in the squadron were allowed to do so (educated guess). The greenhorns usually had to take what was available - cannon-fodder for the grinder. The bad reputation of the 30-mm to jam under high g-load never was cured until the end of war. So it would add to realism to have both options for 109-models equipped with the 30-mm-cannons. I don't expect the developers to jump into the boiling pot "simulated gun jamming".

They wont. Devs stated very early on that all aircraft will be factory fresh with no weapons jams or random engine failures. While accurate those things detract from good gameplay too much. It’s a simulation but in the end it’s also entertainment.

[BlitzPig_EL]

They do it for the WW1 kites though, just sayin'.

[Lusekofte]

I hate those pesky 30 mm.

Too many of them and too many good shooters out there

[Retnek]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

They do it for the WW1 kites though, just sayin'.

My impression of that jamming is a more or less statistically produced standard-jam easily cured by pressing the reload-button. Imho that's a detail to add some colour. Since I rarely fly those inherent dangerous fabrics : is there any research or real-world statistics behind that WW1-jamming?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

They do it for the WW1 kites though, just sayin'.

 

37 minutes ago, Retnek said:

My impression of that jamming is a more or less statistically produced standard-jam easily cured by pressing the reload-button. Imho that's a detail to add some colour. Since I rarely fly those inherent dangerous fabrics : is there any research or real-world statistics behind that WW1-jamming?

 

Flying Circus and Rise of Flight do NOT simulate jams - they have misfires which can be cleared. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by LukeFF

[Fritz_X]

22 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

 

Flying Circus and Rise of Flight do NOT simulate jams - they have misfires which can be cleared. 

 

Going a little bit offtopic here, but...

 

If you would get a dollar for making that statement, you'd be effin' rich.

[Retnek]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Flying Circus and Rise of Flight do NOT simulate jams - they have misfires which can be cleared. 

I see the difference. Now I know, thank you.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Number one reason for a malfunction on a WWII Browning .50 M2 was a lite primer strike.  They were also prone to run away if you squeezed off a 150 round burst or more.  It would be neat if overheated guns caused some of them to run away and cook off the belt.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

2 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Number one reason for a malfunction on a WWII Browning .50 M2 was a lite primer strike.  They were also prone to run away if you squeezed off a 150 round burst or more.  It would be neat if overheated guns caused some of them to run away and cook off the belt.

Depends on the M2 placement as well. P-51 B/C’s had the guns canted to fit inside the wing. The angle of the gun/feed chute caused them to jam under high G loads. It was resolved on the D by mounting them upright which solved the feeding issue.

 

Also, pretty much any closed breech full auto can runaway. If it gets hot enough to cook off the round in the chamber. I’ve seen M-60’s do it IRL. You can find videos of full auto Glocks and Barretta 92’s do it. You gotta be kinda stupid and abuse the sustained rate of fire to do it from a magazine fed system though.

Edited December 21, 2021 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[sevenless]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:39 AM, UncleJunkie said:

I don't see anything about it in the update notes.... so am I just going crazy or did the K4 used to have a 20mm option?

 

The K4 had no 20mm option. You want a Mtt or Erla produced G10 (non U4) for that. Maybe we get one if the next module is called Eastfront 44/45.

 

Wołowski, Krzysztof. BF 109 Late Versions (White Series). MMPBooks.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by sevenless