Reihenabwurfgeraet (stuka automatic pull up)

[Seren77]

So can someone educate me on this. I can't find any information that the Reihenabwurfgeraet was removed from the D variant. I can't see any keybinds for it in the game. I thought maybe it's like IL-2 Cliffs of Dover how it's engaged if the airbrake is on. Though it happily dove straight into the snow and exploded with the airbrake on.

 

So was this feature removed from the D variant or is it not going to be in this Simulator, or is the Stuka unfinished (I see the dive siren has a lock on it)

 

Or is there a keybind I'm missing to activate it.

 

Thanks 

[FuriousMeow]

I just did "stuka pull out" in the search and found this in a matter of seconds...

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7029-ju-87-contact-altimer-and-auto-recover/?p=125622

[Seren77]

I just did "stuka pull out" in the search and found this in a matter of seconds...

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7029-ju-87-contact-altimer-and-auto-recover/?p=125622

 

thanks, of course I used the search feature. It has 0 results for "Reihenabwurfgeraet", not heard anyone refer to it as pull out before.

[FuriousMeow]

Well, what does it do? It pulls the plane out of a dive. I'm just saying, you have to be creative with search terms just the same as using Google.

[Seren77]

You got to remember not everyone thinks like a cat. Though I guess I can forgive a cat for jumping on people.

 

for the record 27% of women still get pregnant using pull out according to google search. No one got pregnant using the Reihenabwurfgeraet.

[FuriousMeow]

No one got pregnant using the Reihenabwurfgeraet.

 

That's questionable, I don't believe any data was ever recorded by the LuftWaffe on that matter. However, I'm sure that someone will be able to find some statistic about the appropriate forces required that would be negated by the Reihenabwurfgeraet and thus through a long convoluted internet argument thread we'd find out that a time traveling Nazi experimental UFO is in fact what killed the dinosaurs due to repeated anal probing.

[Finkeren]

No one got pregnant using the Reihenabwurfgeraet.

Well actually, I heard the German soldiers considered Brest Fortess "impregnable" until the Stukas showed up.

 

[6high]

Reihenabwurfgerät translates roughly to something like "droping 'em in a row"

At first i thought "pull out" is missing the context, but coming to think of it....it does seem quite fitting.

Edited July 10, 2014 by 6high

[SKG51_robtek]

As a matter of fact the "Reihenabwurfgerät" was only used for level bombing and would be as useful to a stuka like a bicycle for a fish.

[CreepiJim]

We still need the recovery system. Although the D variants were not as automated as the B series (no automatic drop and recovery), it was "the" most important feature of the Ju-87.

[Requiem]

We still need the recovery system. Although the D variants were not as automated as the B series (no automatic drop and recovery), it was "the" most important feature of the Ju-87.

Yep, + 1. This and the siren is what I'm waiting to get implemented before recording dive bombing with this one.

[migmadmarine]

Isn't the siren implemented already? Activated by a field mod? 

[Seren77]

No the siren seems separate from the field mod on UI and has that big padlock on it. Although I have a passion for the stuka information is pretty vague as far as the internet goes. As far as I know only the B model had a siren. When I recently watched "Enemy at the gates" about the battle of Stalingrad the stukas had sirens (can't rely on hollywood film)

 

The sirens are visible on the landing legs

 

Currently not modelled in BoS

 

I would love to see a photo of a model besides the B with them.

 

Also the air brake seems quite weak in this compared to cliffs of dover and dare I say it, warthunder. 

 

I think these features are what makes the stuka a stuka. Without them it's just a slow fighter. I would have imagined the airbrake and auto pullup would have given the stuka some unique options vs a fighter.

 

Surely being able to dive vertically at a slower rate than a fighter would make them overshoot and the knowing a fighter pilot would black out trying to compete with the Reihenabwurfgeraet

[FuriousMeow]

Don't compare one title to another, compare it to the real thing. The physics modelling in this title is, dare I say it? Of course! because it is absolutely true and accurate, well beyond War Thunder and even CloD!

 

The point of the dive "brakes" wasn't to slow down to overshoot a fighter, its to maintain speed in a dive to drop a bomb. Now knowing you want to use the dive brakes to cause fighters to overshoot - even in a "dive," a much clearer picture is present.

Edited July 11, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Seren77]

Don't compare one title to another, compare it to the real thing. The physics modelling in this title is, dare I say it? Of course! because it is absolutely true and accurate, well beyond War Thunder and even CloD!

 

The point of the dive "brakes" wasn't to slow down to overshoot a fighter, its to maintain speed in a dive to drop a bomb. Now knowing you want to use the dive brakes to cause fighters to overshoot - even in a "dive," a much clearer picture is present.

 

I can't tell if your'e being a jerk or not, maybe I'm misreading. Obviously I know what dive brakes are for. Obviously there are no real stukas left flying. Obviously this sim is just one programmers interpretation of historical data.

 

Either way go do some dive bombing in this simulator and see if it does what you claim it does.

[CreepiJim]

The dive brake puts you into a dive automatically, if not countered by trim or pitch. Not happening in BoS. So much for physics and flight model. CloD did it right, even if it was scripted or not. This is how it should be in BoS.

[Sternjaeger]

"Tante Ju, Tante Ju! How was I born?!"
"Weeell.. your mum asked your dad 'Are you using protection?' and dad said 'Don't worry hunny, I'm a B model, I have the Reihenabwurfgerät!'...... and that's how you were born, baby Stuka" 

Edited July 11, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[LukeFF]

 

 

I would love to see a photo of a model besides the B with them.

 

There are plenty in the Black Cross / Red Star books. 

[Seren77]

There are plenty in the Black Cross / Red Star books. 

 

Thanks I watched a documentary today and it showed them being used later on. Said stukas took out 1000 soviet planes (mostly grounded) and only lost 35 stukas doing so.

 

great to watch if you have 50 minutes spare. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qbGT5txVM

 

Also heard another stuka pilot say the dive siren reduced speed in a dive by up to 20kph. He also said the bombs had cardboard pipes on them that whistled.

[TJT]

D model with the siren in place. It varied alot on individual aircraft judging from pictures.

 

[FuriousMeow]

I can't tell if your'e being a jerk or not, maybe I'm misreading. Obviously I know what dive brakes are for. Obviously there are no real stukas left flying. Obviously this sim is just one programmers interpretation of historical data.

 

Either way go do some dive bombing in this simulator and see if it does what you claim it does.

 

You said the below which indicates you want to use the dive flaps as a gamey option to cause fighters to overshoot you. That's what I was picking out.

 

 

 

I would have imagined the airbrake and auto pullup would have given the stuka some unique options vs a fighter.

 

Surely being able to dive vertically at a slower rate than a fighter would make them overshoot and the knowing a fighter pilot would black out trying to compete

The dive brake puts you into a dive automatically, if not countered by trim or pitch. Not happening in BoS. So much for physics and flight model. CloD did it right, even if it was scripted or not. This is how it should be in BoS.

 

You're telling me the dive brakes pull the nose down into a dive without touching the stick? If that were the case, it would keep pulling the nose around and you'd do an inverted loop. In CloD you have to push the nose forward to dive. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35214

[CreepiJim]

I am telling you, FuriousMeow. The manual states that you could keep horizontal flight by countering the dive by pulling the stick back. The elevetor trim is also adjusted with the dive brakes, so you can only pull the stick 5° back from centered position, in emergencies up to 13° with high wing loads on the elevators.

 

I only know CloD with TF4.x, you go automatically into a dive as you should.

 

 

Mit dem Anstellen der Sturzflugbremse neigt das Flugzeug dazu, durch das selbsttätige, gleichzeitige Anstellen der Abfangvorrichtung von selbst in den Sturzflug überzugehen. Es ist trotzdem möglich, noch in Horizontalfluglage weiterzufliegen.

 

Zweck der Abfangvorrichtung ist, die Höhenrudertrimmklappen, die beim Ausfahren der Sturzflugbremsen angestellt werden, nach dem Auslösen der Bombe wieder in ihre Normalstellung zurückzuführen, um dadurch das Abfangen aus dem Sturzflug einzuleiten.

 

Sicherheitssteuerung

Beim Sturzflug mit angestellter Sturzflugbremse wird gleichzeitig ein Anschlag mittels Drucköles verstellt, der nur ein Ziehen des Steuerknüppels bis etwa 5° von der Normalstellung aus zuläßt, so daß also das Höhenruder nur einen geringen Ausschlag nach oben hat.

Dadurch wird vermieden, daß beim Abfangen aus dem Sturzflug unzulässig kleine Abfangradien entstehen, d. h. das höchstzulässige (sichere) Lastvielfache n = 6 wird nicht überschritten, wodurch bleibende Formveränderungen des Flugzeuges vermieden werden.

Notfalls kann der Knüppel überzogen werden, wobei dieser einen Ausschlag bis zu etwa 13° von der Normalstellung aus zuläßt. Bei eingefahrener Sturzflugbremse ist die Sicherheitssteuerung (wie auch die Abfangvorrichtung) wieder abgeschaltet.

[Seren77]

You said the below which indicates you want to use the dive flaps as a gamey option to cause fighters to overshoot you. That's what I was picking out.

 

 

 

 

You're telling me the dive brakes pull the nose down into a dive without touching the stick? If that were the case, it would keep pulling the nose around and you'd do an inverted loop. In CloD you have to push the nose forward to dive. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35214

 

It is not a civilian aircraft, flaps don't have to be used for landing, gear does not have to be used for taxi. engine parameters do not have to be followed. Engines don't have to be running. There are no rules. In war they did whatever it took. You sound like the type of person who would tell Japan off for destroying ships without using weapons. You can't do that cheaters! it's not a game!

 

Blechbohrer I I have tf 4.31 installed and made a dive bomb video a few days ago. It does not auto dive. Stukas would roll inverted before starting the dive as shown in the documentary.

 

The airbrake in clod does prevent over speeding in a dive though as documented, in BoS not so much.

[donkeycods]

I am telling you, FuriousMeow. The manual states that you could keep horizontal flight by countering the dive by pulling the stick back. The elevetor trim is also adjusted with the dive brakes, so you can only pull the stick 5° back from centered position, in emergencies up to 13° with high wing loads on the elevators.

 

I only know CloD with TF4.x, you go automatically into a dive as you should.

I imagine the reason the manual says that is because the dive brake induces drag which slows the plane thus meaning you need more lift.  The only way to generate the same amount of lift with more drag and less speed is to pull back the stick and maintain level horizontal flight.  Not because the dive brake automatically puts you into a dive.

 

I have a question about the purpose of the dive recovery system though.  What is it's purpose?  Why can't the pilot just pull up out of the dive?  My assumption is it's to avoid overloading the wings or if the pilot blacks out.

[CreepiJim]

Last time I played CloD I went into a dive after extending the dive brake. Strange. Could have sworn it was intentional.

 

Anyhow, a Stuka does dive automatically with air brakes extended and elevator trim. You don't need the Stuka roll to do that. It was mostly used to see the target better through the cockpit instead of the floor window.

[CreepiJim]

Seren, just for you I have remapped my new HOTAS to test out CloD. The dive brakes put me into a dive without any joystick input. Not saying "I was right!", just for you to test yourself.

 

@Donkeycods: Not just the dive brakes were activated when pulling the lever. The elevator trims were set to dive, so you have control surfaces pushing the plane down into a 90° dive without pilot input.

 

The dive recovery was used for safety of the pilots. They sometimes blacked out and would've crashed without the recovery. After the pre-set altitude, the plane would retract the dive brakes and set the elevator trim to pull up out of a dive automatically in a 6g climb. In the D version (we have in BoS) the B-button (bomb release on the stick) will not initiate the recovery, only the contact altimeter for the pre-set altitude. Usually in a B2 you pushed the release button and  the plane would release the bombs and pull up.

 

Later they changed this to a pilot action to release the bombs at any time and the recovery would only kick in at the set altitude. However, some bombs were required to be released in the pull up as the g forces were needed to release the heavy bombs. This means you had to set the release altitude correctly or operate the dive brakes manually.

[FuriousMeow]

It is not a civilian aircraft, flaps don't have to be used for landing, gear does not have to be used for taxi. engine parameters do not have to be followed. Engines don't have to be running. There are no rules. In war they did whatever it took. You sound like the type of person who would tell Japan off for destroying ships without using weapons. You can't do that cheaters! it's not a game!

 

 

No, it is gaming it. Flaps were used historically for better turning, many pilots did that and some planes came equipped with combat flaps for exactly that reason. Landing gear was used as air brakes in only one plane - the F4U because they were intended to be used as that. Using them any other way is gamey. Using dive brakes to cause a fighter to overshoot is gamey, that was never used. Secondly, you are only going to be shot down a second later when the plane comes back and shoots your even slower plane down.

 

Yes, it is gamey - because not only is it pointless do it since you're only throwing off one pass and it isn't instantly like hitting the brakes in a car, it is just additional drag so it slows down the plane to keep it from overspeeding in a dive with zero throttle.

 

Blechbohrer, I'm afaid you are wrong - dive brakes do not throw aircraft into a dive. Not on any aircraft that has them will do that, and there are a lot of aircraft with dive brakes. It will cause the nose to dip a bit slowly, which does happen in BoS - but it will not just toss it tail over nose into a dive. If it did that, it would require full back pressure on the stick to maintain a vertical dive with that much force coming from the dive brakes.

Edited July 11, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Seren77]

Furious I have to teach you some things. Modern planes have features that the Stuka had. Those big airliners flying every day have air brakes and Air craft warning systems. They are not just used for dive recovery. The air craft warning system has a audio warning that is a voice. When you get close to the ground from descent for example it says "pull out, pull out" oh wait that makes no sense and it does not say that at all. They actually say "pull up, pull up"

 

Maybe you can write a letter and tell them and explain they are pulling out of descent not pulling up and ask companies like Airbus to have it changed?

 

Civilian air craft are not the only planes to have Air brakes. Tank killers have them, fighters have them. Movies plots where even made about them. 

 

Do you remember when Maverick said I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by. Goose didn't say but Maverick I was reading some forums and this cat said we can't use the brakes for that, it's gamey we can only use it during a dive. and Maverick says ok thank god for that cat on the forum gets shot by a missile and dies. Wait that's not how the movie goes. Maverick ignores the forums cats advice and relies on his instincts and military training instead hits the brake instead and gets a target lock.

 

Air brakes can and are used in combat. Stop trolling my thread 

[CreepiJim]

I am wrong? Oh, sorry. So we need to rewrite history and thell the Ju-87 it did not go into a dive because you said so?

 

I am not writing my opinion, I am giving solid facts. And as I said it was not just the dive brake which was activated, but I guess you just want to provocate in this thread. If you can't accept the facts, you should not comment.

 

 

 

[...]that was never used[...]

Evidence? Or just your opinion?