FW-190 D-9, Do I doing something wrong?

[Roland_HUNter]

Hi everyone!

I just testing in my freetime, what is the max speed for the planes in different seasons.

In Winter, almost all the planes are faster, except the D-9.

Example:
At Summer at sea level.:
G-14 578 km/h
D-9 605 km/h and the D-9 has only 1.68 ATA, instead of 1.8 ATA.

At Winter at sea level.:
G-14: 611 km/h
D-9 607-609 km/h and the D-9 has only 1.68 ATA, instead of 1.8 ATA.

What Am I doing wrong?

[Asgar]

You will only achive 1.8 ata in the D-9 on the second super charger gear. So only at higher altitudes

[Bremspropeller]

49 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

What Am I doing wrong?

 

Nothing.

The MBG regulates based on air-volume.

In general, you'll gain less performance at colder temperatures realtive to other airplanes.

But you'll also lose less performance during warm temperatures in relation to others.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Nothing.

The MBG regulates based on air-volume.

In general, you'll gain less performance at colder temperatures realtive to other airplanes.

But you'll also lose less performance during warm temperatures in relation to others.

But if other planes are faster at winter, the D-9, why not?

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

The MBG regulates based on air-volume.

If it regulates based on air volume, then there is more oxygen in the inlet under cold air conditions than under warm air conditions, because of the higher densitiy of cold air. If it would regulate based on air weight, it would be something different.

[Bremspropeller]

3 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

If it regulates based on air volume, then there is more oxygen in the inlet under cold air conditions than under warm air conditions, because of the higher densitiy of cold air. If it would regulate based on air weight, it would be something different.

You're correct, I brainfarted. It's regulation is actually based on air-mass.

I was thrown off by the term "Füllungsregelung".

 

Here's two excerpts from the Motor-manual:

 

 

 

It nicely illustrates how the supercharger will produce less MAP at lower temperatures.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[Yogiflight]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

It nicely illustrates how the supercharger will produce less MAP at lower temperatures.

It is also interesting, that the pilots had to fly it according to the RPMs, not the MAP, as it was before. Which of course makes sense with the MAP set differently with different air temperatures.

[Cpt_Siddy]

This sounds like something that got carried over from bomber configuration. Why would you regulate in relation to stoichiometric accuracy and not the safe knock conditions? 

This will give you very good fuel mileage but it will sell your engine short on max performance. 

[Dr_Molem]

5 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

This sounds like something that got carried over from bomber configuration. Why would you regulate in relation to stoichiometric accuracy and not the safe knock conditions? 

This will give you very good fuel mileage but it will sell your engine short on max performance. 

 

Interesting...

[Roland_HUNter]

Greetings!

I am pretty sure something is wrong with the winter speed of the Fw-190 D at sea level.

A-4: 595 km/h
A-5: 600 km/h
A-6: 600 km/h
A-8: 611 km/h
D-9: 614 km/h with 100% thermostate.

Only 17 km/h faster than at summer? When the A series or any other planes are 30-42+- km/h faster at winter than summer ?

Please investigate the matter!

In the past I already posted about this:

 

[CUJO_1970]

614 km/h - You got better top speed than I did with Dora-9, I essentially got no real speed increase at all in winter tests - but that was some months ago and things could have changed.

 

At the time I tested the issue was made worse by the huge wintertime over-performance of 'certain' aircraft where you combine excessive winter over-boost with the low RPM engine exploit.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:23 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

I am pretty sure something is wrong with the winter speed of the Fw-190 D at sea level.
[...]
Only 17 km/h faster than at summer? When the A series or any other planes are 30-42+- km/h faster at winter than summer ?

Please investigate the matter!

I'm not really an expert on engines, but it seems to me this was already answered by Bremspropeller above:

 

On 12/11/2021 at 6:02 PM, Bremspropeller said:

In general, you'll gain less performance at colder temperatures realtive to other airplanes.

[Roland_HUNter]

13 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I'm not really an expert on engines, but it seems to me this was already answered by Bremspropeller above:

 

What Brems said a little bit nonsense:

Because all the other machines run in the summer at the speeds specified in the machine descriptions. This is also true for the D-9, in fact... the D-9 has a speed of 607 km/h in the description, but it can only reach 595-597 km/h in summer.

So this claim, therefore, does not stand up.

 

I continue to ask that the matter be investigated.

[CountZero]

maybe here youll fined what your confused about

 

 

 

[Roland_HUNter]

3 hours ago, CountZero said:

maybe here youll fined what your confused about

 

 

 

So, As I read, it should be investigated by professionals/devs.

[Roland_HUNter]

And fun fact, with max output you can reach 614 km/h at winter with P-40 at deck ?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

58 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

So, As I read, it should be investigated by professionals/devs.

They might not be Devs, but I personally certainly regard Bremspropeller, ZachariasX and JtD as professionals when it comes to engines or aerodynamics.

[Roland_HUNter]

35 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

They might not be Devs, but I personally certainly regard Bremspropeller, ZachariasX and JtD as professionals when it comes to engines or aerodynamics.

Yes, and they are wrote something maybe wrong with the thermodynamics.

[Roland_HUNter]

7 minutes ago, CountZero said:

good luck with that lol

Why?
Are game developers not interested in developing and improving the game?

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Roland_HUNter said:

Why?
Are game developers not interested in developing and improving the game?

4 years and nothing changed, and it was questioned from day 1 of D9, i highly doubt now they gona fined time to check on it now when we are suposed to get new exiting project they work on

[LukeFF]

Stay on topic or more posts will start to disappear. 

[CUJO_1970]

7 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

And fun fact, with max output you can reach 614 km/h at winter with P-40 at deck ?

Which points to one of the bigger issues in the sim - the over performance boost ‘certain’ aircraft get on winter maps is much more than it should be. This is made worse with the ability to further increase speed by maxing out engine boost, while lowering prop pitch - something that would cause detonation in real life, but is an exploit in the sim. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by CUJO_1970

[ZachariasX]

Just for the sake of completeness, I suppose you all are aware that TAS varies with temperature and what you are getting from the HUD is IAS?

 

I once did test flights with the D9 here (because this very topic was brought up) in the game and while the D9 gets indeed a tad slower when it is cold, this due to denser air (more drag) but identical amount of power output on the shaft (mass regulation). I found the game almost perfectly reflects the D9’s speed offsets due to temperature.

 

Most other aircraft regulate just for MAP, meaning that they get about as much more air as the offset due to higher drag requires. Hence the Spit/Mustang/etc fly about equally fast (TAS) in colder air (by overboosting the engine), but the D9 loses some km/h along with any other aircraft with a mass regulated engine. Conversly in summer, the D9 actively increases MAP pressure to compensate for lower air pressure. Full power Ladedruck varies according to temperature.

 

This also means the quoted P-40 in winter runs considerably in excess of the supposed and indicated 60 (or whatever) inches MAP, whereas in New Guinea, 60 inches MAP on the dial is actually consirerably less than that. So, if there‘s an error to be corrected, it is the P40 that should be an instant goner if you shove the throttle all the way forward on the deck in winter whereas in a hot humid summer day, a good engine might possibly even give you some time before going sour.

 

Concerning (P40) shaft power, In NewGuinea, you can discunt ~10% air from what you read on the MAP, in Moscow winter you can add ~15%.

 

Dials don‘t tell „the truth“, they just follow their mechanics. The MAP dial doesn‘t tell you the exact shaft power, but it is a guidance value for you to operate the engine as the manual tells you to.

[Roland_HUNter]

15 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Which points to one of the bigger issues in the sim - the over performance boost ‘certain’ aircraft get on winter maps is much more than it should be. This is made worse with the ability to further increase speed by maxing out engine boost, while lowering prop pitch - something that would cause detonation in real life, but is an exploit in the sim. 

How do you do that? I didn't know about this exploit.....

[the_emperor]

5 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

How do you do that? I didn't know about this exploit....

enjoy:

 

[Roland_HUNter]

48 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

enjoy:

 

Hmm, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but this is not working for P-40.

[the_emperor]

1 hour ago, Roland_HUNter said:

Hmm, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but this is not working for P-40.

 

its not working an all planes. its a side effect of the timer mechanic, and mostly depends an the engine regimes set in the manuals.

eg. spitfire can run 18lbs at 2600rpms for 15 minutes, but the P-51 can run 67inches for only ~ 5min no matter how much you reduce rpm as the next lower engine regime (combat) is  also for 3000rpm as opposed to the 2850 for the spitfire (though those birds do run essentially the same engines)

 

hence this proposal should be implemented asap: