Outdated Yak-1

[VikingFjord]

Ingame we have the the 109G2 (Gustav) it was a model that started its production in May 1942
if i am not all wrong our current ingame Yak-1 is produced in 1940 specs
and in October 1942 they started to build the Yak-1 afther a unofficial Yak-1(B) Spesification
The new standard where ( New bubble canopy with lowered rear fuselage, increased armor, ShKAS machine guns replaced with a single 12.7 mm (0.5 in) Berezin UBS, electrical and pneumatic firing of the weapons instead of the mechanical system, new control stick based on the Messerschmitt Bf 109 design, new gunsight, airtight fuselage, retractable tailwheel, improved engine cooling, Klimov M-105PF  engine with better low-altitude performance.)

guess my point is..why did we get the outdated version of Yak-1 to rival the 109?
 

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

Ingame we have the the 109G2 (Gustav) it was a model that started its production in May 1942

if i am not all wrong our current ingame Yak-1 is produced in 1940 specs

and in October 1942 they started to build the Yak-1 afther a unofficial Yak-1(B) Spesification

The new standard where ( New bubble canopy with lowered rear fuselage, increased armor, ShKAS machine guns replaced with a single 12.7 mm (0.5 in) Berezin UBS, electrical and pneumatic firing of the weapons instead of the mechanical system, new control stick based on the Messerschmitt Bf 109 design, new gunsight, airtight fuselage, retractable tailwheel, improved engine cooling, Klimov M-105PF  engine with better low-altitude performance.)

 

guess my point is..why did we get the outdated version of Yak-1 to rival the 109?

 

Maybe because it didn't fought over Stalingrad? Where was the 1B-Variant deployed when the Battle of Stalingrad arised?

[VikingFjord]

of course it was on the stalingrad all Yak-1 after October 1942 was produced to this (B) spesification it was the new standard for all Yak-1
they updated it becuse it was outdated

Edited July 9, 2014 by VikingFjord

[Finkeren]

Because the improved Yak-1 (the one we usually call Yak-1B) along with the first Yak-9 were still only in combat trials during the winter 1942/43. Both saw combat at Stalingrad but only in small numbers.

 

The late production Yak-1 that we have along with the Yak-7B were the standard Yakolev fighters at this point.

 

Arguably the LaGG-3 series 29 that we have is more obsolete. That could just as well be a series 35 standard.

[VikingFjord]

Thank you for the info Finkeren! i dont like the LaGG-3 that we got ingame
im sure some ppl manage to fight with it but i dont..

[Nage]

Ingame we have the the 109G2 (Gustav) it was a model that started its production in May 1942

if i am not all wrong our current ingame Yak-1 is produced in 1940 specs

 

Yak 1 from the game isnt the one from the first batch from 1940...its series 69 with better engine....

Edited July 9, 2014 by tikvic

[Matt]

The Yak-1 we have in BoS does have the 105PF engine btw.

[Finkeren]

The main difference between the Yak that we have in BoS and the 1B is the cut-down rear fuselage, redesigned semi-bubble canopy and different armament (1xUBS and slightly more ShVAK ammo vs 2xShKAS) in performance they're close to identical.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Finkeren

[VikingFjord]

i know it dont carry any weight coming from a WT Wiki but is it true?

"The Yak-1 is a Soviet single-engine fighter of the WWII era. It was the first combat aircraft designed by Alexander Yakovlev's construction bureau and was produced from 1940 to 1944, with a total of 8,700 aircraft built. The Yak-1B variant was a culmination of all 1942 efforts to improve the Yak-1. Work began at TsAGI, where research into improving the water and oil radiators took place between 24th May and 10th June 1942, and work to increase the top speed was conducted between 20th and 26th July 1942. Tactical characteristics of the Yak-1 were significantly improved as a result, leading to Yakovlev's request to the Minister of Aviation to mass-produce a test batch of 20 improved aircraft for combat testing at the front.

 

However, the improvements looked so good on paper that a test batch was skipped, and a Defence Committee Directive dated 11th August 1942 ordered a new and improved Yak-1 into mass production. Improved armament triggers and a cockpit with improved rearward visibility were welcomed by Soviet pilots and became standard on all contemporary Soviet fighter planes."

 

[bivalov]

mainly during winter BOS were used almost all series 42 of yak-1, or planes between 60 (ie before introducing of PF) and 110-111 (ie yak-1b with almost all aerodynamic changes, besides other above)... choice is adequate in fact, although, personally i prefer at least modernized yak-1 with high gargrot, which almost identical with s69, but have some changes, plus several REAL "modifications" like lightweight planes...

[VikingFjord]

they skipped the test version and Defence Committee Directive dated 11th August 1942 ordered a new and improved Yak-1 into mass production
so when was the buble canopy version on the field?
i know there is a picture of Stephan Anastasovich Mikoyan where he sits in a buble Canopy version (Yak-1B)
i also would want to learn more about this brave pilot

[Gambit21]

From a single player campaign perspective I don't mind things as they are.

From a multiplayer perspective I don't think it will hurt anything to add some later/improved Russian AC even if they

are only available on a different map (not Stalingrad)

 

Right now in multiplayer I don't feel right climbing into a 109.

[SR-F_Winger]

I find devs made wise decisions to go for historical accuracy. They modeled the engineproblems with the G2 that were apparent during early BOS and they chose the most common version of YAK-1 during this period. So i am all good.

Come later scenarios come later planes. This will not be the last scenario the the new IL2 lets us fly in. Of that I am certain!

Edited July 9, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[bivalov]

they skipped the test version and Defence Committee Directive dated 11th August 1942 ordered a new and improved Yak-1 into mass production

so when was the buble canopy version on the field?

there were 3 main changes - new canopy, new better armament and serious aerodynamical changes for better speed (weight still same, average ~2900 kg)...

 

first experimental works and single planes it's ~ spring-summer'42... "переходные серии" or planes with some changes, but mainly still with high gargrot and old canopy - well, it's typical thing for any production, you know, it's like a bit different bf 109 g-4, or messer at autumn-'42, and further in 42-43 - it's something around early autumn'42, further, according to official orders and planes + condition of aviaplants, workers starting to do more modernized yaks and first FULLY modernized planes it's somewhere in end'42-early'43 (although, some little shanges were introdused in winter-spring'43)...

 

it's by my memory and very shortly, and, in total, just wait next chapter and save up your money for new series...

[Gambit21]

I find devs made wise decisions to go for historical accuracy. They modeled the engineproblems with the G2 that were apparent during early BOS and they chose the most common version of YAK-1 during this period. So i am all good.

Come later scenarios come later planes. This will not be the last scenario the the new IL2 lets us fly in. Of that I am certain!

I agree, I'm all for historical accuracy. I would keep things to the letter of history of the Stalingrad map.

I'm just thinking of the MP aspect as well, and longevity of the sim.

[Finkeren]

Btw: there is nothing wrong with having either the Yak-1B or an early Yak-9 in BoS. Both were in combat trials at the time and both would fit a posible future Kuban or Kursk scenario.

[SR-F_Winger]

I agree, I'm all for historical accuracy. I would keep things to the letter of history of the Stalingrad map.

I'm just thinking of the MP aspect as well, and longevity of the sim.

I find the current YAK is quite a good match for the 109ers. I mostly fly german but when i am on my way alone and catch a six it takes quite some time to outclimb the russian fella in the YAK. But thats just IMHO and i surely can understand each sides always wants the best planes:)

Flying ROF for very long time I am used to fly the slower and worse performing planes (no intention to start a diuscussion on that since its quite a while ago since i flew ROF). So I am sort of happy we have a scenario in wich the german planes historically outperformed the russian planes. I think it wont last for too long anyways:)

[ShamrockOneFive]

Ingame we have the the 109G2 (Gustav) it was a model that started its production in May 1942

if i am not all wrong our current ingame Yak-1 is produced in 1940 specs

and in October 1942 they started to build the Yak-1 afther a unofficial Yak-1(B) Spesification

The new standard where ( New bubble canopy with lowered rear fuselage, increased armor, ShKAS machine guns replaced with a single 12.7 mm (0.5 in) Berezin UBS, electrical and pneumatic firing of the weapons instead of the mechanical system, new control stick based on the Messerschmitt Bf 109 design, new gunsight, airtight fuselage, retractable tailwheel, improved engine cooling, Klimov M-105PF  engine with better low-altitude performance.)

 

guess my point is..why did we get the outdated version of Yak-1 to rival the 109?

 

 

Actually we're in very good shape with the Yak-1 Series 69. The Yak-1 we have represents a 1942 build with some minor weight reduction as well as the much more powerful VK-105PF engine.

 

It's tough to find a solid resource on Yak performance series but have a look here:

 

http://www.wio.ru/tacftr/yak.htm

 

Note the difference in performance between the early Yak-1 series and how the Yak-1 we have is actually equal or better performing than the earliest Yak-1B.

Btw: there is nothing wrong with having either the Yak-1B or an early Yak-9 in BoS. Both were in combat trials at the time and both would fit a posible future Kuban or Kursk scenario.

Completely agree. The Yak-7B, Yak-1B and Yak-9 are all appropriate aircraft for this battle and time period.

[Finkeren]

Tbh I don't quite get why people think that the Yak-1B would be such an improvement over what we currently have.

 

Basically it should only really offer 2 advantages over the Series 69:

 

Slightly beefed up armament with shorter total firing time.

 

Improved field of vision on a plane that already has the best FOV in the sim.

[bivalov]

yak-1"b" of very different series, or planes at different stage of modernization, BMO were actively used during almost all winter period and even real yak-1b are absolutely correct for THIS game (next is only early autumn-summer)...

 

and, because yak-1b and early yak-9 very similar planes, rare, but interesting "plus" for ONE special yak-9...

 

Tbh I don't quite get why people think that the Yak-1B would be such an improvement over what we currently have.

 

Basically it should only really offer 2 advantages over the Series 69:

excuse me, looks like because you almost dont know real DETAILED history of development of yaks-1 (1942-1943)... or, at least, need to use correct names and storyline...

 

PS edited for better understanding...

Edited July 9, 2014 by bivalov

[ShamrockOneFive]

Tbh I don't quite get why people think that the Yak-1B would be such an improvement over what we currently have.

 

Basically it should only really offer 2 advantages over the Series 69:

 

Slightly beefed up armament with shorter total firing time.

 

Improved field of vision on a plane that already has the best FOV in the sim.

 

What it would give is the historical development of the series but with such a limited release as we're getting in Battle of Stalingrad I can understand why they didn't. Still, people associate the bubble canopy Yak-1B as being a significant development and over the long run it was further developed and used right through 1944. I suspect it and the Yak-9 will be saved up for future iterations.

 

yak-1"b" of very different series, or planes at different stage of modernization, BMO were actively used during almost all winter period and even real yak-1b are absolutely correct for THIS game (next is only early autumn-summer)...

 

and, because yak-1b and early yak-9 very similar planes, rare, but interesting "plus" for ONE special yak-9...

 

 

excuse me, looks like because you almost dont know real DETAILED history of development of yaks-1 (1942-1943)... or, at least, need to use correct names and storyline...

 

PS edited for better understanding...

 

Actually Finkeren is pretty much right on the money. The improvements between a late model Yak-1 and the early Yak-1B that fought at Stalingrad are the two advantages that he mentioned. And not much else. Over the long run the Yak-1B is significant and I'd love to see it here (and IMHO maybe it should have been featured as part of the initial release) but he's absolutely right. Even from a detailed historical perspective the raw performance differences between the two are negligible.

[Gambit21]

I find the current YAK is quite a good match for the 109ers. I mostly fly german but when i am on my way alone and catch a six it takes quite some time to outclimb the russian fella in the YAK. But thats just IMHO and i surely can understand each sides always wants the best planes:)

Flying ROF for very long time I am used to fly the slower and worse performing planes (no intention to start a diuscussion on that since its quite a while ago since i flew ROF). So I am sort of happy we have a scenario in wich the german planes historically outperformed the russian planes. I think it wont last for too long anyways:)

I hear ya.

Myself, I actually like being a slight underdog in the aircraft department - it's a more tense experience flying around trying not to get jumped.

Good fun.

[VikingFjord]

there were 3 main changes - new canopy, new better armament and serious aerodynamical changes for better speed (weight still same, average ~2900 kg)...

 

first experimental works and single planes it's ~ spring-summer'42... "переходные серии" or planes with some changes, but mainly still with high gargrot and old canopy - well, it's typical thing for any production, you know, it's like a bit different bf 109 g-4, or messer at autumn-'42, and further in 42-43 - it's something around early autumn'42, further, according to official orders and planes + condition of aviaplants, workers starting to do more modernized yaks and first FULLY modernized planes it's somewhere in end'42-early'43 (although, some little shanges were introdused in winter-spring'43)...

 

it's by my memory and very shortly, and, in total, just wait next chapter and save up your money for new series...

 

 

You sure know alot of this your a russian i guess?

its allways nice to learn of those who knows so thank you

 

im all for historical correctness and i embrace it

but i cant shake the feeling that the current ingame Yak is some what outpreformed by the 109's

i have tested the yak against them on speed,climb and turn and they keep up pretty well with the Yak

its true the Yak will turn better but i often find them behind me coming out of a turn

and i will see them closing in on my when trying to speed away

i will do better when i fly the 109 but there is something about that Yak i like very much

and thats comes from a guy flying german planes for many many many years and thats says something

but im sure as the game progress and we get new planes the match will be more even

 

Edited July 9, 2014 by VikingFjord

[bivalov]

Actually Finkeren is pretty much right on the money... but he's absolutely right.

Finkeren is right as any not-russian people's who read some information, of course, but i right much MORE... excuse me, but need to be "a bit" careful, when you try to teach russians, about that they read and understand in original modern sources (by my exprience, incl. here, it's real wrong mania of not-russian people's, but personally i NOT laught (maybe, a bit) or write as some here i UNDERSTAND that......)... in total, serial yak-1b - it's plane with low gargrot, new armament AND already some aerodynamical changes (+10 kph, it's good or not good for you? personally for me it's enough, because it's HALF of effect of 1050 mm hg), fully modernized yak-1b it's really "new plane", and it's ONLY yak-1b, not yak-1 with high gargrot or any other similar yaks... so, we really has one plane in DIFFERENT condition, and what i talking about from starting point, but not one plane with only 2 new things, as he wrote...

[ShamrockOneFive]

You sure know alot of this your a russian i guess?

its allways nice to learn of those who knows so thank you

 

im all for historical correctness and i embrace it

but i cant shake the feeling that the current ingame Yak is some what outpreformed by the 109's

i have tested the yak against them on speed,climb and turn and they keep up pretty well with the Yak

its true the Yak will turn better but i often find them behind me coming out of a turn

and i will see them closing in on my when trying to speed away

i will do better when i fly the 109 but there is something about that Yak i like very much

and thats comes from a guy flying german planes for many many many years and thats says something

but im sure as the game progress and we get new planes the match will be more even

 

It's not a perfect match ever in WWII (or in the history of air combat). There's always a leapfrogging effect as one side brings newer aircraft to the table and the other side responds in kind. Overall... many of the German aircraft have the advantage in the 1939 to 1942 period and after that their superiority erodes. I would say that the 109F-4 and G-2 are both better than the Yak-1, however, the Yak-1 we have is both historical and well suited to the challenge. It's not quite as fast but its handling is oh so sweet and the performance is close enough to give any 109 a run for its money - the key will be really knowing the Yak-1 inside and out and where and in what circumstances it is better than the 109 versions.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Finkeren is right as any not-russian people's who read some information, of course, but i right much MORE... excuse me, but need to be "a bit" careful, when you try to teach russians, about that they read and understand in original modern sources (by my exprience, incl. here, it's real wrong mania of not-russian people's, but personally i NOT laught (maybe, a bit) or write as some here i UNDERSTAND that......)... in total, serial yak-1b - it's plane with low gargrot, new armament AND already some aerodynamical changes (+10 kph, it's good or not good for you? personally for me it's enough, because it's HALF of effect of 1050 mm hg), fully modernized yak-1b it's really "new plane", and it's ONLY yak-1b, not yak-1 with high gargrot or any other similar yaks... so, we really has one plane in DIFFERENT condition, and what i talking about from starting point, but not one plane with only 2 new things, as he wrote...

I'm not exactly sure of your point here. Being Russian or not has nothing to do with it.

 

The Yak-1B is a development of the Yak-1. It has a bubble canopy, it has reduced weight, it has a better engine than the early series Yak-1s and it has a revised armament and it likely has a variety of more minute changes that were small scale, not documented or introduced gradually as is the case with most Russian production aircraft during WWII. It's not a new aircraft although it was certainly a significant development point that carried the original Yak-1 design through to 1944. I'd liken it to (for those familiar with the details) the changes introduced between the Spitfire Mark I/V/IX models and the Mark VIII (i.e. aircraft looks the similar but there were deeper changes).

[BeastyBaiter]

Both Bf-109's are clearly superior in my experience, but the Yak-1 we have is a close competitor. If the 109 makes even a single slip up, that's enough for the Yak driver to reverse the situation. As with all military tech, it's invention and response, followed by response to the response. It's an endless cycle. Things are never absolutely even. I think it is also important to keep in mind the overall picture, there are other planes in game or coming soon. How will things work out with the La-5 + Yak-1 vs Bf-109 + Fw-190? That changes the dynamic. Adding in the He-111 and proper ground targets will also change how things play.

 

Imagine this scenario: you are in a MP mission where bombing all the hangers on an airfield disables it for 20 minutes. You have 4x Bf-109G2's to defend with. Yes, your planes are absolutely superior, but actually getting in there and shooting down the IL-2's before your base is obliterated without going full kamakazi on them is not such an easy task. If you do suicide attack them, you're stuck with at least 2 enemy fighters vulching the crap out of you if you try to respawn there. If you try to do it properly and preserve your planes, you will likely be unable to get to the IL-2's before they've completed their mission and are on their way home. Now you're stuck at some rear airbase, reducing your teams possible sortie rate and weakening defense of other objectives (such as a fighter factory objective, that would hurt if hit).

 

It's this kind of mission design that makes very small performance advantages meaningless. The Yak can already compete as is even if at a slight disadvantage. But when you look at the big picture, that climb rate advantage isn't much more than a get out of jail free card. It doesn't help you actually win a battle outside of a pure fighter vs fighter engagement. At the moment, that is all we have. But that will change with the FMB and more servers. Just take a look at what RoF has on the new wings servers. They have recon (unlocks a better plane type typically), aircraft factories (removes a plane type if destroyed), ground forces, ground supply systems (trains, tank factories and such) and even artillery spotting objectives. Fly a German plane there that isn't a Fokker D.VIIF and your plane is hopelessly outclassed on a 1v1 basis. But it just doesn't matter even from a kill to death ratio standpoint.

Edited July 10, 2014 by =LD=King_Hrothgar

[VikingFjord]

It's not a perfect match ever in WWII (or in the history of air combat). There's always a leapfrogging effect as one side brings newer aircraft to the table and the other side responds in kind. Overall... many of the German aircraft have the advantage in the 1939 to 1942 period and after that their superiority erodes. I would say that the 109F-4 and G-2 are both better than the Yak-1, however, the Yak-1 we have is both historical and well suited to the challenge. It's not quite as fast but its handling is oh so sweet and the performance is close enough to give any 109 a run for its money - the key will be really knowing the Yak-1 inside and out and where and in what circumstances it is better than the 109 versions.

 

i am very happy they gone for historical accuracy and the worst thing in a flight sim is when they balance it as it was a Fps game of some sort

and if im not totaly mistaken F-4 and G-2 was some of the reasons why Yak-1 was upgraded during the war

there is something about the Yak-1 i guess its the challange and the fact it has charm and soul

i have found a way to fight with it and it does demand experiance to do so

i think the LA-5 will bring some fair ground to the table even the Fw190 is coming too

 

just imagine if Yak-3,Yak-9 and La-7 enters the fight that would be awsome

 

[Shitigi]

I think many make bad words for makers who are good at this game

 

remember this game is 51 complete

 

51

 

remember!!!!!

 

and devs get money from russia ministry of culture (i think this write western term)

 

im sure putins friends give them good documents that are very accurate. dont get mad if u cant see these documents cuz many are TOP SECRET .... war thunder makers also have top secret russia information from ww2 just so you all no. hope my friends in west repesct good info like this ))))

[Finkeren]

Finkeren is right as any not-russian people's who read some information, of course, but i right much MORE... excuse me, but need to be "a bit" careful, when you try to teach russians, about that they read and understand in original modern sources.

The boasting aside, you are right: I have not read half on the subject of Soviet aviation that you have.

I was not trying to teach you anything specifically, but rather trying to correct the misunderstanding that some (presumably western) people have, that the so-called Yak-1B represented a huge improvement in performance over the late production Yak-1s.

 

I actually think a lot of that misconception stems from the original IL2 sim, where there was a huge difference between the Yak-1 (1941 production model) and the Yak-1B.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Finkeren

[Shitigi]

I hope see yak with guns over engiens

 

this was see in old pictures

[Finkeren]

I hope see yak with guns over engiens

 

this was see in old pictures

Can you clarify what you mean by "guns over engines"?

 

The current Yak-1 in BoS has 2 ShKAS LMGs on the cowling.

 

Later designs had at first 1 then 2 UBS HMGs in addition to their engine mounted ShVAKs.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 +10km/h in speed or maybe 1-2sec reduction in turning speed does not make a plane the world beater, can be lost so easily with bad trimming during flight, dirty plane, bad paint job or misaligned access doors, poor piloting etc. So again we talk about the "perfect" TsAGI planes with EVERYTHING polished and handmade almost. Not an actual production model used at the frontline. And there was the wording "on paper it looked so good". Indeed. On paper everything looks good, but reality is a different beast. Same applies to ANY nation's plane that has been built, not just Russian so you can drop the anti-Sowjet agenda card just now. 

 

 Then this funding from whatever office and secret data by Vladolf Putler & Friends?! If this would be the case(highly doubt it, mixed with IM development?) every player could now just throw away the strive for historical accuracy and non-bias out of the window and go play WT for that matter. 51% argument is moot as well, if you really test stuff in game you can spot things over time. Quite different from going to MP, pick 15% fuel and the "best" plane and yank it. Tells you absolutely nothing about the plane, just same old air quake with mindset "gimme the best plane".

 

 In this case maybe devs really should clarify their intentions, plans and mind set on making this game, to altogether cut rumours and assumptions on anything. Over and out with venting.

[FuriousMeow]

Venting because hands down the 109 outclasses every Russian fighter quite handily in every way it historically did on BoS? You German aircraft only bunch sure are a bizarre group. Even when you own the skies you get all uptight and angry because you don't own every square centimeter of it.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

  I did not mention Bf109 or being exclusive German plane pilot. I fly them all. You did pull the good olde Luftwaffle card Learn to read, really. As a native english speaker should not even have problems with that I said EVERY nation, not only Russia or Germany. People nitpick on +10km/h or a minimal turn rate increase and forget reality in the process. Does not take an engineer to realize that "on paper" is quite different from reality. And this applies to ALL, not just one nation. Clear enough? 

[LukeFF]

 

 

and devs get money from russia ministry of culture (i think this write western term)   im sure putins friends give them good documents that are very accurate. dont get mad if u cant see these documents cuz many are TOP SECRET .... war thunder makers also have top secret russia information from ww2 just so you all no. hope my friends in west repesct good info like this ))))

 

Troll? I think so, but it's late and I'm not sure. 

[Brano]

http://make-everything-ok.com/

 

[Gambit21]

S!

 

 +10km/h in speed or maybe 1-2sec reduction in turning speed does not make a plane the world beater, can be lost so easily with bad trimming during flight, dirty plane, bad paint job or misaligned access doors, poor piloting etc. So again we talk about the "perfect" TsAGI planes with EVERYTHING polished and handmade almost. Not an actual production model used at the frontline. And there was the wording "on paper it looked so good". Indeed. On paper everything looks good, but reality is a different beast. Same applies to ANY nation's plane that has been built, not just Russian so you can drop the anti-Sowjet agenda card just now. 

 

 Then this funding from whatever office and secret data by Vladolf Putler & Friends?! If this would be the case(highly doubt it, mixed with IM development?) every player could now just throw away the strive for historical accuracy and non-bias out of the window and go play WT for that matter. 51% argument is moot as well, if you really test stuff in game you can spot things over time. Quite different from going to MP, pick 15% fuel and the "best" plane and yank it. Tells you absolutely nothing about the plane, just same old air quake with mindset "gimme the best plane".

 

 In this case maybe devs really should clarify their intentions, plans and mind set on making this game, to altogether cut rumours and assumptions on anything. Over and out with venting.

What?

[FuriousMeow]

S!

 

  I did not mention Bf109 or being exclusive German plane pilot. I fly them all. You did pull the good olde Luftwaffle card Learn to read, really. As a native english speaker should not even have problems with that I said EVERY nation, not only Russia or Germany. People nitpick on +10km/h or a minimal turn rate increase and forget reality in the process. Does not take an engineer to realize that "on paper" is quite different from reality. And this applies to ALL, not just one nation. Clear enough? 

 

Oh, I read it - but it doesn't apply since the rant/vent is only in response to a Russian mention and TsAGI is directly mentioned plus you make a point to complain solely about Russians and then throw in the after thought of "other nations" just to cover your self. The vent/rant is clear, and my response to it was accurate. I didn't pull any LuftWaffle card here. I have in other places, because yes - there is a lot of that from LW only players going on right now.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Troll? I think so, but it's late and I'm not sure. 

Secret Documents™, dude. It's legit.