Oh My Friedrich Gustav... ! (Allies "main" tries Bf.109 for first time)

[Asgar]

I fly pretty much anything with a bit more focus on the German side. however i've been flying a lot of P-51 lately

[oc2209]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:21 AM, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

One of the really interesting things for me about the 109, and which I think makes it pretty unique within the planeset, is the relatively good turning capability. Many of the other boom and zoomers really shouldn't be turned at all, and the 109 probably not either, but if/when you do get into a turn fight, you've actually got some surprisingly good performance and relatively easy handling.

 

I've mainly been flying the F4 as my intro, as it seems like a decent place to start, and I've been very impressed by how generous and forgiving the low speed handling is. I still routinely get myself killed on Berloga as I learn the ins and outs of the plane (read: I try to turnfight instead of BnZ, a bad habit I've always had since back to my SPAD days in RoF ? ), but I do find it a very welcoming experience overall - much less punishing of piloting errors than many of the other planes.

 

The 109, I believe, is good at everything (except roll rate), and great at nothing (except climb performance).

 

In other words, it's a 'good enough' turner, in a pinch. But there are, of course, better turners. It's a good diver, but there are better divers. This jack-of-all-trades flexibility was the 109's strength up until about 1944, at which point there were simply too many Allied planes that did most of what the 109 did, a little better.

 

Personally, I like to turn the 109 endlessly versus AI. But I know that it doesn't work nearly as well against humans. The AI, for example, doesn't seem to know that a Yak-9 with a half fuel load should be able to out-turn a 109F-4 with a half fuel load. I simply should not be able to catch a hard-turning Yak-9 in a 109, yet, I can. The AI doesn't make it easy, but flown to their respective limits, it shouldn't be possible at all.

 

Now, having said that, there are British statements admitting to (novice) pilots' reluctance to turn the Spitfire as hard as it could turn. Hence the mistaken belief that some Luftwaffe pilots had: that the 109 could turn inside a Spitfire. A weakly-flown Spitfire, yes.

 

Likewise, I'm sure many late-war, poorly-trained 109 pilots were equally afraid to turn their (heavier, more stall-happy G and K versions) planes hard enough to be a more difficult target for prowling Mustangs.

 

The 109F-4 is, arguably, the best version of them all. While the E series has a better, more responsive roll (squared wing tips), and is a good turner, the F-4 is an overall better package mainly because of its greater speed. The engine-mounted cannon is also, arguably, superior to the E's wing cannons. The F-4 represents the last time that weight increases to the basic 109 design don't also result in a marked decrease in handling quality.

 

For every iteration beyond the F-4, the 109 loses agility by small degrees. This loss is partially mitigated by the boosted engine in the G-6 Late. I consider it to be the last 'sweet spot' in the later series, before the extra weight for extra speed conundrum becomes ever more noticeable.

 

For the record, I think the Yak-9 (and, I must assume, the Yak-3) is every bit as forgiving in handling, and more enjoyable to fly, than the 109; but the drawbacks to the Yak are engine management and low ammo capacity. I consider the Yak's handling even more viceless than the Spitfire's, as that can, with sloppy control, spin rather viciously.

[Freycinet]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

 

Hence the mistaken belief that some Luftwaffe pilots had: that the 109 could turn inside a Spitfire. A weakly-flown Spitfire, yes.

 

Th eLuftwaffe pilots who came back told of Spitfires that couldn't turn with them. The Luftwaffe pilots who encountered Spitfires that out-turned them didn't come back to tell the tale.

 

It's the classic tale. A study was made during WWII to see which typical damage was survivable and which wasn't. The conclusion at the end was that the damage on returning planes should be disregarded. The parts of the planes that needed strengthening were the parts never showing up as damaged on returning planes. Makes sense, really...   

[Robli]

10 hours ago, Freycinet said:

The parts of the planes that needed strengthening were the parts never showing up as damaged on returning planes.

 

The story is probably not true for real, but this reminded me of an anecdote how differently Willy Messerschmitt and Kurt Tank approached this issue. According to that, when Kurt Tank examined shot-down Fw-190's, he looked for parts and systems that were damaged to make these tougher. When Messerschmitt studied Bf-109 wrecks, ne noted the parts and systems that had survived and considered how to make these lighter to save cost/weight etc.

 

Speaking about the turning ability of Spitfires in this game, I feel that I never have to worry about the plane's ability to turn, but rather be cautious not to black out during too tight turns.

[Eisenfaustus]

22 hours ago, Robli said:

Speaking about the turning ability of Spitfires in this game, I feel that I never have to worry about the plane's ability to turn, but rather be cautious not to black out during too tight turns.

Very true - since the g-force update I also look at pilot anecdotes differently. I guess often enough one pilot outturned the other rather than one plane the other. 

[Sheriff88]

On 12/8/2021 at 12:46 AM, Eisenfaustus said:

You’re right but it’s hard not to participate in such discussions

 

trying to get back to topic: The 109 is my guilty pleasure. Spits, tempests and yaks encourage bad habits as well as they also allow to get away with turn and burn although they also benefit from energy fighting. Yet the 109 adds super smooth stall and next to no engine management to the mix (except for the Emil) - so it always is a very joyful ride. Although I try to fly more 190 and mustang to enforce better tactics from myself.

 

Maybe I should go the next step and concentrate on 110 and p38 next…

 

La5 and p47 - although I appreciate these machines technically- I just don’t enjoy to fly, not sure why. 

The P-38 is becoming one of my favorites. ( Still favor 109 E,G4 and K , Spit IX and Hurricane). When it first became available it obviously was not understood as a capable adversary. On dogfight servers I noticed  many people underestimating it’s turn capability. Then a few were intimidated by this monster and breaking off and bugging out after some unsuccessful passes. One of my best nights on Beloga server was flying TheRata on East Side and P-38 on West side. Two extremes for sure!

[FlyinCoffin]

Me only fly bf109

Edited December 12, 2021 by FlyinCoffin