B-25 Mitchell Idea

[Flyboy-Pumpzy]

Hey everyone! Do you think that they should add the B25 as a flyable aircraft? I think it would be a good collector plane because it played a big role in many parts of WWII! Also because it is just a fun plane to fly!

[Feathered_IV]

Aw man!   If only you’d posted this idea a bit sooner.  
Just last week, the producer of the game drove halfway across America to visit an air museum and it has a B-25 there as well.   If only we’d known we could have got him to take a closer look and he might have got some useful reference pics

[AndyJWest]

Flyboy-Pumpzy, this forum has a search facility. Use it.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Honestly I'd rather see a B-17, but for some reason the devs don't want to do that one.

[Feathered_IV]

Oh don’t give me the B-17

(I think some of you know what I mean)

Our maps are too small

And the ceiling ain’t tall

And the time it would take is obscene 

[Trooper117]

Here we go round the mulberry bush yet again!

[ShamrockOneFive]

Bombers are challenging to do, 1CGS is looking into it actively, and you can read all about it in the last update on Jason's Briefing Room.

 

I also wrote my commentary on it here and feel free to check back in with all of the latest news around IL-2 and other sims.

 

https://stormbirds.blog/2021/11/07/il-2s-lead-developer-documents-some-first-hand-research-on-a-b-25/

[Feathered_IV]

[Diggun]

7 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

Well, us allied players need a jet bomber, for balance...

[RyanR]

The B-25 is not great in the sim. In BoBP, it's in 8 or 9 ship formations that get lunched easily by 190's or by 109 with 30mm and 20mm cannon. The A-20 struggles similarly in BoK.

 

I suspect a *lot* of development needs done under the hood for "bombers". You'd need almost a completely new sim (radio commands, AI functionality, etc) for user-controlled allied bombers to really work. German bombers work well in the earlier war stuff since the opposition has less firepower, and the interceptors are outclassed by the escort. If the AI stumbles a bit coming off target (it's like herding cats), it's usually not disastrous. In contrast, Pe-2 and A-20 missions can go south real quick in the same situation.

 

-Ryan

[Rjel]

10 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Flyboy-Pumpzy, this forum has a search facility. Use it.

Or you could ask MasserME262….

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

The fact that he also visited a B-52... yes, I thought of this as well ?

[dannytherat]

On 11/15/2021 at 3:34 PM, RyanR said:

The B-25 is not great in the sim. In BoBP, it's in 8 or 9 ship formations that get lunched easily by 190's or by 109 with 30mm and 20mm cannon. The A-20 struggles similarly in BoK.

I'm not sure that the implementation of B-25s in BoBp is bad. The use of relatively small forces of them seems fairly historical to me.

 

As I said in the "What everyone wants" thread, my great-uncle was navigator on Mitchells in 98sqn RAF  during 1943 and 1944.

 

I did some research into the operation during which he was shot down (and subsequently rescued by an RAF Rescue Launch) on 21st September 1943. This was a "Ramrod" operation by 98 and 180 squadrons, which put up 6 Mitchells each, with a large fighter escort.

 

As it was, the force lost two Mitchells. Had they been without the escort it seems likely an awful lot more would have been hacked down by the 190s

 

I wouldn't claim that this conclusively proves that medium

bombers were always used in small numbers, but the RAF's Mitchells were operated by squadrons from the Second Tactical Air Force and the American A-20s and B-26s were operated by the 9th Air Force - ie both in tactical bombing raids against bridges, marshalling yards, airfields etc, usually at medium altitudes, rather than the high-altitude strategic bombing by the "Mighty 8th". They were also in pretty big trouble if caught without their fighter escort.

 

With that in mind I think the sim provides a reasonable representation of the historical situation. Expecting the medium bombers to provide a B-17-type experience is unrealistic, as the aircraft and their mode of operation was too dissimilar to the heavy bombers.

Edited November 18, 2021 by dannytherat
Edited to reflect fact that B-25s were not operated by the 9th Air Force

[LukeFF]

16 minutes ago, dannytherat said:

the RAF's Mitchells were operated by squadrons from the Second Tactical Air Force and the American B-25s and B-26s were operated by the 9th Air Force

 

B-25s were not flown by Ninth Air Force - only A-20s and B-26s (and A-26s later on). B-25 usage by the USAAF in Europe only occurred in the Mediterranean. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by LukeFF

[40plus]

4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

HAHAHA, you're in good form in this thread Feathered, well done.

[Bremspropeller]

I think the OP deserves a medal for bringing it up.

[Lusekofte]

Personally I given up on bombers online. I wait for VR in Cod and take that ich there.

But I do fly them offline and some coop.

New aqmb. Is simply genius for flying a B 25 in. And you are right. It is a good idea having a B 25 or 26 as collector plane.

But we have mention it before 500 and one times 

[dannytherat]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

B-25s were not flown by Ninth Air Force - only A-20s and B-26s (and A-26s later on). B-25 usage by the USAAF in Europe only occurred in the Mediterranean. 

I stand corrected! ?

[Dennis_Nedry]

16 hours ago, [CPT]milopugdog said:

Honestly I'd rather see a B-17, but for some reason the devs don't want to do that one.

Maybe one of the new cloud types will be “bomber stream preset 1”.  The luftwaffe will never reach them.  Very realistic ?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Dennis_Nedry

[RyanR]

22 hours ago, dannytherat said:

I'm not sure that the implementation of B-25s in BoBp is bad. The use of relatively small forces of them seems fairly historical to me.

 

As I said in the "What everyone wants" thread, my great-uncle was navigator on Mitchells in 98sqn RAF  during 1943 and 1944.

 

I did some research into the operation during which he was shot down (and subsequently rescued by an RAF Rescue Launch) on 21st September 1943. This was a "Ramrod" operation by 98 and 180 squadrons, which put up 9 Mitchells each, with a large fighter escort.

 

As it was, the force lost two Mitchells. Had they been without the escort it seems likely an awful lot more would have been hacked down by the 190s

 

I wouldn't claim that this conclusively proves that medium

bombers were always used in small numbers, but the RAF's Mitchells were operated by squadrons from the Second Tactical Air Force and the American A-20s and B-26s were operated by the 9th Air Force - ie both in tactical bombing raids against bridges, marshalling yards, airfields etc, usually at medium altitudes, rather than the high-altitude strategic bombing by the "Mighty 8th". They were also in pretty big trouble if caught without their fighter escort.

 

With that in mind I think the sim provides a reasonable representation of the historical situation. Expecting the medium bombers to provide a B-17-type experience is unrealistic, as the aircraft and their mode of operation was too dissimilar to the heavy bombers.

 

Thanks for the post! Medium bombers are a big gap in my knowledge.

 

Were on the same page for sure. I like the way the sim utilizes bombers for escort and intercept missions, as the AI bombers gets stacked into a better defensive formation. They also seem to be really good at the egress when the player is not involved.

 

When the player is flying a bomber, especially lead, it becomes a totally different scenario. The underlying architecture of the sim is really fighter driven. This is probably why the effort was put into the Ar-234. The Ar-234 can be a better Ar-234 than a flyable B-25 could be a B-25.

 

-Ryan

[9./JG52Gruber]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, LukeFF said:

 

B-25s were not flown by Ninth Air Force - only A-20s and B-26s (and A-26s later on). B-25 usage by the USAAF in Europe only occurred in the Mediterranean. 

So if there were a B-25 collector plane would it be left out of the Normandy & Rhineland campaigns?

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, 9./JG52Gruber said:

So if there were a B-25 collector plane would it be left out of the Normandy & Rhineland campaigns?

No, because the RAF did use the B25 in theatre. 

[jollyjack]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:33 AM, [CPT]milopugdog said:

Honestly I'd rather see a B-17, but for some reason the devs don't want to do that one.

 

or this one?

 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

 

or this one?

 

I'll do you one better, what about this bad boy? They produced 3 of these! Read it and weep; three whole planes!

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

Better than that: What about the B-25 Mitchell medium bomber???

[jeanba]

38 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Better than that: What about the B-25 Mitchell medium bomber???

STOOOOP !

This is completly stupid !!!!

And if it has 2 engines, I ask for a refund