P-51 in Campaign

[Iceni_Queen]

Was flying the P-51D last night in a campaign. And thought, No way is this right. At best. I hit speeds at only slightly about 300 MPH. Most of the time it was just above 200mph. I thought the P-47 was bad, but the mustang? That thing should be clipping, considering I can get the Russian plans to fly at 250+ all the time.

The P-51 was stalling at just above 200mph. I could pull out, but man, what a dog

[AndyJWest]

300 MPH IAS or TAS?

[Iceni_Queen]

What the speed shows when I fly level over Europe and in combat

[Raven109]

The speed you see on your dashboard is the speed of the aircraft in relation to the air around it, to put it simply - it's called Indicated Air Speed. The speed in relation to the ground is called TAS - True Air Speed. The higher you fly the bigger the difference between TAS and IAS, since up-high the air density is lower. So, you might see a IAS of 200mph as shown by your speed gauge, but in reality your speed relative to the ground could be around 250mph, depending on what altitude you are at. The explanation is simplified.

 

Now, regarding the P-51 stalling at 200mph, I assume you're referring to an accelerated stall, i.e. a stall when you're pulling on the stick at higher speeds. Don't yank the stick too much in the P-51, or set your joystick curves so you can have more control on the elevator.

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 hours ago, Iceni_Queen said:

Was flying the P-51D last night in a campaign. And thought, No way is this right. At best. I hit speeds at only slightly about 300 MPH. Most of the time it was just above 200mph. I thought the P-47 was bad, but the mustang? That thing should be clipping, considering I can get the Russian plans to fly at 250+ all the time.

The P-51 was stalling at just above 200mph. I could pull out, but man, what a dog

 

As the others have pointed out. Indicated Air Speed (IAS) is not the same as True Air Speed (TAS). You need to provide indicated speed and your altitude to be able to then do a calculation to find out what the true air speed is.

[PatrickAWlson]

Others have commented on IAS vs. TAS and @Raven109 mentioned accelerated stalls.  FW 190 is another one that will spin on you in a heartbeat if you pull too hard.  Both planes are very fast and have very good high speed handling.  Neither is very happy at lower speeds.  

 

Stay fast.

 

How?

Stay fast by not making extended horizontal turns.

 

How do I follow an enemy?

Do not follow in the horizontal.  Anticipate where he is going.  Instead of extended horizontal turns use vertical maneuvers to change direction.  I am a big fan of yo-yos.

 

How do I shoot something down if I am not following?

When tracking a better turning enemy make one turn at high speed - only turning enough to get guns on target.  Take your shot and then straighten out to maintain speed.  If he gets away do not follow in the horizontal.  Your next maneuver should either cause you to gain speed or altitude.

 

 

[Knarley-Bob]

She is comparing the speed of two aircraft. Does one show in TAS and the other IAS? I doubt it. Oh sorry, it's a U.S. plane. On my HUD it calls out MPH. So is that ground speed? Or what?

Edited November 12, 2021 by Knarley-Bob

[Raven109]

I thought that OP was comparing accelerated stalls between Russian fighters and the P-51. The IAS/TAS explanation is there just to make sure we're on the same page on speeds.

 

Now, the question is, do Russian fighters have the same elevator authority at higher speeds as the P-51 has?

[ShamrockOneFive]

16 hours ago, Raven109 said:

I thought that OP was comparing accelerated stalls between Russian fighters and the P-51. The IAS/TAS explanation is there just to make sure we're on the same page on speeds.

 

Now, the question is, do Russian fighters have the same elevator authority at higher speeds as the P-51 has?

They seemed to be focused on speed quite a bit... but not sure. Maybe.

 

You're right that the P-51 has far superior elevator authority at speed than the Yak or La series.

[BlitzPig_EL]

At what I would call a "medium" altitude, 12,000 to 15,000ft., owing to the type of combat we see in the sim, the P51, running around 2500 rpm or even less will loaf along at 250mph IAS, and yawn while doing it.  If you put the nose down a bit speeds of 300+ mph IAS happen quite quickly, and if you go to combat power and hold the nose down it easily can exceed 450mph IAS with no drama. I have frequently seen 475mph IAS in the dive.

 

The Mustang is a very fast aircraft, but you must fly smoothly, which is it's own reward.  You cannot yank it around the sky like a Yak 1b, but if flown to it's strengths, well, speed is life.

[RyanR]

Running at high AoA's is definitely not the Mustang's virtue. I found myself making the same mistakes recently, wondering why I was having a hard time getting 200mph out of it. Then the vicious cycle can happen in combat: You get slow, a bandit finds you, and then you have to do even more violent maneuvers. Rinse and repeat until you're down on the deck with nowhere to go. 

 

Coming back to the P-51 with a different mindset, and it's a totally different experience.

 

The British planes in Bodenplatte can cause one to develop bad habits. Probably more so since the cumulative G-limit effects have been relaxed.

 

-Ryan

[Phil_Ciborowski]

On 11/12/2021 at 3:39 PM, Raven109 said:

Now, regarding the P-51 stalling at 200mph, I assume you're referring to an accelerated stall, i.e. a stall when you're pulling on the stick at higher speeds. Don't yank the stick too much in the P-51, or set your joystick curves so you can have more control on the elevator.

This! I must admit I was very frustrated at first when first starting out with the P-51. To the point of blaming the game, the joystick, and everything else - except the real issue.  I have spent at least the last 4 or 5 days doing quick missions, and forcing myself to get out of the bad "yank and bank" habits just so I can get better with the Mustang...  I tried dozens of curves for my joystick, nothing felt right. Now I have something close, but still need a lot of fine tuning, and more practice. All along it wasnt the plane, or game. It was my lack of experience with it, and poor joystick setup.

[Props]

Yeah she's a handful and a light, steady touch is required. Something that I found helped a lot was limiting your fuel load to 75% or less (QM's go for about 65%), this will empty the fuselage tank behind the cockpit and change the AC center of gravity so it will handle much better and be less prone to stalls and those pesky snap spins. This was true of the P-51 in real life and I noticed it ingame as well. If your doing really long escorts 75% will still be plenty of fuel and you'll burn through the fuselage tank in plenty of time before combat ensues. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I rarely take more than just above 50% fuel in the Mustang.  No reason to on the majority of maps in the sim.  Remember that the early Mustang without the rear fuselage "long range" tank still has more range than any axis or RAF single seater, and that 50% fuel load equates to a full load without the rear tank.

[Rjel]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I rarely take more than just above 50% fuel in the Mustang.  No reason to on the majority of maps in the sim.  Remember that the early Mustang without the rear fuselage "long range" tank still has more range than any axis or RAF single seater, and that 50% fuel load equates to a full load without the rear tank.

I’ve grown to this train of though also. For a time I looked at a less than full fuel load as a cheat. But, I’ve come to realize that by the time my Mustang is flying deep into the BoBP map I would have flown 200 to 300 mile so it does seem reasonable to start out   With less than a full load. At 60% full

and above the Mustang is unruly. Still fun to fly but not agile. 
 

As to speed, I pay little attention to it any more. Down low in the weeds is the only place I get a true sense of how fast I’m going. It has helped that the USAAF planes forced me to learn engine, mixture and prop control. It’s made the experience much more enjoyable. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rjel
Posting from my phone does not work well for me.

[Eclipse4349]

On 11/19/2021 at 12:01 PM, Phil_Ciborowski said:

This! I must admit I was very frustrated at first when first starting out with the P-51. To the point of blaming the game, the joystick, and everything else - except the real issue.  I have spent at least the last 4 or 5 days doing quick missions, and forcing myself to get out of the bad "yank and bank" habits just so I can get better with the Mustang...  I tried dozens of curves for my joystick, nothing felt right. Now I have something close, but still need a lot of fine tuning, and more practice. All along it wasnt the plane, or game. It was my lack of experience with it, and poor joystick setup.

I can still remember pretty vividly when the concepts of energy and energy exchanges, turning circles, pursuit curves, and the tactical egg (the vertical and how to use it effectively) all suddenly "clicked" for me. I thought I had understood them because I knew in concept what they were, but in that moment I realized I had known what they were but hadn't understood how to apply the knowledge and fit the pieces together into a bigger picture.

 

Once it all clicked one of the immediate effects was the "pull more to turn tighter" tendency evaporated.  More often than not, there are much better ways to solve whatever the current range, angles, and closure situation is. When these things finally clicked it was like I had blinders removed. Aerial combat changed dramatically, and so did my success rate! 

[Yakdriver]

P-40E in the Year of Oleg maddox 2003.

[Guster]

20 hours ago, JG51_Eclipse4349 said:

I can still remember pretty vividly when the concepts of energy and energy exchanges, turning circles, pursuit curves, and the tactical egg (the vertical and how to use it effectively) all suddenly "clicked" for me. I thought I had understood them because I knew in concept what they were, but in that moment I realized I had known what they were but hadn't understood how to apply the knowledge and fit the pieces together into a bigger picture.

 

Once it all clicked one of the immediate effects was the "pull more to turn tighter" tendency evaporated.  More often than not, there are much better ways to solve whatever the current range, angles, and closure situation is. When these things finally clicked it was like I had blinders removed. Aerial combat changed dramatically, and so did my success rate! 

 

I can relate to this. One thing is the theory, another is its application. Once you 'get it' and figure out how to be smooth it sort of comes intuitively, and now I often find myself going very fast, and sometimes even too fast relative to my opponents.

 

The Mustang is the only plane where I feel safe. That said I only play offline, and I can imagine I'd be in trouble against real human opponents who apply the same approach in their 109s and 190s, and more than likely have more talent and skill than me.

[Phil_Ciborowski]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:09 AM, Guster said:

 

I can relate to this. One thing is the theory, another is its application. Once you 'get it' and figure out how to be smooth it sort of comes intuitively, and now I often find myself going very fast, and sometimes even too fast relative to my opponents.

 

The Mustang is the only plane where I feel safe. That said I only play offline, and I can imagine I'd be in trouble against real human opponents who apply the same approach in their 109s and 190s, and more than likely have more talent and skill than me.

same here - I would love to get to the point of jumping online, but the thought of being shredded endlessly puts a damper on that.  I will say that in the past week I have  made it a point to do a quick mission here or there in the mustang.. I have been able to improve to the point where I can take out at least 3 planes before ammo is gone - still have lots to relearn and retrain myself on before I feel comfortable.  But i am having fun again!

 

[Eclipse4349]

1 hour ago, Phil_Ciborowski said:

same here - I would love to get to the point of jumping online, but the thought of being shredded endlessly puts a damper on that.  I will say that in the past week I have  made it a point to do a quick mission here or there in the mustang.. I have been able to improve to the point where I can take out at least 3 planes before ammo is gone - still have lots to relearn and retrain myself on before I feel comfortable.  But i am having fun again!

 

I would say that once you can perform well in a career (takeoff and landing, navigating, flying in formation with the AI, and of course performing somewhat in combat), you are quite ready to perform well online. You could likely perform just fine before that point, especially if you are not alone. You will probably get shredded much more often if you're out there alone! 

To that end, I strongly suggest that you hop on whatever comms the server promotes and that you communicate.  Find a wingman or whole group to wing up with.  There are also a number of Discord groups for different server communities, squadrons, and other groups. The server and open community groups even have a "looking for wingman" section (all the ones I'm a member of, anyway). The community is very welcoming, in my experience.

 

Good luck out there

[Guster]

I used to fly online, almost exclusively, back in the Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters days. Loved the 190s back then before I switched to the P-38 and then the Mustang. A pair of well-coordinated Lightnings were nearly unbeatable for the Zeros, not that my wingie and I scored massive amounts of kills, but I don't remember any of us ever got shot down by a Zeke. Late war German fighters were a different game for sure.

 

On the topic of BoB, after the Great Battle series there's just no way I'm going back to the Cliffs of Dover platform, even after the Blitz overhaul. Same with RoF though I still absolutely adore the interface of the latter. These games just look and feel old to me now, and I can live with setting up faux and anachronistic BoB scenarios when BoN arrives using just the Hurri and the E-7 with the odd 110 thrown in for spicing things up.

 

I'd really love a bit of desert though, really just a Lapino-sized map with a couple of airfields and a whole lot of nothing to fight over.