Defense of the Reich

[Feldgrun]

I'd love to see a new series: Defense of the Reich.

 

It would initially only require the addition of one new AI aircraft: B-17. Later we could get AI B-24s, and a host of 4-engine British bombers, where users could fly variants of the Bf/Me-110 as night fighters. In a 1943 Luftwaffe-only mission, earlier versions of the unescorted B-17s could create the Schweinfurt raid that was described as "Black Thursday." For 1944-45 missions, players could either escort the heavy bombers into Germany, or intercept from Luftwaffe bases in France or Germany. I'd also like to see if the seemingly worthless Werfer-Granate anti-bomber rockets are effective against a B-17 formation.

 

I know that adding B-17s has been discussed in the past, but as an AI only creation, it would be excellent. I think it could be a better creation of the B-17s in DCS, which are excellent visually, but only shoot intermittently at attackers, instead of all together. One Luftwaffe pilot described attacking a formation of B-17s from behind as "trying to make love to a porcupine that is on fire." Another Luftwaffe pilot said, "Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But to curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes."

 

I'm hopeful that someday we'll see 4-engine AI bombers. Hopefully it's somewhere on the developer's list of future projects.

[sevenless]

Not in this game. Use its predecessor Il-2 1946 instead. Still tons of fun.

 

 

[Voidhunger]

46 minutes ago, Feldgrun said:

I'd love to see a new series: Defense of the Reich.

 

It would initially only require the addition of one new AI aircraft: B-17. Later we could get AI B-24s, and a host of 4-engine British bombers, where users could fly variants of the Bf/Me-110 as night fighters. In a 1943 Luftwaffe-only mission, earlier versions of the unescorted B-17s could create the Schweinfurt raid that was described as "Black Thursday." For 1944-45 missions, players could either escort the heavy bombers into Germany, or intercept from Luftwaffe bases in France or Germany. I'd also like to see if the seemingly worthless Werfer-Granate anti-bomber rockets are effective against a B-17 formation.

 

I know that adding B-17s has been discussed in the past, but as an AI only creation, it would be excellent. I think it could be a better creation of the B-17s in DCS, which are excellent visually, but only shoot intermittently at attackers, instead of all together. One Luftwaffe pilot described attacking a formation of B-17s from behind as "trying to make love to a porcupine that is on fire." Another Luftwaffe pilot said, "Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But to curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes."

 

I'm hopeful that someday we'll see 4-engine AI bombers. Hopefully it's somewhere on the developer's list of future projects.

Hi Feldgrun, before this thread will be locked try this mission made by DFLion, its fun.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/75218-me262_vs_p51-mustang_b25-revision-2_mission-by-dflion/

[Soilworker]

Hey @Feldgrun

 

The main problem with creating a large bomber such as the B17 is mainly because the AI used to control all those gun turrets requires too much processing power so unfortunately your suggestion that it would be better than DCS because of turrets is not as simple as you might think. 

[Voidhunger]

 

[PatrickAWlson]

I used to say that AI was the thing most in need of improvement.  Now I think it's performance (kudos to 1C for the Ai improvements that have been made).  Performance improvements are laborious and tend to be incremental.  Performance issues often come from surprising and non intuitive sources.  Last time I did performance enhancements it was a six month task to whip about 100,000 lines of code into shape.  GB is many times larger and more complex than that.  Still, nothing for it but to strap on a profiler and have at it.  

 

If performance can be improved then ...

- more planes of all types in the air

- more responsive gameplay

- time compression might actually be close to what it says  

- B17s, AI if nothing else, become a possibility,

[357th_KW]

 

 

This mission runs on CB pretty regularly.  Obviously the B-25s are the biggest bomber option available right now and are AI only.  I think they dialed the formations down from 9 to 8 for performance and server stability.  A performance optimization that would allow for bigger formations then this would be really cool.  As it is, it’s a really fun and unique experience - you rarely see high altitude battles in IL-2.

[CountZero]

waist of time to model B-17 or B-24 in this game if 9 B25s are problem for game LOL gib more 109s and 190s and yaks plz

[[I./JG62]steppa]

We don´t talk about that kinda stuff around these parts

3 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

4-engine AI bombers

 

[PatrickAWlson]

I have high altitude intercept missions in PWCG.  I think I use a couple of flights of 4 bombers (8 total)with a four plane escort.  When these missions are assigned to the player no other flights are included in the mission.  They are very flyable but it does feel like I am pushing limits.

4 minutes ago, CountZero said:

waist of time to model B-17 or B-24 in this game if 9 B25s are problem for game LOL gib more 109s and 190s and yaks plz

 

See above comment on performance as #1 area of improvement.  It's not impossible.  It's just not possible right now.

[Jeronimo83]

2 hours ago, Soilworker said:

Hey @Feldgrun

 

The main problem with creating a large bomber such as the B17 is mainly because the AI used to control all those gun turrets requires too much processing power so unfortunately your suggestion that it would be better than DCS because of turrets is not as simple as you might think. 

I’ve heard this argument many times aswell. I’m not at all knowledgable about programming but I just can’t understand why processing power would be a bottleneck for large formations of bombers. Wouldn’t it be possible to assign a custom, simplified AI / damage model to a formation of bombers? Perhaps even asign a group of bombers to a single entity and only individualize a single bomber’s AI when it’s hit, for example. The only thing bombers do is fly in close formation to the leader, which I can imagine shouldn’t require sophisticated AI.

[sevenless]

8 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I have high altitude intercept missions in PWCG.  I think I use a couple of flights of 4 bombers (8 total)with a four plane escort.  When these missions are assigned to the player no other flights are included in the mission.  They are very flyable but it does feel like I am pushing limits.

 

See above comment on performance as #1 area of improvement.  It's not impossible.  It's just not possible right now.

 

You can have those high altitude bomber intercepts now also in SYN-Vanders Tool. There you can also experiment a little how big or small the impact of the amount of total planes is on your CPUs performance. My i9-9900K @5,2Ghz has zero problems with everything maxed out, but your milage may vary.

 

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

9 minutes ago, Jeronimo83 said:

I’ve heard this argument many times aswell. I’m not at all knowledgable about programming but I just can’t understand why processing power would be a bottleneck for large formations of bombers. Wouldn’t it be possible to assign a custom, simplified AI / damage model to a formation of bombers? Perhaps even asign a group of bombers to a single entity and only individualize a single bomber’s AI when it’s hit, for example. The only thing bombers do is fly in close formation to the leader, which I can imagine shouldn’t require sophisticated AI.

 

Simplified FM/DM is something 1C has refused to do.  IMHO their reasons are valid.  What happens in the simplified model when damage is taken?  Think of other scenarios.  All of that has to be coded.  They already have a physics engine that will handle flight.  A simplified model would involve developing a new one from the ground up.

 

What does simplified gunner AI look like?  Currently there are all sorts of considerations.  Take G force.  Do you eliminate the code that calculates G force impact on the gunner?  Not fun when you get shot down by a plane in a death spiral.  That's just one example.

 

I'm not saying that your idea is invalid, just that it comes with its own costs and is not simple to implement while maintaining standards.

 

IMHO 1C would be better served by what I said above: strap a profiler on, identify where the processing power is being consumed, and start eliminating waste one spot at a time.   Every improvement is a good thing.  

 

BTW: for all I know they are already doing this.

[Feldgrun]

42 minutes ago, [I./JG62]steppa said:

We don´t talk about that kinda stuff around these parts

From reading prior posts, I’m unfortunately aware of this and the arguments against including 4-engine bombers. However, given that 1946 has it, and their competitors (DCS & War Thunder), this game seems to be focused mostly on planes like, date I say it… IL-2 Sturmovik (and fighters).
 

To put it simply, the B-17 is just a B-25 with 4 engines, single tail, and adds a tail gunner and two waist gunners. Even a formation of 6-8 heavy bombers could drastically improve this game. 

[Charlo-VR]

1946, DCS, and War Thunder use very different game engines, ones that do not provide what we enjoy in detail with the engine IL-2 Great Battles uses. The IL-2 devs very much share enthusiasm for bringing 4-engine bombers into the game - but they know far better than any of us what is achievable within the current engine and the staff they have available (they are currently under-staffed with several open positions)

[Jason_Williams]

More bomber trolling. Closed.

 

Jason