Masters of the Air Mini Series(Apple TV)

[Taurus]

 

Oh 1C, I look forward to your Pe-8 collector plane.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Taurus
speeling

[LukeFF]

https://vintageaviationnews.com/warbirds-news/master-of-the-b-17-cockpit-dave-littleton.html

 

Quote

Thanks to well-known warbird expert Taigh Ramey, we can take you behind the scenes with the current Apple TV+ Masters of the Air series. Taigh gives us this insight into how Dave Littleton’s Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress replica cockpit section, along with his, and Taigh’s, expertise, was instrumental in the very accurate cockpit drills – one aspect of the series that is getting significant expert praise. 

 

[Irishratticus72]

Episode 5 hit hard.

[sevenless]

47 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

Episode 5 hit hard.

 

It sure did, as was real life.

 

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/mission-munster

[Irishratticus72]

9 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

It sure did, as was real life.

 

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/mission-munster

And still second Schweinfurt to come, Jesus.

[NachtJaeger110]

Ok in Ep5 there was now, for the first time, a CGI scene that I just cannot understand or forgive.

Large pieces of B17s, including a single engine nacelle with an engine and prop, just floating, really hovering, in the air, like in zero G. It is unclear where the pieces came from (far above??)

I'm sure that it was not a slow motion scene.

This was so confusing, to the point that my girlfriend asked why they've gone supernatural now

 

I still love the series, but whoever is responsible for that piece of CGI sin should be fired. hard.

Edited February 16, 2024 by NachtJaeger110

[No_85_Gramps]

2 hours ago, NachtJaeger110 said:

 

I'm sure that it was not a slow motion scene.

 

I thought it was done in slow motion for effect. Hard to tell for sure, but it's still a pretty good series.

[Charlo-VRde]

2 hours ago, No_85_Gramps said:

I thought it was done in slow motion for effect. Hard to tell for sure, but it's still a pretty good series.

I agree, I thought it captured well how surreal intense, life-threatening things can appear during and when recalled later

[BMA_Hellbender]

Episode 5 rocked.

 

They need to stick with crew dynamics and decent enough CGI, and this show is really good.

[DBFlyguy]

For the most part, all of the ground sequences with the B-17s (1:1 non-flying practical reproductions and CGI)  are very well done!

 

 

 

[Blitzen]

23 hours ago, LukeFF said:

https://vintageaviationnews.com/warbirds-news/master-of-the-b-17-cockpit-dave-littleton.html

 

 

Great read - thanks! 

On 11/10/2021 at 3:20 PM, Feathered_IV said:

I’m hoping the CGI “artists” don’t use Star Wars as a primary source.  

I did on a book cover art for The Mighty 305th, years ago!?

[Blitzen]

Newer work is a bit closer to reality...

[Majpalmer]

So far, I'm enjoying it and looking forward to the next episodes each week. What I'm starting to wonder involves the characters. They're all dead or POWs. Who's left? The navigator? The Husky? 

 

The European air war was as lethal for those involved as the U-Boat war was for the U-Waffe. About 80% of German single-seat fighter pilots during the war ended up dead, physically invalided, or POWs. 

 

Anyone know what the percentage was for the Eighth Air Force?

[BMA_Hellbender]

11 minutes ago, Majpalmer said:

So far, I'm enjoying it and looking forward to the next episodes each week. What I'm starting to wonder involves the characters. They're all dead or POWs. Who's left? The navigator? The Husky? 

 

The European air war was as lethal for those involved as the U-Boat war was for the U-Waffe. About 80% of German single-seat fighter pilots during the war ended up dead, physically invalided, or POWs. 

 

Anyone know what the percentage was for the Eighth Air Force?

 

This finally clicked with me last episode: the people we're meant to care about are the ones that don't get to fly anymore (shot down/captured or promoted to a desk job), since flying bombing missions was absolute suicide at that point in the war. I guess that Martyrs of the Air doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

I think that by episode 7 or 8 we'll be at Big Week and beyond, when the Allies achieved air superiority. By the time the P-51s can escort the bombers all the way to Berlin, air supremacy was achieved and dropping bombs became a bit more of an actual desk job for the navigator and bombardier.

[354thFG_Leifr]

58 minutes ago, Majpalmer said:

So far, I'm enjoying it and looking forward to the next episodes each week. What I'm starting to wonder involves the characters. They're all dead or POWs. Who's left? The navigator? The Husky? 

 

The European air war was as lethal for those involved as the U-Boat war was for the U-Waffe. About 80% of German single-seat fighter pilots during the war ended up dead, physically invalided, or POWs. 

 

Anyone know what the percentage was for the Eighth Air Force?

 

I can't say for the Eighth Air Force, but RAF Bomber Command broke down roughly like this (according to the RAF Hendon museum): out of one hundred crew, 60 would be KIA or MIA, 25 would become prisoners of war, five permanently disabled and removed from duty, and the remaining five complete their first tour (of thirty sorties). It's terrible really.

[DBFlyguy]

1 hour ago, Majpalmer said:

So far, I'm enjoying it and looking forward to the next episodes each week. What I'm starting to wonder involves the characters. They're all dead or POWs. Who's left? The navigator? The Husky? 

 

 

Not really spoilers but...Crosby and Rosenthal obviously make it through the war as the mini-series is partly based on Crosby's book, " A Wing and a Prayer" and Rosenthal is arguably the most well known member of the 100th BG, participated in the Nuremberg trials and did several interviews and documentaries on his service before his passing in 2007.

 

Both Crosby and Rosenthal were featured in the "Firestorm Dresden" Wings episode back in the day:

 

 

[LukeFF]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:44 PM, NachtJaeger110 said:

I still love the series, but whoever is responsible for that piece of CGI sin should be fired. hard.

 

That footage was obviously slowed down for dramatic effect. ? You can see it in the crewmen's reactions and the way they emphasize their breathing.

[Lusekofte]

You guys should be banned from seeing movies containing aeroplanes

Taking everything damn serious about the planes. Not one mentioning about they all was blown to smithereens 

[NachtJaeger110]

Watch it again please. It was not slowed down. the tailgun is firing full speed when a whole engine just levitates weightlessly into view. next scene: watch the top turret gunner. That is Zero G.

I take offense bc the rest is so darn good,  just that one scene stands out...

But Ok it's just me I'lI shut up?

Edited February 18, 2024 by NachtJaeger110

[Blitzen]

Microprose now has a very high bar for its upcoming Flying Fortress VR sim thanks to this series!

[tattywelshie]

Watched the most recent episode, actually had tears in my eyes, seeing just one of them coming back, just awful what those guys went through. Really starting to like it now, I’m ignoring the CGI and other things that we all love to spot, and trying to just invest in the story and what these crews went through. 

[Majpalmer]

I was born in 1951 so my father and almost all my other male relatives his age were in the war. Only one didn't come back, and he was in the 15th AF. (Although he didn't die on a bombing mission.) My Uncle volunteered a few days after Pearl Harbor. He never got out of the country. 

 

Of the veterans I knew, the guy with the most God-awful stories was a Black guy I worked with in the 1960s. He had been in one of the Black Regiments and served in New Guinea. Maybe the First Division Marines who went into Guadalcanal had it worse, but just maybe. His stories were horrible. I worked as a historian for the USN and I've interviewed veterans of several wars. I've talked to guys who were on Iwo, first wave on D-Day, etc., but none of their stories were as harrowing as old Archie's tales from New Guinea. 

[Falcon41]

3 hours ago, tattywelshie said:

Watched the most recent episode, actually had tears in my eyes, seeing just one of them coming back, just awful what those guys went through. Really starting to like it now, I’m ignoring the CGI and other things that we all love to spot, and trying to just invest in the story and what these crews went through. 

I couldn't agree more. As we sit in front of our computers and play this game it's easy to forget just how horrible the air war was, over Europe, which is why movies like this are important, irrespective of complaints about CGI, etc.  We don't feel the anxiety, the gut retching fear, the cold, and the loss of friends these young men experienced, while we attempt to reproduce missions like they did so many years ago, in the comfort of our homes.  I'm loving this series as it brings me to tears and I can't thank these men enough for the sacrifices they made for many of us who weren't even born yet.

[kestrel79]

When they were both in the bomb bay waiting to bail out...it made me anxious. It's not like in BoB where they got test jumps. That was their first time doing that, ever. Will their chute open? Get shot down? Will the chute open? Will I be killed or captured on landing? Just awful. Really feel for these guys and what they went through.

[BMA_Hellbender]

Part Six was really good. No flying but tons of character development.

[Irishratticus72]

3 hours ago, Hellbender said:

Part Six was really good. No flying but tons of character development.

Yep, I prefer the focus on the characters also, it really fleshes out the reality of what they went through.

 

[Charlo-VRde]

My wife was in another room in our house and could hear my reaction at the final reveal in Part 6

[Lofte]

These guys look too cool in their leather jackets when they get captured.

They had to be convinced to donate these jackets to the German Winter Relief Fund )

Edited February 24, 2024 by Lofte

[Majpalmer]

Decades ago I saw an interview with the actor Donald Pleasance, who was part of a Lancaster crew that was downed over Germany. His responsibilities included intercom communications. In the cold, breath would form ice crystals on the microphones and could result in short circuits. He always stuffed his pockets with condom before missions. He used them to keep the moisture out of the mics.

 

When he was captured and interrogated, as the officer watched a soldier went through Pleasance's pockets and threw everything on the desk, including loads of condoms. The interrogator looked up at him and said something like You won't be needing them here, or Did you think you'd need them her, or something along those lines. 

[Robli]

I remember years ago thinking that Americans put quite a lot of extra men in danger, when they put 10-men crews in B-17's (Liberators even had 11 crew) compared to British and their 7-men Lancaster crews, but reasoned that maybe there was enough evidence that the additional gunner protection made it worth it. Now, looking at this series, it came back to my mind again that was it really worth having 10-men crews in these Fortresses. I looked into it and found some statistics that during August 1942 - April 1944 5.62% of 8th Air Force sorties were shot down compared to 4.89% RAF Bomber Command sorties and KIA/MIA per plane was 7.7 for 8th Air Force compared to 5.1 for RAF Bomber Command, so that means a lot more men lost. Of course RAF was flying mostly during nights and USAAF during days, so that surely contributed to the loss ratio.

 

The same source brought out some other interesting statistics, too. Probability of surviving first tour of duty (25 sorties for Americans, 30 sorties for British) was 23.55% vs 22.22%, so while the losses were really horrible (over three quarters of all aircrew was lost during first tour), British did not really have any advantage there, despite flying night missions. On top of that, 22% of 8th Air Force aircrew was captured, compared to only 12% of RAF Bomber Command aircrew, so while the losses of men from combat perspective were bigger for Americans, they actually had significantly higher probability of surviving the war, just many had to spend a couple of years at prisoner camps. That big difference of getting captured vs killed is most probably explained by getting shot down and bailing out during daytime compared to getting shot down at night. I doubt that it was technically that much easier to bail out from a Fortress compared to a Lancaster?

[Majpalmer]

1 hour ago, Robli said:

I remember years ago thinking that Americans put quite a lot of extra men in danger, when they put 10-men crews in B-17's (Liberators even had 11 crew) compared to British and their 7-men Lancaster crews, but reasoned that maybe there was enough evidence that the additional gunner protection made it worth it. Now, looking at this series, it came back to my mind again that was it really worth having 10-men crews in these Fortresses. I looked into it and found some statistics that during August 1942 - April 1944 5.62% of 8th Air Force sorties were shot down compared to 4.89% RAF Bomber Command sorties and KIA/MIA per plane was 7.7 for 8th Air Force compared to 5.1 for RAF Bomber Command, so that means a lot more men lost. Of course RAF was flying mostly during nights and USAAF during days, so that surely contributed to the loss ratio.

 

The same source brought out some other interesting statistics, too. Probability of surviving first tour of duty (25 sorties for Americans, 30 sorties for British) was 23.55% vs 22.22%, so while the losses were really horrible (over three quarters of all aircrew was lost during first tour), British did not really have any advantage there, despite flying night missions. On top of that, 22% of 8th Air Force aircrew was captured, compared to only 12% of RAF Bomber Command aircrew, so while the losses of men from combat perspective were bigger for Americans, they actually had significantly higher probability of surviving the war, just many had to spend a couple of years at prisoner camps. That big difference of getting captured vs killed is most probably explained by getting shot down and bailing out during daytime compared to getting shot down at night. I doubt that it was technically that much easier to bail out from a Fortress compared to a Lancaster?

Good question. And here's another factor to consider. During 1942 and into 1944, Luftwaffe fighters downed most B-17s. But that ratio began to change in the latter stages of the war with FLAK downing most bombers.  Those extra gunners in the 17s had zero impact on FLAK. I's note that in the Pacific, we started pulling the gunners from the B-29s because they weren't needed. Saved men when planes were lost to FLAK. 

[DBFlyguy]

Preview for "Episode 10" which is the "The Bloody Hundredth" documentary:

 

 

[DBFlyguy]

Episode 8.... YIKES.... ?some of the worst writing and CGI I've seen on any show or movie in a very long time. 

[Hanu]

Of course you may think what you will, but for me CGI is completely satisfactory to tell the story and writing... well... it is based on real events after all.

[DBFlyguy]

28 minutes ago, Hanu said:

Of course you may think what you will, but for me CGI is completely satisfactory to tell the story and writing... well... it is based on real events after all.

Have you seen the episode yet?

 

Here is a minor spoiler:

 

 

 

[kestrel79]

The "rock your wings" to get the tanks off animation didn't really look real to me. The physics didn't look like it had the weight of a real airplane.

 

Lol on the Noooo that's exactly what I thought of. Thought I was watching Red Tails for second there. That's too bad because I think a Tuskegee series would be awesome.

[Hanu]

57 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

Have you seen the episode yet?

 

Here is a minor spoiler:

 

 

 

Perhaps I don't know enough of Tuskegee airmen then.

[DBFlyguy]

19 minutes ago, kestrel79 said:

The "rock your wings" to get the tanks off animation didn't really look real to me. The physics didn't look like it had the weight of a real airplane.

 

Lol on the Noooo that's exactly what I thought of. Thought I was watching Red Tails for second there. That's too bad because I think a Tuskegee series would be awesome.

Yeah, then also that one crash sequence that honestly sounded like a star wars pod racer rounding a corner...

 

A Tuskegee series would've been good... or basically any USAAF fighter group that fought in Europe during WWII would've been a better call for several reasons.  The Eagle Squadrons/4th FG would've been absolutely perfect in my opinion.  You'd get the RAF aspect along with Spitfires which would do great for the European audience and finish it out with P-47 and P-51s for the US audience. Logistically speaking, doing a show on a B-17 group when you didn't even bother to make sure you could get a real B-17 was just a sign of a production that wasn't really up to snuff from the outset. 

 

For me, the show peaked at Episodes 5 and 6 (ironically, both of those episodes were directed by the "Captain Marvel" directors ?...) But bad CGI issues aside, the main problem with the show has been the writing, it's been really bad in my opinion.

[357th_KW]

28 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

Yeah, then also that one crash sequence that honestly sounded like a star wars pod racer rounding a corner...

 

A Tuskegee series would've been good... or basically any USAAF fighter group that fought in Europe during WWII would've been a better call for several reasons.  The Eagle Squadrons/4th FG would've been absolutely perfect in my opinion.  You'd get the RAF aspect along with Spitfires which would do great for the European audience and finish it out with P-47 and P-51s for the US audience. Logistically speaking, doing a show on a B-17 group when you didn't even bother to make sure you could get a real B-17 was just a sign of a production that wasn't really up to snuff from the outset. 

 

For me, the show peaked at Episodes 5 and 6 (ironically, both of those episodes were directed by the "Captain Marvel" directors ?...) But bad CGI issues aside, the main problem with the show has been the writing, it's been really bad in my opinion.

Yeah it would have been nice to have some segments featuring a group like the 4th, as it would have done a better job of “show don’t tell” in providing context of why there’s no fighter escort etc.  On top of that, there have already been multiple movies made about the Tuskegee Airmen in just the last few decades.

[LukeFF]

Sometimes I wonder if there will be any movie or miniseries featuring warbirds that will be satisfactory for some of you. ?