Where are the in-depth space combat sims?

[Drim]

I feel like the more hardcore space combat sim market is relatively dormant at the moment.  By hardcore I mean details similar to what we see in IL-2 and DCS rather than current technology wars in space (although that would be interesting in a different way).  We have things like Elite Dangerous, which I like, but the combat is more Korean MMO than sim in my opinion, and Star Citizen which is exactly what I want, assuming it was completed, but we all know how that is going.  If someone could make (and release) a space combat sim with very detailed damage models, destroyable sub-systems, clickable cockpits, etc. then they could grab an otherwise currently suspended audience.  Hell, I would really like to see 1C try their hand at a space combat sim someday.  Even if it was with a Star Wars magic flight model, the combat could still be amazing.  Anyone else feel like we don't really have a good modern representation currently?       

Edited November 9, 2021 by Drim

[Gambit21]

Star Citizen physics is questionable - so even if that were ready it’s still not what you want.

 

I’m with you - but it doesn’t exist.

[AndyJWest]

I'm not really sure what a 'hardcore space combat sim' would look like. Physics basically dictates that any remotely-plausible combat would take place way beyond visual range. If you have the means to travel at interplanetary velocities, slowing right down to fight makes no sense at all. Star Wars etc based their 'combat' scenes on WW2 war films because it looks good, rather than for realism...

[Drim]

34 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

I'm not really sure what a 'hardcore space combat sim' would look like. Physics basically dictates that any remotely-plausible combat would take place way beyond visual range. If you have the means to travel at interplanetary velocities, slowing right down to fight makes no sense at all. Star Wars etc based their 'combat' scenes on WW2 war films because it looks good, rather than for realism...

 

Yes, going as hardcore realistic as possible would be very different than your average sci-fi space game.  I think it's a given that game devs would have to take liberties with the flight model because they would be designing it around weapons and technology that doesn't even exist.  I'm fine with that aspect and still think things like Star Wars combat is fun (at least the way they represent it in the movies).  It's basically just WW2 in space which is neat.  Going all out on designing the way the ship's systems work in game and in how much detail it can be damaged is what I'm really interested in there.   

 

Edit: Actually, there is a game that reaches a lot of my criteria but it's being designed by a small studio.  I've played it and it's cool, but still early so they have a ways to go.  One of the devs recently said they're planning on adding single-player elements, some of which is already there because  bots participate in large battles too.  They're also working on sub-system targeting which I'm looking forward to.  The flight model is at least partially realistic in that you can turn off assisting boosters and drift around.  They also have seamless space to planet transition and vice versa. The ship designs remind me of Homeworld which is a plus for me. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Drim

[Charlo-VRde]

I think the Star Wars approach is really the only one that would build a combat audience remotely like we have here in IL-2. Looking at more realistic physics approaches such as we see in The Expanse, Interstellar, and Ender's Game, any type of more realistic space combat would be much more intellectual and planning-based, rather then stick and rudder input.  Perhaps some day I'll find Star Citizen enjoyable in VR... but I am 55 years old, so don't expect to see that ?

[simfan2015]

I have tried 2 Steam early access space sims that feature 'true' Newtonian physics. None made it to release status. Boring. No customers. It's a bit like trying to sell helicopter sims to arcade players (Apacha Air Assault comes to mind).... negative reviews are a sure thing whether the title is great or not... Doesn't matter. IMHO If the spacecraft does not fly like star wars, everspace 2 or an IL2 GB warbird ... Then better... forget it. 

[RAY-EU]

 

Van Allen Belt between 5.000 miles and 15.000 miles should be the limit of small human space ships around earth, more should be for enormous human space ships of miles to keep safety from enormous solar radiation. That’s the reason we couldn’t send Shuttle missions like Atlantis Endeavor … to orbit the moon and take pictures with astronauts orbiting around the moon or send there the international space station like China is building a a new biggest one .
Stanley Kubrick knew about that premise and them George Lukas in Star Wars : most of all battles inside presumed Van Allen belts closed to planets with miles space cruisers and as they Ridley Scott In Alien realized as in their movies with enormous space ships of star science fiction movies : 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by RAY-EU

[RAY-EU]

But We can sent sondas robots across Van Allen belt to the moon or far away like missions Chang’e’s financed actually also $ by the NASA & € the European Space Agency : 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by RAY-EU
Russia test destroyed a own satellite with a cruise misil as China tested in 2017 as a military counter Star Wars program era test cold war 3 era , as theater for a realistic game

[HR_Zunzun]

If we ever master faster than light travel (or folding space-time) the technology would be so advanced that then is not unreasonable at all to think that we will be able to master radiation protection, G-forces and gravity control and have something like is despicted in the games we currently have. Obviously, there is no reason at all to conclude it will be anything close to that as other technologies like AI would be so advanced too that manned flight could be irrelevant.

In any case, the future of space flight is so uncertain that all of the current games despiction aren´t wrong (in principle) as we do not know what it will be.

They need to be fun.

To me, Star Citizen is what I would like in terms of possibilites and fun (if they ever finish it).

[DD_fruitbat]

I'd be all in for an 'Expanse' style space combat sim....

[Diggun]

They really dropped the ball not making a proper Battlestar Galactica (2003 version) space combat sim.

 

Il2: Battle of Caprica, anyone?

Edited November 10, 2021 by Diggun

[Props]

I played Independence War for a while back in the day and it was tough to learn and fight as it used Newtonian physics and you could have a team mate (live person) to help with all the systems management in a fight, which was in all honesty needed as it was a complex ship. It was actually really fun using lateral movements and thrusters to orient the ship in combat and in evasion tactics, plus you would be firing missiles from thousands of kilometers and then maneuvering like hell to avoid incoming missiles. It looked really good too as I remember coming in close to one of my victims highlighted against a red sun, drifting with a trail of plasma and wreckage to finish him off and that was an impressive sight. Nothing like it today I'm afraid.

 

I had high hopes for the Babylon 5 Star Fury space combat sim back then too as like the show it was going to be based on true space Newtonian physics too, but it never came to fruition. Battlestar Galactica would've been nice, but I don't think they got very far on that one. I once had great hope for Star Citizen, even signed up early, but I have since found better things to do with my thumbs than fiddlin' about waiting for that to happen as originally imagined.     

[danielprates]

15 hours ago, Props said:

I played Independence War for a while back in the day and it was tough to learn and fight as it used Newtonian physics and you could have a team mate (live person) to help with all the systems management in a fight, which was in all honesty needed as it was a complex ship. It was actually really fun using lateral movements and thrusters to orient the ship in combat and in evasion tactics, plus you would be firing missiles from thousands of kilometers and then maneuvering like hell to avoid incoming missiles. It looked really good too as I remember coming in close to one of my victims highlighted against a red sun, drifting with a trail of plasma and wreckage to finish him off and that was an impressive sight. Nothing like it today I'm afraid.

 

I had high hopes for the Babylon 5 Star Fury space combat sim back then too as like the show it was going to be based on true space Newtonian physics too, but it never came to fruition. Battlestar Galactica would've been nice, but I don't think they got very far on that one. I once had great hope for Star Citizen, even signed up early, but I have since found better things to do with my thumbs than fiddlin' about waiting for that to happen as originally imagined.     

 

You beat me to it, I was going to mention Independence War.

 

It is probably the only one that comes close to what the OP is proposing. Further than that the only interesting games are the nin-military types, KSP high at the top.

[Ribbon]

Perfect space sim imo would have galaxy size of Elite dangerous, planets/ships/FPS of Star Citizen and FM of Infinity:Battlescape!

 

So you can explore galaxy with dangers and survival aspect in it, for example: deep in the space you get attacked by scavangers and ypu barely made it alive, beimg forced to land on planets/old outposts/ship wreckages to gather repair material.

And exploring old outposts or wreckages ypu never know what danger (alien, scavanger, animal) is in there (a pinch of "Alien" atmosphere in there).

[Diggun]

I recently picked up No Man's Sky on steam sale to scratch a space flying itch, and promptly returned it in disgust when I realised there's no support for joysticks! Outrageous.

[Props]

I played No Man's Sky for a while about a year and a half ago. It was OK for exploring, and there was some exciting moments, but I got tired of always collecting goods to sweeten my bank account, shuffling my cargo around to make room and a quasi-intuitive interface that left me dead at frustrating moments trying to figure something out. Yeah the lack of joystick, etc. was a big hit too.

 

I've considered Kerbal Space Program, but that looks addictive and might distract me from my love of flying in IL2! So I'm afraid to try it?

[Drim]

4 hours ago, Props said:

I've considered Kerbal Space Program, but that looks addictive and might distract me from my love of flying in IL2! So I'm afraid to try it?

 

Well, they're working on KSP 2 now so you can always wait to try that when it's out. 

[Monostripezebra]

I wonder.. whatever happened to "Rogue System"? I kinda lost track of that one..

 

I also heard positive things about "Objects in Space"

Edited November 11, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[Tektolnes]

2 hours ago, Monostripezebra said:

I wonder.. whatever happened to "Rogue System"? I kinda lost track of that one..

 

I also heard positive things about "Objects in Space"

 

For Rogue System the developer was a one-man show and was progressing very slowly as a result. The dev then apparently had an accident and suffered a head injury and it's basically been abandoned since 2018.

 

Objects in Space I've played a bit. It's kind of a sim sub trading game. It's been abandoned by its devs as well though and has gotten a bit more buggy over time. Pity as was a nice concept but don't think it's full potential was realised.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tektolnes

[Ribbon]

Looking forward to Starfield!

[Diggun]

Last decent space sim was X-wing v. TIE Fighter (and the Balance of Power campaign add on.) Don't @me.

[Monostripezebra]

14 hours ago, Tektolnes said:

 

For Rogue System the developer was a one-man show and was progressing very slowly as a result. The dev then apparently had an accident and suffered a head injury and it's basically been abandoned since 2018.

 

Objects in Space I've played a bit. It's kind of a sim sub trading game. It's been abandoned by its devs as well though and has gotten a bit more buggy over time. Pity as was a nice concept but don't think it's full potential was realised.

 

Oh dam.. that is really a sad story. So many "could have been" great games out there that never grew to full potential.

[Avimimus]

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "Children of a Dead Earth".

 

...that is the game where you get to engineer the engines of ships, the barrel sleeves of guns, the types of gyros used ...all attempting to replicate real physics and orbital dynamics.

 

IMHO, its one huge failing is the AI. Guns only fire when the game determines a hit is likely (rather than firing a 'flak bracket' to saturate an area). So by using a manual override one can start firing before the AI. Also, because they don't bracket their fire  the turrets will often be missing targets entirely. One can fine tune the guns to maximise dispersion (which helps) - but the AI doesn't do that.

 

The same goes for missile guidance AI - they always aim for the rear of ship and tend to fly past it... and are very vulnerable to decoys.

 

It is pretty stunning overall though as a project - I just wish the AI had been developed a bit more.

 

[Mtnbiker1998]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, DD_fruitbat said:

I'd be all in for an 'Expanse' style space combat sim....

All I want in life is BVR space missile combat and PDCs shooting them down.

 

..and also Zero G VR gunfights. Man that'd be fun...

[PB0_Roll]

For BSG fans I recommend this free sim:

 

https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=81859.0

 

I had a blast with it, a few years ago.

[simfan2015]

In Depth Space Combat sims ???

IMHO we already have too many of those (ED and SC being good examples of course, but a.o. in Steam there are others to check out).

What I can't find is a space sim with very good planetary exploration (and battle?) on/of even 1 (!) single ALIEN planet.

Because existing space-games like to do too much it all looks so generic, even 'childisch/cartoonish' (like NMS) to me.

Maybe 'Starfield' will change it all !?

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by simfan2015

[PatrickAWlson]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:23 AM, =VARP=Ribbon said:

Looking forward to Starfield!

 

Somehow it seems uncool to like Bethesda games these days, but I love them.  Dropped $20 just to play the new quests in the latest Skyrim drop.  I get the criticism about shallow gameplay, and I would certainly like improved writing, but the flipside is unconstrained gameplay.  I fill in the rest with imagination.

[Irishratticus72]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:27 PM, Diggun said:

Last decent space sim was X-wing v. TIE Fighter (and the Balance of Power campaign add on.) Don't @me.

Freespace. That is all. 

[Ribbon]

9 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Somehow it seems uncool to like Bethesda games these days, but I love them.  Dropped $20 just to play the new quests in the latest Skyrim drop.  I get the criticism about shallow gameplay, and I would certainly like improved writing, but the flipside is unconstrained gameplay.  I fill in the rest with imagination.

I usually don't follow masses trends, Bethesda has a really admirable games under the hood.

It's easy to get me with space themed games so i'm quite sure i'll go with Starfield nevermind will it be phenomenal or average....in these kind of games i find few things that flame my imagination to fill the rest.

 

Space enviroment, traveling from planet to planet, good atmo re-entry animation and i'm sold....add to it if it's even close as they call it a Han Solo simulator and i'll be a happy chap.

I don't expect miracles, same was with Cyberpunk and i gave it a positive review...it is a good game!

Would love to se someday Cowboy Bebop space sim ?

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

I usually don't follow masses trends, Bethesda has a really admirable games under the hood.

It's easy to get me with space themed games so i'm quite sure i'll go with Starfield nevermind will it be phenomenal or average....in these kind of games i find few things that flame my imagination to fill the rest.

 

Space enviroment, traveling from planet to planet, good atmo re-entry animation and i'm sold....add to it if it's even close as they call it a Han Solo simulator and i'll be a happy chap.

I don't expect miracles, same was with Cyberpunk and i gave it a positive review...it is a good game!

Would love to se someday Cowboy Bebop space sim ?

 

Privateer remains my all time favorite space game.  Some of the Starfield info has that same vibe: pirates, fanatics, two major factions, insert story, fly spaceship.  Hoping for the best.

[OG_NickNack68]

I second that Pat. Privateer was a great game. I can't remember but I believe that was an offshoot of the Wing Commander series? Wing Commander.... Classic! Who wouldn't enjoy destroying fleets of space cats! So much fun! Actually I remember the makers of Wing Commander (Origin maybe) had a WW1 flight sim too but I can't remember the name? Wings of Glory! That's the name! I was so excited to play that one.

Edited November 22, 2021 by OG_NickNack68

[Ribbon]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:10 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Privateer remains my all time favorite space game.  Some of the Starfield info has that same vibe: pirates, fanatics, two major factions, insert story, fly spaceship.  Hoping for the best.

I was 7yo boy with a Gameboy back then so i never played Wing commander.

Always a fan of space movies and tv shows, liked Mass effect 2 and later Elite Dangerous but no space game or sandbox quite in my taste so far....maybe Star Citizen/Sqdn42 if it's ever going to be released, was hoping ED:Odyssey will be a bit better.

But as you said Starfield has that right vibe; pirates, factions, star system and flying spaceships and most of all hoping for a good storyline.

 

[simfan2015]

Games like Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen want to be everything to all people ... combat, exploration, building, economy, planetside battles ...

Made it (for me) far to complicated to really enjoy ... if one also want to focus on other games/sims so I gave up !

Wing commander, Privateer, Star Wars etc did it the way I like it ... easier and focussing on 1, at most 2 goals ... and try not become a swiss knife with nothing but sharp edges.

If in-depth simply means 'complicated' (with hunderds of key combos depending on on- or off-planet to remember) then I am out.

 

(but as always YMMV).

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by simfan2015

[Ace_Pilto]

On 11/10/2021 at 6:11 AM, Drim said:

I feel like the more hardcore space combat sim market is relatively dormant at the moment.  By hardcore I mean details similar to what we see in IL-2 and DCS rather than current technology wars in space (although that would be interesting in a different way).  We have things like Elite Dangerous, which I like, but the combat is more Korean MMO than sim in my opinion, and Star Citizen which is exactly what I want, assuming it was completed, but we all know how that is going.  If someone could make (and release) a space combat sim with very detailed damage models, destroyable sub-systems, clickable cockpits, etc. then they could grab an otherwise currently suspended audience.  Hell, I would really like to see 1C try their hand at a space combat sim someday.  Even if it was with a Star Wars magic flight model, the combat could still be amazing.  Anyone else feel like we don't really have a good modern representation currently?       

 

This will scratch your itch.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/392160/X4_Foundations/

[simfan2015]

Thank you Ace_Pilto for pointing this out.

But what I like is something Single Mlayer (+ MP) not unlike Wing commander, Privateer, Star Wars : Squadrons ... with state-of-the-art 2021 graphics, in other words involving space-combat in a huge Sandbox.

Or planetary exploration and/or combat with true Alien planet scenery ... bit like NMS, only better and ... not so boring. 

Squadron 42 maybe !!!?

Edited December 1, 2021 by simfan2015

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

 

Squadron 42 maybe !!!?

 

Ha - good one.

Might take just a minute.

[simfan2015]

Gambit21, that would fit the bill, would it not ?

But I do understand your ... disbelief ?

[Trooper117]

3 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Squadron 42 maybe !!!?

 

When you know who gets his bank balance up to around a billion dollars, you may have a chance on it surfacing!

[Gambit21]

6 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Gambit21, that would fit the bill, would it not ?

 

 

It would if it existed. But at this juncture you might as well make up a game completely in your head that fits your needs exactly, give it a name, then start waiting for it.

 

IDSC (In Depth Space Combat)

Is a new forthcoming game that from what I understand, meets all of your desires and needs and then some!

It has all of the features promises in Squadron 42 plus many more, better graphics, smoother gameplay, better physics, and a 2000 mission single player campaign.

I'm not sure about the release date, but likely it will be here before Squadron 42.

 

 

[Ribbon]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It would if it existed. But at this juncture you might as well make up a game completely in your head that fits your needs exactly, give it a name, then start waiting for it.

 

IDSC (In Depth Space Combat)

Is a new forthcoming game that from what I understand, meets all of your desires and needs and then some!

It has all of the features promises in Squadron 42 plus many more, better graphics, smoother gameplay, better physics, and a 2000 mission single player campaign.

I'm not sure about the release date, but likely it will be here before Squadron 42.

 

 

IDSC ?

Answer da call 2022 ....2023, 2024,....Sqdn42:Future battles.......Sqdn42:2046

Edited December 2, 2021 by =VARP=Ribbon