Bearcat Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I really don't do solo campaigns.. but I guess I would be doing them if that was the way this works..
6./ZG26_Gielow Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I voted... To be clear, if we have to play solo campaign to unlock some mods, I will think twice before to buy BOS and, sorry, but much probably will not buy it. I never played any solo campaign (IL2) & just two or three solo missions on ROF....so I will be unable to unlock any of these mods. So, if these mods are necessary to play in online coop missions , I will just have to stop playing!!! it should be far better to offer these mods freely with this solo campaign or payable for other customers that play only online coop. Hahaha !! I really doubt that anyone will stop playing because of that
Rama Posted August 17, 2013 Author Posted August 17, 2013 Is it really impossible to avoid comments on other's opinions and to respect everybody?
Jaws2002 Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 I don't have time for War Thunder kind of unlocks crap. The idea is retarded. I buy and play games for entertainment, when I can get some free time. My entertainment, not someone else's!!!! I don't see a reason to play games that force me to spend endless, valuable hours doing something I don't like, just to be able to use something I like. The work I have to do to pay for the game, should be enough stuff I have to do to enjoy the game. Don't turn the game into a job. I already have one. 2
FuriousMeow Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 It's not released yet, I have no idea what is in store so I can't have an opinion on how it's implemented since no one actually knows. I don't play SP campaigns, so I have a bias to having everything available online that has been purchased - but again - why not wait for the early beta before grabbing the pitch forks?
Jaws2002 Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) It's not released yet, I have no idea what is in store so I can't have an opinion on how it's implemented since no one actually knows. I don't play SP campaigns, so I have a bias to having everything available online that has been purchased - but again - why not wait for the early beta before grabbing the pitch forks? I saw how it's implemented in another 1C game and it scares the crap out of me. Try War Thunder to see what I mean. The bad thing is, 1C considers that game a great success and tries to export that kind of business to other games. You can buy yourself G' tolerant pilot and other crap like that, or unlock it with "experience". You have to get 50 kills in some slow a$$ 1937 plane to get to use a certain skin. That, online, in servers where people can buy themselves jets and uber new engines for their late war planes. The whole thing is retarded and tuned for kids that are too young to have a job and can spend endless hours in the game. The average age of Il-2 players was always between 30 and 40. We don't have time for that kind of work. When I have time and if I want to play an offline, or online mission, I want to be able to customize my plane before flying. I don't want to do multiple milkruns in order to be able to use something I want. The whole idea is retarded. Edited August 25, 2013 by Jaws2002
FuriousMeow Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) Again, it's not 1C building this. It's 777, and those guys who are developing it? They played Il-2 and ran wars in the Il-2 series. They know what simmers want and they have supplied it with RoF. You can complain ad nauseam about War Thunder or 1C, and none of it applies to what is being created here. You are pretty much acting like a child with this rant. I'll take the blame for calling you out on it - and I will absolutely not have a problem with having my posting priveledges revoked due to that. This is not being tuned to children with no job, the price point alone for early adoption is indicative of that. Edited August 25, 2013 by FuriousMeow
Rama Posted August 25, 2013 Author Posted August 25, 2013 Is it really impossible to avoid comments on other's opinions and to respect everybody? Well... I think I have my answer... sadly, it seem's to be impossible...
FuriousMeow Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) This whole 1C thing has gone to many people's heads. Luthier controlled the previous project that was a mess, he rebooted it to rebuild the graphics engine mid-devlopment and was the cause of feature creap. 1C might be the investor, but the control over both War Thunder and BoS is the developers. Unlocks and all that nonsense plus the F2P and P2W model were thought up by Gaijin during development, Gaijin is behind War Thunder and all of it's arcadey shenanigans. It was evident in the WoP and BoS editions. Edited August 25, 2013 by FuriousMeow
FuriousMeow Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 It would appear Jaws deleted his post after yours Rama, which my reply was to.
Jaws2002 Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Sorry. I deleted my post because we already went against what Rama asked us. Let's just keep this one for voting. Sorry.
Zak Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 I saw how it's implemented in another 1C game and it scares the crap out of me. Try War Thunder to see what I mean. The bad thing is, 1C considers that game a great success and tries to export that kind of business to other games. You can buy yourself G' tolerant pilot and other crap like that, or unlock it with "experience". You have to get 50 kills in some slow a$$ 1937 plane to get to use a certain skin. That, online, in servers where people can buy themselves jets and uber new engines for their late war planes. Jaws2002, if you're annoyed with WT business model then why don't you tell them about it? Having unlockables doesn't make IL2BOS a grind-to-level 24/7 MMO but adds to game's lifetime, adds motivation to try all content and extra interest to obtain new bits of it. And no one puts you into a situation where you fly I-15 vs FW-190 - it's you who set the rules for multiplayer and make it as just as possible since there's no balance in the sim.
79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 As a mission builder That feature will be an horror to manage in our squad and other one. When i'll build a mission, i will have to do my mission with the unlock of my players. We already have the same thing with Rof with the plane, but we can manage it (hardly but it's possible). But for features on planes, it will be an horror. I don't know if the following situation will be real, but i imagine a bombing mission for exemple. Players enter the mission, and one after one, they say, sorry man, i didn't unlock that bomb. Ok men, let's play battlefields instead of IL2. If I understand the model right, there will be relatively few things that can be unlocked or bought extra. I see your concern, but I think it will be a minor annoyance rather than a big problem. It's a bit like making missions for the modded IL2 versions, most missions are made for the vanilla version to avoid the problem.
III/JG53Frankyboy Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 well , if you want fly a fighterbombermission online and have not unlocked the bombs already, that is a 'proplem' :D
Habu Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 If I understand the model right, there will be relatively few things that can be unlocked or bought extra. I see your concern, but I think it will be a minor annoyance rather than a big problem. It's a bit like making missions for the modded IL2 versions, most missions are made for the vanilla version to avoid the problem. Yes and no. Yes because, if you build your mission with mod A, players must have the mod A. No because, if a player doesn't have the mod A, he has to download it and install it. If the mod is small and the player connexion good, in a few minutes, he can fly with its squad. But with the unlock system, you don't have anything to install, you have to spend time to unlock features. So if players don't take the time to unlock the feature, they can't play with you. So, if you have only a couple of hour by week to fly, what do you prefer, flying alone and doing something you don't like, or flying with your friends. I don't play solo game, so, for me, it will be boring to spend time to unlock features.
Rama Posted August 26, 2013 Author Posted August 26, 2013 Having unlockables doesn't make IL2BOS .../... adds to game's lifetime, adds motivation to try all content and extra interest to obtain new bits of it. This part I don't really understand.... probably because I'm not a SP career player. I can't see what additionnal motivation and extra interest unlocking stuff could bring. If I played solo career, it would be to try to "live" what pilots historically faced. And as far as I know, pilots were flying the missions they were given with the planes and equipment they were assigned in the squadron/regiment. I never heard about pilots having "gained" the right to use gun pods or gaz tanks or to remove the armored plates behind the seat by achieving some objectives and gaining the necessary number of points while flying missions... but again, that's me. Maybe you're right, and this kind of arfificial RPG feature may bring some additionnal motivation and interest to the game for some solo players that are not really interest with the simple challenge to survive and achieve their duties in an hostile and dangerous environnement (I can accept not understanding everything...). But I still have 2 questions: - what benefit is there for someone almost only interested in MP to have to unlock mods and planes in solo career? It won't give him any extra motivation nor interest, so what the benefit hor him? - what benefit is there for pure or mostly solo player to have MP players obliged to unlock mods and planes in solo career? They don't play MP anyway, so there will be no competition between them and MP players. Don't get me wrong, maybe there is some benefit in one or both case, but I fail to see it, so could you give me some insight? Some players will certainly try to build coop-like missions in the dogfight mode, even if coop mode will not be available at game launch. Because this is what they want to experience and what gave them their best emotions and souvenirs of the first IL2 game. I think they can live withtout a specific coop mode, since the FMB is powerfull enough to build coop-like mission they can enjoy... but if you bring them more restrictions with unlockable stuff, it will be an additionnal problem not easy to solve. For them, it wont be "additionnal motivation and extra interest", but I guess less motivation and interest. Maybe these players interest are not the first priority... but please, don't ignore their expectations. In short... I beg you to avoid to ignore the old IL2 dinosaurs... 3
Foobar Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Don't you guys think it would be smart to wait until you know exactly wich items have to be unlocked before starting such kind of discussion?
Habu Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 The problem is not what we have to unlock, but the the unlock system itself. Read the last post of Rama and mine. We don't play solo game, but solo game will have an influence on MP mode with the unlock system. Do you think that because i will have to play solo to unlock anything for the MP, i will begin to love solo. No, it's and will be still boring for me. And with time, my interrest and motivation for the game will be erode, and game wiil stay on my shelf taking dust. 1
III/JG53Frankyboy Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Don't you guys think it would be smart to wait until you know exactly wich items have to be unlocked before starting such kind of discussion? some are already clear: Bf109F-4: Gunpods Bombs droptank remove Headarmour armoured windshield LaGG-3: 23mm 37mm Bombs rockets the 5. i cant remember Il-2: reargunner ( not for premium users) 23mm 37mm Rockets the 5. i cant remember interesting will be what mods the bombers or the Ju87 will get, hopfully they didnt set themselves under stress by wanting 5 items for every plane.... Anyway, Jason said they will make this this way for NOW. if the long betaphase will show "proplems" , he is ok with overthinking this all. So we will see. 1
Rama Posted August 27, 2013 Author Posted August 27, 2013 Don't you guys think it would be smart to wait until you know exactly wich items have to be unlocked before starting such kind of discussion? You think it would be smart to wait until every little detail is writen in stonne before discussing it? I think the exact contrary. Thank's to the devs, we allready have information about items that should be unlockables, 2 planes (BF109-G2, Yak-1) and some items like certain guns, gunpods, armor plates, etc... we don't need more to discuss about it. It wont make any difference if Gunpod X is unlockable and if Gunpod Y is not. With the allready given information, I allready know that I wont be able to fly the Yak 1 in MP if I don't unlock it through the solo career. What's the benefit for me and the other players? In what way will the game motivate me more and interest me more by forbiding me to use the Yak 1 in MP if I don't unlock it through the solo career? This question can be asked (and maybe answered) without further information about the details of the unlocking feature. 2
AX2 Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) I think in first time, the idea was .." Player : you will not pay for all mods or planes, You're not spending money, If you play off line you will get unlocks for free !! " A great idea for the developers, give free mod or planes . But the developers don´t think about . We are squadrons and we are grouped for team play We have friends, If we can unlocking mods in coops or multiplayer with TS It's great fun! I like fly and talk with friends, coordinate and interact in combat with mutually support and sustain each other. ...( sometimes ) Talk with friends in combat give more realism and a very different combat experience. Unlocking mods in solo career for me is Bye Bye TS and squad friends But the say we are only 5% to 10% of the community? The 90% of the community are lone wolves they only play offline.... We will be forced to claim ?… let us pay any planes and mods! This is a strategic move ? Edited August 27, 2013 by Mustang
leitmotiv Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 If only we could play this online single campaigns in BoS together with at least 2-8 tm8s and pass it like that, more fun for all
VeryOldMan Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 yea figures you cant bother to play SP but harp on MP? your just lazy! Quite some of us simply do not want to bother with AI. If a plane is only unlocked trough SP, then I will never fly it. Unless you need to fly a single mission for that.
Spinach_Monster Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 BOS is primarily a single-player game. Not some kind of MMO. So it's quite logical that modifications will be unlocked in SP.
Matt Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) I'm honestly not sure why the SP-only faction has anything against it, if people who want to play MP-only could unlock those mods in MP (or use them without unlocking or being able to pay to unlock them or whatever). SP-only people will not benefit in any way if the MP-only will be forced to play the carreer mode or vice versa, because they'll simply never meet them in BoS. Quite the contrary, if you could unlock those mods by paying for them, that would mean that there would be an additional income for the devs to improve SP. Edited August 29, 2013 by hq_Matt 3
VeryOldMan Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 BOS is primarily a single-player game. Not some kind of MMO. So it's quite logical that modifications will be unlocked in SP. Not being an MMO doe snot imply its made to be played in single player. I and several othe rpeople find ZERo chanalge, fun or entretainment fighting an AI that has no hope of competing with a player unless cheating (and no this will not the THE GAME that makes an AI convincing and as good as a human player.. doign that cost alone more than doing the whole game)
AX2 Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Quite the contrary, if you could unlock those mods by paying for them, that would mean that there would be an additional income for the devs to improve SP. +1 exact ! If they forbiden me get unlocks in MP... Then I want pay for all mods and planes, But.. We go where they want .. OK They won Please accept my money, I want to pay !!! Edited August 29, 2013 by Mustang
leitmotiv Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 I never thought that I will have this kind of problems, thinking that i need to unlock something for my airplane by passing campaigns, in simulation game. I always thought this is something for arcade games only so player is pushed to play more with tricks. In simulation for me in campaigns is enough to know i'll get some kind of promotion, medal and good story as reward and my love to WW2 airplanes and theme keeps me playing more and long time. it's good to know that team is open to redesign this idea
Spinach_Monster Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Not being an MMO doe snot imply its made to be played in single player. Well... in my opinion it does but maybe we just have a different point of view on video and computer games in general.
Rama Posted August 29, 2013 Author Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Well... in my opinion it does Well, if we forget about opinions and try to find a definition for a precise understanding, Wikipedia gives one: A MMO (Abreviation of MMOG) is a massive multiplayer game wich can be played only through internet with connection to game servers and featuring a persistent virtual world. Some flight combat simulations that may meet these criterias are Aces High, World of Warplanes, etc... CFS, IL2 or DCS series don't fit with these criterias (and are not listed as MMO games), and still allows multiplayer in specific (non-MMO) modes. The problem with the unlocking feature is a concern only for these modes. This has nothing to do with an hypothetic "MMO vs SP" antagonism. Edited August 29, 2013 by Rama
Spinach_Monster Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Well, if we forget about opinions and try to find a definition for a precise understanding, Wikipedia gives one: A MMO (Abreviation of MMOG) is a massive multiplayer game wich can be played only through internet with connection to game servers and featuring a persistent virtual world. Some flight combat simulations that may meet these criterias are Aces High, World of Warplanes, etc... CFS, IL2 or DCS series don't fit with these criterias (and are not listed as MMO games), and still allows multiplayer in specific (non-MMO) modes. The problem with the unlocking feature is a concern only for these modes. This has nothing to do with an hypothetic "MMO vs SP" antagonism. Well, people can not be 100% objective and will always think about their own opinion. All i was trying to say is that the SP is the major part of BOS in my opinion. If you think otherwise, it's your own opinion and im ok with that. Either way, devs will find the best way to unlock modifications for all of us. Edited August 29, 2013 by Spinach_Monster
Rama Posted August 29, 2013 Author Posted August 29, 2013 Well, people can not be 100% objective and will always think about their own opinion. Certainly. But when using words or acronyms like MMO, it's better to refer to common definition of them instead of particular opinion on their meanings. All i was trying to say is that the SP is the major part of BOS in my opinion. If you think otherwise, it's your own opinion and im ok with that. You're probably interpreting what I say: I don't have a different opinion. The dev themthelves told us that for the release, they will focus and prioritize the SP mode, and that further developments like a specific MP coop mode will follow later and be added to the MP features if the game is successfull. I don't have any reason not to believe them (RoF history has shown us that the devs are honests and credible and that they allways do what they announced). It's absolutly not a problem for me. But it doesn't mean that some specific problems related to MP mode shouldn't be adressed, or at least highlighted for the future. Either way, devs will find the best way to unlock modifications for all of us. I guess that will all hope they find the best way for all.
VeryOldMan Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 To be frank, unlocking is a feature much closer to MMOs than to any other type of game. It gets to the concept of grinding, and I find repulsive on a game that tries to be a simulation. And all this SP crowd must remember that the Mp is one of the things that made Il2 famous and draw attention in PC gamer and other media, that helped a lot make the name of the franchise to be worth enough. A single player only game must be INCREDIBLY good to spread the word fast and surely enough to be a commercial success. Very very few SP games would get close to 1 million copies on the last years, up tot he point that most of the game industry believed that SP was DEAD, on all genres and all games should be MP if to have ANY chance to be published. Well.. that until bethesda slaped Skyrim into their faces.... But if was not for Skyrim several of the publisher would not have reviewed that politics and today ALL games under development would be funded only if they were MP. 1
Trooper117 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 It's already been stated that the single player missions will not be a 'grind to win' option. 'Unlocks' for want of a better term, are the natural progression a pilot would have during the conflict... for example, pilots flying the IL2 would start the campaign by flying the early version IL2, then as the war progresses they would end up doing a transition onto the field modified two seater. After some time, an official two seat version from the factory was produced and pilots then moved onto that version. Nothing about 'grind' there, in fact it follows reality pretty much.
Rama Posted September 3, 2013 Author Posted September 3, 2013 Maybe it would be that way in solo campaign career (I doubt it will be, since it's not how it was presented. It was said you had to achieve some objectives to unlock stuff... not that you would get them when they would be historically available to the squadron.... something that can be managed by the campaign system and doesn't need any specific unlocking feature, and even less an unlocking feature that afect not only the career, but also all the other SP and MP modes). But again, the problem is not really for the solo career it's for the other game modes. 1
Foobar Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 You think it would be smart to wait until every little detail is writen in stonne before discussing it? I think the exact contrary. No I don't. I think I will wait until I finally have the Beta in my hands and THEN I will start to discuss the issues. That's the Beta is for. Before the release in spring 2014 nothing at all will be written in stone.
VeryOldMan Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 yup, the problem is. People want to install game, jump in MP without ever touching SP and be able to use all stuff in game on the MP arena .
Allons Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 yup, the problem is. People want to install game, jump in MP without ever touching SP and be able to use all stuff in game on the MP arena . Thats why i voted for "like it" because this behaviour i would dislike, second i like the idea of having something in advantage (unlocked features) as a reward for spending time and energy with the game and its features. Why let a guy fly a fighter bomber in a mission if i dont know he knows at least how to arm/disarm a bomb? Best, Allons!
leitmotiv Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) i would bet guys playing MP spend more time playing with game or in game why would you care if some guy you dont know knows to arm/disarm bomb in MP or SP, on the other hand if hes in your Squad then you would teach him no need forcing him to play SP campaign for X amount of hours and making him lose those hours he could spend playing with you and tm8s online Could be even worse if they allow this unlocks to be unlocked by playing in MP like in arcade games Edited September 3, 2013 by Yaklover
HeavyCavalrySgt Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 It really depends on how it is implemented, as one of the early posters commented - we don't have enough information. I have seen unlocking mechanisms in games that made no sense at all, like soldiers buying their own gear as though they were mercenaries, or doing something to unlock a change that has nothing to do with the change itself. Irrational stuff like "You got a kill in one career, so the crew chief in another career can repaint your airplane." would really annoy me, or "You completed your third mission so mechanics have figured out how to use that mysterious arc welder and now you have a big heavy steel plate on the back of your seat, and they are sharing that knowledge with all other mechanics past, present and future". On the other hand, I wouldn't mind having to pass a standalone aerial gunnery training to be qualified to ride as a gunner in MP or demonstrate some ability to drop bombs before manning up as a bombardier, because that is really testing me as a player, not my in game character. Finally if the unlocks apply to things in SP, makes sure it relates to the story line. For example, if I am with a certain squadron and I survive past a certain date, then we have different aircraft available because that is when it happened in reality.
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