Ditching in the field is now too sensitive.

[CUJO_1970]

14 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Yeah, I could probably have written more clearly - I assumed that was the point you were getting across. 

 

I've not got a source right now, but from what I recall reading, it wasn't that rare for apparently survivable belly landings where the aircraft was largely undamaged to prove fatal simply because the pilot hadn't tightened his straps enough, resulting in head-to-gunsight impact. And there are a lot of other factors that come into play, making it something of a lottery. 

 

 

Looking at and reading about crash reports - this is a major factor in survival.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

P-38 Frontwheel failure shouldn't cause the plane to flip over!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

P-38 shouldn't blow in half all the time either but who's listening?

 

[=420=Syphen]

https://v.redd.it/kcyg5ju9abh81

 

Ground loop death. 

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, =420=Syphen said:

https://v.redd.it/kcyg5ju9abh81

 

Ground loop death. 

LOL this is a joke, and ppl still defend that its how it works in real life... atleast well get correct stars no one asked about or knew they are not correct

[No.23_Gaylion]

His shoulder straps were defective and broke causing him to strike his head. Come on guys, you need to use your imagination and be a bit more immersed. 

 

/sarcasm

 

Just ground loop better.

 

/not sarcasm

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

9 hours ago, =420=Syphen said:

https://v.redd.it/kcyg5ju9abh81

 

Ground loop death. 

 It's obvious that the propeller dug into the ground, catching a stone and flinging it with high velocity right into the pilot's temple like a heavy-caliber bullet.  

You forgot the first rule of aviation:  A pilot's worst enemy is the ground. ?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

His ground loop appraoch was wrong.

[CUJO_1970]

Best practice for surviving in real life was first to have your plane shot up by return fire from B-17s, then crash through a concrete wall before walking away like Bernhard Kunze did here:

 

If you wanna flip all the way over and live to make your friends dig you out like Karl Schulz did, make sure you got some snow to cushion your landing:

 

[JG1_Shadepiece]

Seems like the amount of pilot kills increased a crazy amount since this update too. Everyone I talk to says 7/10 kills or deaths are from an instant pilot kill.

 

Started a new thread to avoid hijacking this one:

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by ACG_Shadepiece

[PB0_Roll]

So far the only answer from devs I've read that could be related to this problem was (memory quote) "we will fix the damage model when we have time, currently we don't" (end memory quote), nothing specifically related to how fragile pilots became a few patches back.

 

Have you read anything anywhere that could give us a little hint of hope ?

 

I almost stopped playing the game while waiting for a fix.

Edited February 16, 2022 by PB0_Roll

[messsucher]

After testing this issue both offline and online I did not find anything to be wrong. It is harder to crash land now, as it should be, since before you were able to literally smash to aircraft on the ground and walk away with it. There was no drama in landings. Now you can actually die if you do a bad landing, which is great. But if you do a good landing I did not find any problems. In my opinion crash landings are now fine, better than ever, if we forget those vids where good landings resulted because maybe a bug to a pilot kill.

 

Here is my obligatory crash landing video as a tester wannabee.

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Cool. Thanks for the video.

 

Now we just need videos showing someone flip a plane over or crash into a wall or have their aircraft break apart on hard belly landing and be able to survive like happened all the time in real life, so we know simulation is working properly.

[messsucher]

9 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Cool. Thanks for the video.

 

Now we just need videos showing someone flip a plane over or crash into a wall or have their aircraft break apart on hard belly landing and be able to survive like happened all the time in real life, so we know simulation is working properly.

 

Haha, maybe it did not happen all the time. But while at it, then make it so that the pilot can die while parachuting out, which happened too, for example Marseille died so.

[CUJO_1970]

19 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

Haha, maybe it did not happen all the time. But while at it, then make it so that the pilot can die while parachuting out, which happened too, for example Marseille died so.

 

This is a valid point...you could have chance to hit stabilizer like Marseille did - it did happen to pilots on many occasions.

 

I bet it would make a lot of players mad though, lol.

[No105_Swoose]

There is definitely something wrong and I hope the Developers will look at it.  Case-in-point:  I was attempting to land my Spitfire Mk.IXe at Volkel Air Field.  The Spitfire is a tricky aircraft to land.  I crossed the threshold at about 120 mph IAS and prepared to flare out for a 3-point landing.  Instead of starting the flare, my nose dropped suddenly and I "pranged" the propellor.  That was immediately followed by a message "No105_Swoose has been killed" and the view changed from cockpit view to external "Spectate" view.  The sad part is that I watched my aircraft proceed to make a fairly decent touchdown and roll straight down the runway!  No problems with the often delicate Spitfire landing gear.  It eventually lost speed, turned off the runway, and stopped.  I suppose the bump of the prang could have caused my pilot to break his neck depending on how he was situated.  But I've had other touchdowns like this before where I wrecked the prop but otherwise the plane was OK....and survived to fight another day.  It's very frustrating.  I wish I had made a video of it.

Edited February 18, 2022 by No105_Swoose
added decent between fairly and touchdown

[jdoe33]

I feel so much what so many people have written but we need to understand that the devs don't care about any of what we're proving them is broken. Adding anything further is a waste of your time. They don't care about the community, especially not MP. Adding anything to this discussion is pointless because they won't even ACKNOWLEDGE all of your valid criticism about an obviously broken mechanic. They're not able to properly fix many underlying issues with the game such as the broken hit registry, damage model, ground object durabilities, game engine performance related to AI, netcode etc. etc. This is just 1 more small indiciation that they don't know how to fix their own game and is proof that their core is basically spaghetti code that nobody inside their team knows how to deal with. At this point you're looking at a software team that is providing hack fix after hack fix and you can tell by the state the game is in that it's getting worse and not better. 

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:29 AM, messsucher said:

 

Haha, maybe it did not happen all the time. But while at it, then make it so that the pilot can die while parachuting out, which happened too, for example Marseille died so.

Adding some RNG to bailing out for an increased sense of realism would be frustrating unless more control is given to bail-outs IMO.

So for example, if you have to actually hit buttons in a proper sequence and timing depending on the attitude of your plane (like in real life, where you have to unbuckle your belts, eject the canopy, properly roll out of the plane, and then pull the ripcord at the right time), it becomes another simulation and skill matter.

If it's just "OOPS you hit the tail! Sorry!" that would be very frustrating IMO.



Re: ditching/crashing

It feels to me from reading this thread, reading a lot about WWII and WWII aviation, and playing the game, that ditching is both too sensitive and not "random" enough. I think on average we should be able to survive much worse crashes with a "pilot wounded" message, but also this should be more random to the point of maybe 1 out of 100 times that you smash into the dirt at 200+ miles an hour you get "lucky" and live the way things happen in real life; vice versa, occasionally relatively minor crashes result in death. Real life is crazy, and full of chance and luck. If the game was exactly realistic, people would be screeching about how a pilot shouldn't survive a fall from 20k feet with no parachute etc. when that has literally happened; many people have died slipping in the shower which seems like significantly less violence than crash-landing an airplane.

Generally RNG with no skill expression feels frustrating in games, but I think making pilots significantly tougher to the forces of crashes/landings while also adding an RNG component to injury would make a more "realistic" feeling crash mechanic. Of course, we all know that the dev team has struggled with COVID restrictions and has about 800 other things on their plate, including new planes for Normandy, the fuel system update, hopefully a DM overhaul where we finally get the proper ammunition for allied planes, more complex engine systems, etc. etc. so I don't expect them to add an entirely new feature just to make our crashes feel more like real life. The simple solution would be to just revert the crash-landing PK change until they have time to properly look at what's causing the unfortunate deaths from very light crashes or even (as outlined by several of you) hard 3-point landings that don't even result in damage to the plane.

 

[357th_KW]

Revert to the old setup where you could belly land at 300mph on rough terrain and walk away every time?  No thanks.  It just needs a little tweak to where a soft crash landing or ground loop is no longer fatal.

[Enceladus828]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:51 AM, -332FG-Zephyr096 said:

It feels to me from reading this thread, reading a lot about WWII and WWII aviation, and playing the game, that ditching is both too sensitive and not "random" enough. I think on average we should be able to survive much worse crashes with a "pilot wounded" message, but also this should be more random to the point of maybe 1 out of 100 times that you smash into the dirt at 200+ miles an hour you get "lucky" and live the way things happen in real life

Agree. A year ago it was perhaps slightly too forgiving and there were some crashes which were mostly likely fatal in actuality, but right now the right landing gear of a Yak-1 running over sandbags at 100 km/h while on landing being instantly fatal, and an A-20 grazing the top of a tree which causes only the right aileron to break off with no damage to any other part of the A-20 and it continues flying normally, yet this instantly kills the bombardier, Top and Ventral gunners, and seriously injures the pilot shows that this is a bug/issue that needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

I just hope that the devs can fix this issue in like the next update or at least address it. This bug/issue has caused me to move on to other games like CloD, IL-2 1946, WoFF, etc., with Tank scenarios being the only time that I load up IL-2 GBs. When the devs fix this then I'll come back to flying in GBs. 

[anwhitmore]

So, the Devs have spent all this effort in improving (?) the simulation by tweaking the pilot death on belly landing parameters but they wont fix the glaringly obvious irregularities in the single player AI behaviour.

Don't get me wrong. This is a simulator so realism is the main point of this game. I get that and I appreciate that immensely, but, let me recant an all too often scenario.

 

So you are escorting your JU88's who, despite them having a cruise speed of around 280mph are barely doing 280kph. You are out in front, at 3000m scouting, in your F2 or MC202 and a group of (amazingly 6 every time and at 500m higher than you regardless) Mig3's arrive. Clearly they have come from 10,000m as their speed is maxed out and they make a bee line for YOU, totally ignoring your escort friends and the JU88's. So you begin to weave and dodge (appreciating the devs efforts as they have clearly done this to give you a challenge) and the Migs hone in on you with the collective "Drag and Bag" ability of the "Borg" out of Star Trek. So you drag them down to , say 1000m, simply trying to avoid getting hit , even once (because, let us face it, any damage to the airframe makes it damn near impossible to fly the plane, let alone continue the fight, amazingly enough, the "Borg" seem to be able to keep dog fighting regardless of how much damage you do to them). Meanwhile your team mates have all decided to attack just 1 of the 6 Migs and they are busily weaving and dodging around that one target, spraying bullets like they have unlimited ammo and not hitting a bloody thing. You shake off the other 5 Migs to see that 2 of them have managed to retain enough energy to not only climb back up to the bomber height but to race , unmolested, to the JU88's and scream into the rear of them and take 1 or 2 out without receiving a scratch.  Eventually you climb back up to the bombers and chase the Migs off but your escort mates are nowhere to be seen and the Migs have used their insane speed advantage to clear out.

 

This is sort of bearable , in a way, as you just have to accept that AI programming is not at all easy. I should know, I am a programmer or 30 years and converting the shear human processing ability of a brain into decision making in a computer is very complex and very difficult, but what adds insult to injury is this.

 

While attempting to shoot down the enemy AI, who have this uncanny ability to predict exactly when your gun sight is about to cross them , they "jig" and "weave" but still you managed to get some good hits on them and they start shedding parts. First the flaps (which always seem to be held on with cable ties) come flying by and then its an elevator or rudder, which hits you smack in the prop, bending it to shit and stopping the engine.

 

Ahhh! bugger!

 

No worries, I will land or belly land it.. Oh damn, I am over enemy territory, 0% chance of evading capture (but I am right next to the front.. too bad sunshine...capture).. or, oh, I am over friendly territory, I will dead stick it to that open field and land it on its wheel (Nah! Death).

 

OK, I will belly land it (Nah! Death)

 

What, so my only option is to bail out? But I want to save the plane as this is a simulation and surely saving the airframe is better than bailing out and letting it plough into the ground and be a complete write off.

 

Nope, Bail out sunshine and prey you don't hit a tree (as that is death too). If you want to save your career forget completely about saving the aircraft as a belly landing will result in only 2 outcomes. If it is extremely gentle you will survive with no injuries otherwise you will die (what happened to the ability to land hard and receive injuries, that option appears to not exists anymore).

 

As a real pilot myself I realise that the best place to dead stick and aircraft in this game is: an airfield, a road, or a frozen river. Airfields are rare, roads always seem to be surrounded by trees and frozen rivers are seasonal. I have managed to dead stick on a frozen river and an airfield but forget about roads and fields... death.

 

Dev's. I know it may not be 100% realistic but would you please return us to the original settings where ditching wasn't more fatal than being shot at... please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by anwhitmore

[Knarley-Bob]

Yup, come in wounded. Fought off the bad guys that way. Landed at bomber field after quite a flight. Wheels touched, no bounce, pilot dead. Must have finally bled to death??

 

And no, I'm sending no files to anyone.............

Edited March 12, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[Garven]

Perfect off field landing pilot killed on slight bump before rolling to a stop.  

[CUJO_1970]

^^ and so many still saying “working as intended”.

 

This, despite so much evidence to the contrary.

[SCG_motoadve]

8 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

^^ and so many still saying “working as intended”.

 

This, despite so much evidence to the contrary.

Take offs and landings are super easy in IL2 , at least lets have ditchings that penalizes sloppy flying, and rewards good technique.  

[CUJO_1970]

2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Take offs and landings are super easy in IL2 , at least lets have ditchings that penalizes sloppy flying, and rewards good technique.  

 

I agree about takeoffs and landings.

 

I strongly disagree about ditching, for the following reasons:

 

(1) The sim does not reward good technique, but will go right ahead and kill you many times even if you do everything right - like make a soft wheels down landing in a field - and you are now dead. What the sim rewards is not good technique - it rewards a technique of sorts, where if you follow certain game criteria you might survive.

 

(2) There is tremendous data from real world actual examples, from the real world actual aircraft this sim models - many real world actual examples of survival in this thread - that will kill you 100% of the time in the sim.

 

It is not even close to realistic. It is not even close to being plausible the way the sim currently models ditching. You have to completely ignore reality and real world examples - and I mean completely dismiss them altogether - in order to make believe the sim handles these well at all.

[ITAF_Gerry_Lil_Rocket]

I really don't understand Dev's objective when they "corrected" so heavily ditching/belly/landings parameters.....before it tolerated too much pilot's abuses and mistakes but now it's definitely too much sensitive.  I'm real life Helo pilot and during my 30 years+ flying career all flying instructors I had dealing with told me "if you save the machine you save your life". So why if I land and the plane is intact rolling over the runway the pilot is dead? Can a tough landing kill the pilot? My answer is yes but not so often as happen now in IL2. Maybe the parameters decreasing pilot physical health have to start when the damages to the aircraft are becoming "severe"? .....I really don't have an answer but IMHO Dev's have to "rewind a little bit the tape" .

[Enceladus828]

Timeline of events regarding the pilot's survivability during a crash landing in this game:

 

November 2013 (when Early access started for BoS) to Update 3.201 (September 2019) when the pilot physiology model was added: crashes and belly landings were very survivable and high speed belly landings at a considerably high rate of descent in an open field and flying through trees were pretty forgiving with the pilot in these latter situations occasionally being injured but not killed. Let's not forget ground looping and the wing hitting a tree, the wing of another aircraft, and a hangar also being survivable. Overall, crashes that didn't destroy the plane (in an explosion) and end the mission were very survivable.

 

Update 3.201 (September 2019) to Update 4.605 (late October 2021) : crashes and belly landings were survivable with the pilot mostly being uninjured, but for high speed belly landings at a considerably high rate of descent and flying through trees, there was a greater chance of the pilot being seriously injured or killed; ground loops, an aircraft wing hitting a tree, another aircraft, and hangar were still survivable. While the pilot's survivability may have been slightly too forgiving, this is the most realistic depiction of pilot survivability during a crash landing in IL-2 Great Battles

 

Update 4.605 (which also happens to be when the AQMB was added ) to present: crashes and belly landings, even ones at slow speeds and very low rate of descent in an open field are almost always fatal for the pilot and the crew. Rarely is the pilot and crew injured or seriously injured, it goes straight from uninjured to fatal. Ground looping, an aircraft wing hitting a tree, another aircraft, and hangar are usually fatal. This also involves tanks: The pilot ditch issue is also affecting tanks... - Technical Issues and Bug Reports - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com)

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Enceladus
added some details

[Hitcher]

the ground roughness feature has alot to do with it, apart from airfields, frozen lakes, roads etc all the fields are really bumpy and uneven, if you survive the initial impact the bumps are usually what kills you.

strangely enough if you hit the ground wing first and spin you are more likely to survive.

something is clearly wrong.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Hitcher

[-332FG-Cue-Ball]

Twice in the last three weeks I've had my pilot die from another plane taxiing into mine at walking speed. As soon as the other plane hit mine, instant pilot death. So this isn't just about hard belly landings. I've also experienced pilot death during a hard landing, but one in which my pilot had no other injuries and the plane was fine and even continued to taxi. The tires didn't even blow out, the plane didn't lose any parts, it kept right on rolling, but somehow the force of the landing killed my pilot. This "feature" is broken, like many other things in this sim.

[357th_KW]

From looking at 357th FG loss records, no pilots were lost in crashes at Leiston in late 44 or 45 except for two that collided with each other, so this pilot almost surely survived.

 

[JLean]

Thats it I will complain also. 

Today I was taking off with Ju 88. After gathering some speed... got on sideways (my mistake)...landing gear broke down and plane spun at runaway 180. I did not hit anything....pilot killed speed in less than 80km/h.   ...or maybe I forgot to put seat belts. What is key binding for it?

Realistic: I doubt.

Gaming experince: definetly not.

 

Please do something.

 

 JLean 

[Mtnbiker1998]

All this debate and turns out it was never even intended, it was a bug the whole time..

 

Crew DM: a random error that could cause a death from mild G-loads has been found and fixed, thus improving survivability rate during emergency landings.

 

Theres something to be said there about blindly accepting things as correct just because its in the "simulator"

[Hook_Echo]

13 hours ago, CheshireKitten said:

 

 

Im curious... so this BUG  was actually fixed?  When it came out i was trying to learn how to fly and land a P-38. For some reason i became really good at using my parachute.

Yeah it's fixed. Belly landings are no problem now. I can't remember the last time I died in a belly landing. The old days trained me to land very gently, so that's still ingrained in me. I mostly play single missions, but like you in my career I would fly back to friendly lines and bail.

[Enceladus828]

Watched this @Renzic video and the landing kills the pilot but the plane isn't even damaged by the landing and rollout.

 

 

[Enceladus828]

Also with this instance too, a landing causing the left gear strut to break off wouldn't instantly kill the two pilots with the rest of the Ju-52 remaining intact apart from a wheel and a few control surfaces: