i9 12900K and IL-2

[BlackMambaMowTin]

Hi, 

 

I bought an i9 12900K but I'm stuck waiting to find some DDR5 memory. My current CPU is  a 9700K @ stock paired with an EVGA 3090 FTW3. 

 

I skipped 10th and 11th gen because the bump didn't seem significant. 

 

The single core benchmarks indicate that the 12900K should be 60% faster than my 9700K. 

 

Is the CPU the major bottleneck in IL-2? I saw a major improvement going from 6700k to 9700k. 

Will I finally get my 90fps?

[Charlo-VR]

I would expect so, yes, especially if you overclock it. I average in the mid 80s FPS in the Finnish MP server with SteamVR application setting at 74%, and not using FSR. You can see in my signature I'm using a 10700K at 5.1GHz.

 

From what I have read the reviewers do not yet see much of a boost from DDR4 to DDR5, but IL-2 is known to prefer fast RAM, so perhaps that'll make a difference.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Charlo-VR

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

Congratulations on your upgrade.  Re: CPU vs GPU bottleneck. That really depends on what resolution and refresh rates you are running your games at. If 4k and below, at 60 Hz the RTX 3090 would/should not be the bottleneck.   Running a HP Reverb G2 at high graphic settings at 90 Hz would cause the GPU to bottleneck and some graphics settings compromises would be required to max out frame rates. 

 

Hopefully you get a chance (once you obtain the missing bits) to run and post some Syn Vander benchmark results.

[chiliwili69]

Congrats.

For the CPUs, the benchmark we should look at is the Single-thread performance.

There is already a handful of tests done and they look promising, the i5-12600K looks good price wise:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

 

You new motherboard would probably support DDR4 as well, so until you get the new DDR5 you could test IL-2 with DDR4 just to see how well the new chip does.

You can run the SYN_VANDER Benchmark

11 hours ago, BlackMambaMowTin said:

Is the CPU the major bottleneck in IL-2?

 

It depends on the frequency of your headset (80Hz better than 90Hz) but also on the number of AI objects in the scene. When you are in a scene with more than 20-30 planes/tanks/etc then the CPU start to be bottlenecked.

 

It also depends on certain graphics settings, specially shadows and mirrors.

[-332FG-Gordon200]

6 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

until you get the new DDR5 you could test IL-2 with DDR4 just to see how well the new chip does.

DDR4 and DDR5 memory are not interchangeable. They both have 288 pins but are arranged differently.

 

 

[chiliwili69]

5 minutes ago, QB.Gordon200 said:

DDR4 and DDR5 memory are not interchangeable. They both have 288 pins but are arranged differently.

 

I see, I didn´t know it.

 

It seems that the new motherboards for the Intel 12th generation can support one or the other.  It will be then interesting to know if the DDR4 vs DDR5 plays a role in IL-2.

So people can decide to buy Mobo with DDR4 or Mobo with DDR5.

 

https://whatifgaming.com/best-z690-motherboards/

 

[Voyager]

Yes. From what I've been hearing there are motherboards that support DDR4 and one's that support DDR5, but not both. 

 

Anandtech did a deep dive in Alder lake and the differences between it's memory system. For Il-2, if we believe it is memory latency sensitive, we may not see much difference between DDR4 and DDR5: 

 

CPU Tests: Core-to-Core and Cache Latency, DDR4 vs DDR5 MLP - The Intel 12th Gen Core i9-12900K Review: Hybrid Performance Brings Hybrid Complexity
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17047/the-intel-12th-gen-core-i912900k-review-hybrid-performance-brings-hybrid-complexity/6

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, Voyager said:

Yes. From what I've been hearing there are motherboards that support DDR4 and one's that support DDR5, but not both. 

 

 

 

That is correct. A motherboard will not run both.

[chiliwili69]

As I read these new 12th gen is incorporating a number of P-cores (performance) and another number of E-cores (Efficiency).

 

But the E-Cores has to be disabled if you want to use AVX512 instructions (since they are suported in P-cores).

 

I have heard in the past that IL-2 uses AVX intructions, but don´t know if particularly the AVX512. does anybody know that?

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17047/the-intel-12th-gen-core-i912900k-review-hybrid-performance-brings-hybrid-complexity/2

[Voyager]

6 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

As I read these new 12th gen is incorporating a number of P-cores (performance) and another number of E-cores (Efficiency).

 

But the E-Cores has to be disabled if you want to use AVX512 instructions (since they are suported in P-cores).

 

I have heard in the past that IL-2 uses AVX intructions, but don´t know if particularly the AVX512. does anybody know that?

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17047/the-intel-12th-gen-core-i912900k-review-hybrid-performance-brings-hybrid-complexity/2

I don't believe it uses AVX512. The 11th gen had it and had it enabled, but I think it was the first consumer CPU to have it. 

[BlackMambaMowTin]

Well, still stuck waiting for some DDR5 ram to be available. It's pretty frustrating but what can you do? 

 

I was tempted to just return the mobo and get a DDR4 motherboard but I know I'll regret it later when DDR 7000 or 8000 comes out later. 

[NiiranenVR]

A CPU ... Whats most important ? 

I? Vs number vs ? Hz          in GB 

 

I have a i5 9600 at 5.2 hz ( water cooling ) 

The new I9'er can oc to 5.2 also 

Same as mine so ?

 

[BlackMambaMowTin]

9 hours ago, J5_NiiranenVR-Gfr said:

A CPU ... Whats most important ? 

I? Vs number vs ? Hz          in GB 

 

I have a i5 9600 at 5.2 hz ( water cooling ) 

The new I9'er can oc to 5.2 also 

Same as mine so ?

 

 

Processors can have different IPC -- Instructions Per Cycle 

Recently frequency hasn't been increasing but new architectures have allowed for more instructions to be executed per cycle. Alder Lake has a 19% IPC improvement over 11th generation. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

4 hours ago, BlackMambaMowTin said:

 

Processors can have different IPC -- Instructions Per Cycle 

Recently frequency hasn't been increasing but new architectures have allowed for more instructions to be executed per cycle. Alder Lake has a 19% IPC improvement over 11th generation. 

Exactly.

 

Set a Ryzen 5900X against an Intel of the 10xxx-generation, and you have up to 30% higher IPC in single-thread applications due to the better die construction.

 

To give you an idea:

 

Ryzen 5900X at default boost (4.75GHz) is on average 6% faster than Intel i9 10900K at its max taken boost (5.3GHz) on single-core speed. And with an inbuilt technology called PBO you can have the Ryzen auto-OC itself based on demand, up to 4.95GHz - in some cases higher.

 

That's almost 600MHz difference, yet it is faster, which confuses a lot of people, who then falsely "buy the higher number".

22 hours ago, J5_NiiranenVR-Gfr said:

I have a i5 9600 at 5.2 hz ( water cooling ) 

The new I9'er can oc to 5.2 also 

Same as mine so ?

You'd need to reach 6.4GHz on your Coffee Lake to match my 5900X's performance clocking at 4.95GHz... not to boast, just to put things into perspective.

 

So, it is important you look for Single-Core clock benchmarks before you buy a CPU. If you do not need Thunderbolt, you're good to go with Ryzen 5800X or 5900X. 

 

Just make sure you get the replacement cable / version 2 cable from HP Reverb G2. It's working fine only with the cable.

 

P.S. I am running everything on Windows 11 Pro and it's working fine (everything but fpsVR that just posted a false news item on Steam).

Edited November 12, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Remontti]

What the...?!

I totally missed that there were new Intels. I just upgraded my i6700K to amd 5800X week ago. And now it is... obsolete?

Edited November 12, 2021 by Remontti
Typo

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, Remontti said:

What the...?!

I totally missed that there were new Intels. I just upgraded my i6700K to amd 5800X week ago. And now it is... obsolete?

 

And that will almost always be the case when doing new builds...

Enjoy what you have no need to try and stay on top. I plan on getting 1-2 more years out of this z390 i9 9900k build. It runs well enough still for my enjoyment.

[Remontti]

Just now, dburne said:

 

And that will almost always be the case when doing new builds...

Enjoy what you have no need to try and stay on top. I plan on getting 1-2 more years out of this z390 i9 9900k build. It runs well enough still for my enjoyment.

At least there was no need for new PSU?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

3 hours ago, Remontti said:

What the...?!

I totally missed that there were new Intels. I just upgraded my i6700K to amd 5800X week ago. And now it is... obsolete?

BS 

The 5800X runs IL-2 at 90Hz without throttling.

 

Your limit to max gfx is only the GPU now.

Edited November 12, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Capt_Hook]

I'm still running a 3900x.  Anxiously awaiting IL2 benchmarks with the new Intel procs to see if it's time to upgrade.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

6 minutes ago, Capt_Hook said:

I'm still running a 3900x.  Anxiously awaiting IL2 benchmarks with the new Intel procs to see if it's time to upgrade.

You will see a big jump from a 3900x to an Alder Lake chip in IL-2 performance. Probably close to 50% to be honest.

[BlackMambaMowTin]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:10 PM, dburne said:

 

And that will almost always be the case when doing new builds...

Enjoy what you have no need to try and stay on top. I plan on getting 1-2 more years out of this z390 i9 9900k build. It runs well enough still for my enjoyment.

 

If he bought it a week ago then it does kind of suck that something both cheaper and better was released after his purchase. 

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-i5-12600k-vs-amd-ryzen-5-5600x-ryzen-7-5800x-cpu-face-off

 

If it was just a week, I would return it. 

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:04 AM, Remontti said:

What the...?!

I totally missed that there were new Intels. I just upgraded my i6700K to amd 5800X week ago. And now it is... obsolete?

The 5800x is a good CPU so really not so obsolete. More than happy with the performance of mine.

 

You would have the option to fit one of the Ryzen V-Cache CPU to the same motherboard as used by the 5800x, in the near future, if you need that extra 0 - 5% that a i12900K may deliver for games like IL2 (at higher resolutions & fps). While no one currently knows how the Ryzen V-Cache will perform with games like IL2 & DCS i suspect that it stands a good chance of getting the performance crown back for substantially single threaded games.

 

As per SCG_Fenrys_Wulf's comment, if you are running a VR headset like the Reverb G2 at high/ultra settings, the GPU is going to be a roadblock anyway.

 

If you do decide to keep the 5800x, recommend researching CPU undervolting for it. Is really easy to do and get a modest but useful performance gain.

 

[Remontti]

Actually I'm quite pleased how 5800x performs. I was just surprised that I had missed this new chipset. Was there hype about it?

[Jaws2002]

10 minutes ago, Remontti said:

Actually I'm quite pleased how 5800x performs. I was just surprised that I had missed this new chipset. Was there hype about it?

 

 

Yep. There were plenty leaks that hinted to pretty solid performance jump, over the last generations.

1 hour ago, RAAF492SQNOz_Steve said:

While no one currently knows how the Ryzen V-Cache will perform with games like IL2 & DCS i suspect that it stands a good chance of getting the performance crown back for substantially single threaded games.

 

 

   I wouldn't bet on finding one of the upcoming AMD cpus, at normal prices any time soon.

 There's a new crypto currency, Raptorium, that is very profitable on CPUs with large cache.  Ryzen 9 CPUs are better than the new Adler lake CPUs for that.

What Ryzen 6000 promises? You got it, a lot of cache. 

There are already images popping up with dozens of Zen3 CPUs slaving away in some basement.

[DBCOOPER011]

I don't see a huge jump at all in perfomance between my 5800X and 12900K, only in really congested scenarios the 12900K makes it somewhat smoother. I do see an advantage in benchmarks and in a couple other games, but not IL2 on average. I do see a huge gap in cooling though. Just got off the finnish server in VR, and was averaging 38c in CPU temps with the 12900K while the 5800X averaged 60c or so..

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

That is because the 5800X removes the CPU bottleneck in IL-2 VR with maximum details, except for extreme situations of +20 aircrafts and many ground objects --- but then you'll hit the limits of the GPU earlier. Anything more than a 5800X is unnecessary for IL-2 itself at the moment.

 

The hard cap is in the GPU. IL-2 still throttles on the RTX 3090, because of the lack of integration of modern technology like forward shade rendering + DLSS + VRSS or real FSR (we do have a barely decent substitute by fholger which is better than nothing, but it is no real anti-aliasing tech and won't remove pixelation of the cursed deferred shade rendering).

Edited November 14, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Capt_Hook]

18 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That is because the 5800X removes the CPU bottleneck in IL-2 VR with maximum details, except for extreme situations of +20 aircrafts and many ground objects --- but then you'll hit the limits of the GPU earlier. Anything more than a 5800X is unnecessary for IL-2 itself at the moment.

 

The hard cap is in the GPU. IL-2 still throttles on the RTX 3090, because of the lack of integration of modern technology like forward shade rendering + DLSS + VRSS or real FSR (we do have a barely decent substitute by fholger which is better than nothing, but it is no real anti-aliasing tech and won't remove pixelation of the cursed deferred shade rendering).

That's more what I was expecting.  Playing in VR (Reverb G2) with a 3090 and a 3900X, I'll need to see a noticeable performance bump before I upgrade.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I would like to see the difference between the ryzen 5800x and new Alder Lake chips in heavily loaded campaign scenarios.

[chiliwili69]

22 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That is because the 5800X removes the CPU bottleneck in IL-2 VR with maximum details, except for extreme situations of +20 aircrafts and many ground objects --- but then you'll hit the limits of the GPU earlier. Anything more than a 5800X is unnecessary for IL-2 itself at the moment

 

Exactly.

 

Just to know the extra CPU performance of Alder Lake over AMD 5600X/5800X/5900X we use the CPU_test of the SYN_Vander (dense scenario), and there the only test done by DBCOOPER011 show a small gain (+10fps over 130fps). But this is just for the benchmark, it is not translated to VR gain since there the 5800X is not the constraint.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:41 AM, Capt_Hook said:

That's more what I was expecting.  Playing in VR (Reverb G2) with a 3090 and a 3900X, I'll need to see a noticeable performance bump before I upgrade.

I must mention though, so we don't mix things up: The jump from 3900X to 5800X or 5900X is extreme in IL-2. 

 

The 3900X is actually a hard bottleneck in VR.

On 11/15/2021 at 9:33 AM, chiliwili69 said:

 

Exactly.

 

Just to know the extra CPU performance of Alder Lake over AMD 5600X/5800X/5900X we use the CPU_test of the SYN_Vander (dense scenario), and there the only test done by DBCOOPER011 show a small gain (+10fps over 130fps). But this is just for the benchmark, it is not translated to VR gain since there the 5800X is not the constraint.

Yep.

 

In VR there is no advantage for the Alder Lakes. You just pay more, and get the same FPS.

Edited November 16, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Capt_Hook]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:08 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I must mention though, so we don't mix things up: The jump from 3900X to 5800X or 5900X is extreme in IL-2. 

 

The 3900X is actually a hard bottleneck in VR.

There's that much of a difference?  Guess I should peruse the vader benchmarks.  OK then - time to upgrade.  

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

18 hours ago, Capt_Hook said:

There's that much of a difference?  Guess I should peruse the vader benchmarks.  OK then - time to upgrade.  

That was only regarding VR, and only if you aim at running IL-2 at ultra settings with everything flicked on. Depending on Headset you run into the GPU bottleneck anyway. 

And if you run the game at 120Hz or 90Hz in reprojection/motionsmoothing mode (halves framerate, so it'll require 60-45fps by the CPU) the 3900X will suffice anyway.

[BlackMambaMowTin]

I gave up waiting for DDR5 since I heard there was a shortage of the chip used for DDR5 and all the benchmarks showed that current gen DDR5 was a little slower than current gen DDR4. 

 

I can't say there is much of a difference. The problem is I'm playing on the G2 at 100% with pretty high settings so the GPU is the bottleneck in most places. It was hard to get a clear sense of the improvement in IL-2. 

 

I did the OpenVR Gpu VR benchmark and my fps went from 33 to 35fps on that. That's 7% but that's a pure GPU stress bench. 

 

In NMS I saw a 15 to 20% improvement. I don't know why NMS is so hard on the CPU because I still have spikes in that game. 

 

MSFS 2020, seemed unchanged. That game refuses to budge. Hardly budged with the 3090 and now with the 12900K. But I don't have a good way measure framerates with it. I was using the OpenVR frame timings which seem stuck around 33ms for both gpu and cpu. I don't know if those are reliable. That game felt pretty smooth. I just don't trust my subjective impressions. 

 

I tried Elite Dangerous and I'm still stuck around 45fps. It certainly made things a lot smoother that's for sure. Especially when I switch to on foot VR 3rd person mode. 

 

If anyone has something specific they want me to test, let me know. 

[chiliwili69]

1 hour ago, BlackMambaMowTin said:

If anyone has something specific they want me to test, let me know.

 

It would be interesting to have more tests of the 12900K with the SYN_VANDER test in IL-2:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/66924-syn_vander-benchmark-v6-to-measure-il-2-performance-in-monitor-vr/

 

[BlackMambaMowTin]

4 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

It would be interesting to have more tests of the 12900K with the SYN_VANDER test in IL-2:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/66924-syn_vander-benchmark-v6-to-measure-il-2-performance-in-monitor-vr/

 

 

Cool. When I get home from work I'll run this benchmark. 

[BlackMambaMowTin]

I tried the benchmark and I got really low disappointing number...118fps. I suspect I'm doing something wrong. I'll go over the section detailing causes of unusually low performance.

 

When do you stop the fraps benchmarks? It only says press P to start but it doesn't mention when to stop (I assume by pressing P again).

[chiliwili69]

2 hours ago, BlackMambaMowTin said:

When do you stop the fraps benchmarks? It only says press P to start but it doesn't mention when to stop (I assume by pressing P again).

 

According to a previous test of DBCOOPER01 it was around 136fps using DDR5 xmp profile at 5200MHz and tvb +2.

 

Regarding fraps, there is no need to stop fraps. You only need to press "P" once, at start. The Fraps app will automatically finish the test after 60 seconds which is the same than the mission. But you need to wait to press "P" until all buildings and objects are loaded in scene (around 15 seconds)

[=420=Syphen]

Just ordered a 12700k. Should be a nice jump from the 8700k I've been using. 

[=420=Syphen]

Got my first VR flight in with the 12700k last night. Without changing settings from my 8700k / 3070 rig, the new 12700k / 3080 Ti rig runs a pretty solid 90fps in the Reverb G2. It would dip to maybe 87-88 but a great experience.  With the 8700k / 3070, the same settings would result in a 50-80fps experience that would move around based on the scene. 

 

I'm very happy with the upgrade so far. I'm still running with half the ram out of the case till the liquid cooler for lga1700 shows up. The Vengeance Pro ram is too tall to fit under the Noctua cooler. Should have that sorted out by next week, but I don't think the jump from 32gb to 64gb of ram will make a difference for IL2. Maybe for DCS.

[C6_lefuneste]

8 minutes ago, =420=Syphen said:

Got my first VR flight in with the 12700k last night. Without changing settings from my 8700k / 3070 rig, the new 12700k / 3080 Ti rig runs a pretty solid 90fps in the Reverb G2. It would dip to maybe 87-88 but a great experience.  With the 8700k / 3070, the same settings would result in a 50-80fps experience that would move around based on the scene. 

 

I'm very happy with the upgrade so far. I'm still running with half the ram out of the case till the liquid cooler for lga1700 shows up. The Vengeance Pro ram is too tall to fit under the Noctua cooler. Should have that sorted out by next week, but I don't think the jump from 32gb to 64gb of ram will make a difference for IL2. Maybe for DCS.

Can you try to fly a "steel bird" campaign mission and notice the lowest fps you have  during the whole mission ?  If you manage to stay upper than 60 fps with "high" settings, I'll buy one ! But that means you'll win more than 40% between a 8700k and a 12700k...was your 8700k overclocked ?