Spanish Civil War - Possible Expansion?

[Winkysmith]

Hello everyone!

 

I just thought that I’d post this, after being given the idea by another member of our forum in another thread.

Anyway, I thought I’d see what you thought about a Spanish Civil War expansion, maybe in the distant future. I know that it would be a lot of work for the devs when it comes to the Spanish comms and such, but I think that it would perhaps be more feasible than say a 1943 pacific carriers expansion.

 

A few reasons that I say this:

 - There could be a rather varied planeset

 - Biplanes have already been done in this engine

 - German comms already exist

 - Has not been done in any current combat flight sim

 - A significant, not very widely-represented conflict

 

Also, I myself hardly know anything about the Spanish Civil War (who am I to talk about this, then?) and just wanted to know the opinions of you - the community - and possibly (hopefully) the devs as well.

 

Hoping this finds you all in good health,

Winkysmith

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Winkysmith
It has been done!

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Personally, I'm all for it.

But I think most of the community wouldn't be so interested 'cause they're used to play with more performing later war planes.

Maybe by a third party developer one day?

There's definitely some interesting planes in that theater.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Flying_Colander]

Count me in, Winky.

Most historians consider the Spanish Civil War the prelude to WWII. The Luftwaffe used the conflict to experiment with tactics, field test aircraft and train up pilots in the Condor Legion. The period offers an interesting aircraft set with early Messerschmitts and peak performance biplanes.

[Elem]

1 hour ago, Winkysmith said:

- Has not been done (officially, let’s not count the EAW mod) in any other combat flight sim

To repeat myself...yes it has. Luftwaffe Commander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_Commander

 

I loved it, but I would love to see this team do it too, although I do think it highly unlikely.

 

[Chief_Mouser]

Such a large number of different aircraft, almost all present in very small numbers, and at least two or maybe three maps needed to do it justice.

Not really feasible I'm afraid, even if it would be fun.

[Ribbon]

Big NO from me ?‍♂️

Only expansion i would buy next is PTO, MTO or BoB.

 

S!

[Zooropa_Fly]

The original IL2 had some SCW scenario's, may have been in one of the mod packs..

 

S!

[MajorMagee]

Quote

- Has not been done in any current combat flight sim

 

Generally true, but I'm still flying SCW missions in CFS3 using the ETO mod. It has a reasonable set of vintage aircraft from the prewar period, and with AnKor's Shaders it looks reasonably up to date. Here are a few samples.

Edited November 2, 2021 by MajorMagee

[SqueakyS]

I would love it. I find any inter/early/mid war period interesting, not so much later and post war though.

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

My objection to Spanish Civil War stuff would be that it doesn't really plug in to the rest of the sim. Moscow went a year earlier than Stalingrad and could still contribute aircraft across the two modules, Kuban went half a year later and could do the same. Going five years earlier than Moscow gives you very few planes that overlap, the Hs 123 I suppose, and some of the later mark I-16s or I-15s, but it doesn't create a continuum of capability and the aircraft end up on their own little island of playability where all they can reasonably fly against is each other. Bodenplatte had the same problem on release, although Normandy and the large set of 1943 Eastern Front premium aircraft go a long way towards sticking it back onto Il-2's core.

[Zinovy_Kolobanov]

❣️??

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

I wonder about the maps. Just one or a pack of them to cover most of the fronts and battles?

[Rjel]

If getting solid information on Japanese A/C  is proving difficult, I can’t imagine it being much easier with some of the obscure planes used in Spain. If it would end up being nothing but earlier models of 109s, Ju52s, He-111s and the I-16 I don’t see it as being a very successful project. I’d vote no. I’d much rather see other areas explored or expanded. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Rjel

[Eisenfaustus]

I personally would love such an expansion - yet I fear many of the objections are quite valid…

 

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Going five years earlier than Moscow gives you very few planes that overlap

The SCW went on until 1939. Picking a  38 scenario would reduce it to 3 years ^^ So propably most of the planes could fly in the Moscow career. 
 

And if done by 3rd party devs it would also beautifully flank the upcoming Battle of France module!

(ya ok - now I’m daydreaming again…

Maybe starting to drink at 10am isn’t that smart after all?)

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

9 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

The SCW went on until 1939. Picking a  38 scenario would reduce it to 3 years ^^ So propably most of the planes could fly in the Moscow career. 

Alright, go on then. Give three or four Spanish Civil War aircraft that would fit with Moscow, or at least, I wouldn't be embarrassed to fly against an I-16 Type 28, a P-40E or a Bf 109E-7. If the module works with the others I have no problems with it, but the real strength of Il-2 GB is the interconnectivity and if we're adding cool biplane dogfights that don't plug into anything else we have, can we not instead do Flying Circus: Isonzo Smackdown and get planes that are competitive against something in the ecosystem.

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

[Luftschiff]

I'd love it. 

Spain or Finland are almost as high on my wishlist as Pacific.

[Eisenfaustus]

10 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Alright, go on then. Give three or four Spanish Civil War aircraft that would fit with Moscow, or at least, I wouldn't be embarrassed to fly against an I-16 Type 28, a P-40E or a Bf 109E-7. If the module works with the others I have no problems with it, but the real strength of Il-2 GB is the interconnectivity and if we're adding cool biplane dogfights that don't plug into anything else we have, can we not instead do Flying Circus: Isonzo Smackdown and get planes that are competitive against something in the ecosystem.

Soviet:

SB Bombers

R-Z, R-5 and I-15 attackers

I-16 fighters

 

German:

ju87b and do17 bombers

Hs 123 attackers

 

only the logical German fighters he51 and 109d weren’t used in 1941 anymore. 
 

PS

thinking about it - it would actually have a typical eastern front module layout:

one outdated fighter: he51 vs u15

one state of the art fighter: bf109d vs i16

one light bomber: ju87b vs rz 

one medium bomber: do17 vs sb 

and one collector: hs123 vs r5

 

And you could start your ace‘s career for both sides in Spain. 
 

I like it ^^

Edited November 3, 2021 by Eisenfaustus

[Missionbug]

I would love them to do a Spanish Civil War D.L.C., all those lovely early types that will follow the development of aviation into what we already have, what is not to like.

 

With that done we could then progress through early war Finnish Gulf and the fall of Poland and France to give us all those extra early war planes as well.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[Chief_Mouser]

Total numbers of aircraft for the whole war in bold. Not going to be much of a career mode but ok for the dogfighters among us.

 

one outdated fighter: he51 (134) vs i15 (420)

one state of the art fighter: bf109d (V, B,C,D,E - 139) vs i16 (286)

one light bomber: ju87b (V,A,B - 13) vs rz (93)

one medium bomber: do17 (E,F,P - 32) vs sb (93)

and one collector: hs123 (6) vs r5 (31)

[Eisenfaustus]

16 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

Total numbers of aircraft for the whole war in bold. Not going to be much of a career mode but ok for the dogfighters among us.

 

one outdated fighter: he51 (134) vs i15 (420)

one state of the art fighter: bf109d (V, B,C,D,E - 139) vs i16 (286)

one light bomber: ju87b (V,A,B - 13) vs rz (93)

one medium bomber: do17 (E,F,P - 32) vs sb (93)

and one collector: hs123 (6) vs r5 (31)

Thanks for the info - but in absence of any persistent eco system in career I think it would still be fun to play. 
 

And as the 123 still soldiered on in 42 I think it would fit the role as collector plane very well. 

[Alexmarine]

1 hour ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

 

one outdated fighter: he51 (134)

 

 

The 300+ Fiat CR32 that participated in the Spanish Civil War have definitely something more to say than those Heinkels

1 hour ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

one medium bomber: do17 (E,F,P - 32)

 

The 100ish SM79 and 84 SM81 also would gladly replace those anemic germans efforts in the bombing role

 

[1/JSpan_Wind75]

My personal opinion on creating the Spanish Civil War in the simulator could be conflicting. I am 65 years old and in Spain the wound is still not that war and the subsequent period of disctation (Franco) that wound is not yet closed. Spain is still a polarized country divided between RED and BLUE. With the IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 it was tried and never worked and it did generate many disputes.

 

I think that any other theater of war would be more interesting for the non-Spanish community, such as some part of the PACIFICO theater of war. Even the BoB in all its 1940's gradation. The Battle of France and later BoB would be a great idea, although the problem is that the BoB is already made in another platform or simulator but I would prefer to have it in this new SIM engine.

 

And if you would let me give your opinion, I would give priority to a pilot career model in WWI, for those of us who do not fly ON-LINE, which I think there are many of us.

[KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82]

Äh, people...

...Legion Condor was not that big on personal or material.

 

The Royal Italian Army on other hand, sent in a whole expeditionary corps (olthough Hemmingway did not described that to much in his nowaday classical book).

 

Speaking about the interconnectivity - the SM.79 took part in Spain ( Battle of Italy 1943 ?).

The interesting german Bomber Ju86 was tested there too, and it flew basicly until 1941/42 in the bomber variant.

 

Also the G.50 or the beautiful CR.32 for possible 1940 time frame later on.

 

Anyway, personally I would love to fly over the iberian peninsula, just cause of the other environment

[Pict]

3 hours ago, 1/JSpan_Guerrero said:

The Battle of France and later BoB would be a great idea, although the problem is that the BoB is already made in another platform or simulator but I would prefer to have it in this new SIM engine.

 

Good ideas, the problem you mention is not really a problem as it is an old platform and you already provided the solution..."have it in this new SIM engine."

[Avimimus]

15 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

Total numbers of aircraft for the whole war in bold. Not going to be much of a career mode but ok for the dogfighters among us.

 

one outdated fighter: he51 (134) vs i15 (420)

one state of the art fighter: bf109d (V, B,C,D,E - 139) vs i16 (286)

one light bomber: ju87b (V,A,B - 13) vs rz (93)

one medium bomber: do17 (E,F,P - 32) vs sb (93)

and one collector: hs123 (6) vs r5 (31)

 

What about aircraft of French manufacture? NiD 52 was reasonably numerous and the D.372 was fast (if rare)... could make good collector planes.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Avimimus

[DD_Arthur]

20 hours ago, 1/JSpan_Guerrero said:

My personal opinion on creating the Spanish Civil War in the simulator could be conflicting. I am 65 years old and in Spain the wound is still not that war and the subsequent period of disctation (Franco) that wound is not yet closed. Spain is still a polarized country divided between RED and BLUE. With the IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 it was tried and never worked and it did generate many disputes.

 

I think this is a very good point.

We have a large Spanish speaking community.

Spain itself is still coming to terms with what went on and I don’t think the rest of us quite appreciate what this really means for them.

 I think the Spanish civil war is a case of let sleeping dogs lie.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I would like SCW as next expansion.  Love old planes and first variants of its long lines. Good that politics and opinions who was bad and good do not prevent devs from making right  decisions about next theater of war to depict in il2 BG.

Edited November 4, 2021 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[CountZero]

it will never happend

[[CPT]Crunch]

Only if I can port my C-101EB into the terrain.

[LukeFF]

12 hours ago, Avimimus said:

What about aircraft of French manufacture? NiD 52 was reasonably numerous and the D.372 was fast (if rare)... could make good collector planes.

 

The what? Sorry, no offense intended, but no one but a very select few cares or knows about planes like that.

Edited November 4, 2021 by LukeFF

[Avimimus]

13 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The what? Sorry, no offense intended, but no one but a very select few cares or knows about planes like that.

 

Ah, you've not mellowed entirely I see! Feeling a little grumpy today? You've been remarkably tolerant of us fools recently, I was wondering how long it would last.

 

So... LukeFF, we're talking about the SCW - which, is unfortunately fairly obscure to begin with. You could say of the SCW that "very select few cares or knows about" it to begin with.

 

The D.371/372 wasn't very numerous (~15 examples) but was also one of the first cannon equipped fighters, was fast for the time - and did pretty well in Republican hands. It is an aircraft that has appeared in basically every SCW mod made for a flight simulator in history. It also outnumbers the Hs-123 and Ju-87b. The Republicans had ~50 NiD 52 on strength... which is significant in SCW terms but probably less interesting considering that the CR.32 outmatched it.

 

Honestly though, an SCW sim - if it was possible - should have at least one French (probably D.371/372) and a couple of Italian aircraft.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Ah, you've not mellowed entirely I see! Feeling a little grumpy today? You've been remarkably tolerant of us fools recently, I was wondering how long it would last.

 

So... LukeFF, we're talking about the SCW - which, is unfortunately fairly obscure to begin with. You could say of the SCW that "very select few cares or knows about" it to begin with.

 

The D.371/372 wasn't very numerous (~15 examples) but was also one of the first cannon equipped fighters, was fast for the time - and did pretty well in Republican hands. It is an aircraft that has appeared in basically every SCW mod made for a flight simulator in history. It also outnumbers the Hs-123 and Ju-87b. The Republicans had ~50 NiD 52 on strength... which is significant in SCW terms but probably less interesting considering that the CR.32 outmatched it.

 

Honestly though, an SCW sim - if it was possible - should have at least one French (probably D.371/372) and a couple of Italian aircraft.

 

No, not trying to be grumpy, just trying to be realistic. ? Combat flight sims are already quite niche, and the SCW is even more niche than that. There just isn't the interest there with potential buyers, in part because the main planes are not that different from those that came around in the Second World War a short time later. Maybe if there was more of a time gap between the two conflicts you'd see more interest, but of course that's not the case. 

[Pict]

11 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

No, not trying to be grumpy, just trying to be realistic. ? Combat flight sims are already quite niche, and the SCW is even more niche than that. There just isn't the interest there with potential buyers

 

Even if there was the interest, which I agree there isn't, how much data could be found to replicate enough of these types to produce it to BOX standards?

 

For example these French types that have been mentioned have no survivors that I'm aware of. There may be documentation at Le Bourget, but who knows? Just the initial research alone would be monumental and probably point to the fact that there's just not enough information available.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, not trying to be grumpy, just trying to be realistic. ? Combat flight sims are already quite niche, and the SCW is even more niche than that. There just isn't the interest there with potential buyers, in part because the main planes are not that different from those that came around in the Second World War a short time later. Maybe if there was more of a time gap between the two conflicts you'd see more interest, but of course that's not the case. 

 

Yeah, I know it isn't going to happen - especially not at this level of fidelity.  Still, nice to dream sir, nice to dream...

 

I will say that - 1936 air combat would've been very different from 1940 (as much as 1945 in some ways). The war led to more rapid progression in a lot of technologies, but the pre-war rearmament also saw evolution in a lot of areas - monoplanes weren't as mature, cannons were prone to jamming and heavy or low velocity... the dynamics of energy in a dogfight would be quite different (somewhere between WWI and early WWII)...! People do not know what they are missing... but that could be said over everyone who hasn't flown a flight simulator for that matter too

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

 

 

WIP

PACK FICTIONAL SKINS SCW?

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The what? Sorry, no offense intended, but no one but a very select few cares or knows about planes like that.

Starting from "I've never heard of this plane" is a great way to get a new favourite plane. In my view, every Il-2 module should include a plane I know next to nothing about. I've greatly enjoyed getting into the Eastern Front air war from Il-2.

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

Lets go! SCW download +30skins 

It is possible. 

 

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

I would love to see this module in the future. It should be integrated with the rest of the expansions as much as possible. Many soviet planes can be used in a Barbarossa expansion. Why not then?

[rotagen]

I'm glad to see this topic getting posts. I'm getting back into flight sims and tank sims, both genres seem to have been abandoned by developers. In my opinion they did it to themselves, old sims like Red Baron 3D , Jane's WW2 fighters and CFS2 (the 3 best in my opinion) had a different philosophy, keep the game addictive- it's all about adrenaline-filled dogfights and generating an add-on community.  CFS2 for instance had so many add-ons it was crazy. The terrain was completely moddable and based on latitude and longitude (with real world elevation maps) you could fly anywhere in the world with add-ons, I used to dog-fight over a beautiful death valley terrain.  Rise of flight got boring fast due to the drudgery of the damage model and lack of decent single player, and Wings of Prey got some things right (if you want to see the most amazing realistic terrain get this obscure one), but then it turned into war thunder which is nothing but multiplayer fighting little kids.

 

OK enough rant - does anyone know if either IL-2 flying circus or the tank sim add-on have enough single player content to be worth it?

 

Also does this SCW add-on have campaigns? (fantastic idea by the way).