Normandy ships

[Duce_de_Zoop]

So I've been following the dev diary, and the landing vessels and destroyers all look very cool. Can't wait to pump some 20mm into them. 

 

But are there more ships in the pipeline? I can't help but feel the largest naval invasion in history will feel underwhelming without a good variety of transports and escorts and capital ships. I know carriers aren't likely, but do we stand a chance of maybe getting a cruiser or battleship? A big, juicy target to strafe?

 

I am CAS ride-or-die so this I get most excited about new assets to shoot. Just curious if there's been any additional information on what sorta naval assets we might expect to see

[Halon]

I'm sure there will be Battleships, Cruisers and various others ships, including hopefully Monitors, for you to be shot down whilst attempting to get near. Provided that is they're around before and after D-Day as sadly I don't believe we're going to get the big day but fingers crossed I'm wrong. Also I don't think any carriers were involved due to the proximity of that big unsinkable carrier nearby.

[Enceladus828]

If you want Battleships and Cruisers, Desert Wings-Tobruk has a great variety of them such as the Queen Elizabeth and Revenge class BBs, Zara class, Leander and Leipzig class Cruisers, Tribal and 1936 Destroyers and many more supply/merchant ships.

 

For BoN It looks like the Liberty class vessel will also be included.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Enceladus

[BlitzPig_EL]

I doubt we will see a battleship, for a couple reasons.

 

1:  Far too many AI controlled AA guns that would bring any computer to it's knees.  You wouldn't even get close to one to strafe it anyway. 

 

2:  The time frame we are likely to have was after the BBs were withdrawn because the Allies had pushed beyond the range of their guns.

 

I would like to see BB 35 USS Texas, but I'm not holding my breath that she will be modeled.  It would be a huge expense for the short time she was on station.

 

 

[JG27_Mainz]

Texas, the ship that flooded herself to reach the necessary elevation to fire her guns even further inland.

[SYN_Vander]

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

...I would like to see BB 35 USS Texas, but I'm not holding my breath that she will be modeled.  It would be a huge expense for the short time she was on station.

 

 

 

I agree and doubt it as well. Still, after a quick look at wikipedia:

Quote

Texas escorted war convoys across the Atlantic and later shelled Axis-held beaches for the North African campaign and the Normandy Landings before being transferred to the Pacific Theater late in 1944 to provide naval gunfire support during the Battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

 

it would seem it makes a nice investment for both a North Africa and Pacific theatre ?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Not to mention that she is the only surviving dreadnought battleship on the planet, and the only US Navy capital ship to serve in both world wars.

[SYN_Vander]

24 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Not to mention that she is the only surviving dreadnought battleship on the planet, and the only US Navy capital ship to serve in both world wars.

 

So also can be used for a future Flying Circus Channel map? ?

[Ghost666]

37 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

and the only US Navy capital ship to serve in both world wars.

The dreadnought USS Utah served in both wars, although only for 1 day in WWII. Sadly my grandfathers ship went down 7 Dec 41.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Not to mention that she is the only surviving dreadnought battleship on the planet, and the only US Navy capital ship to serve in both world wars.

 

I was about to say "what about that one that's a museum in Japan", and then I looked it up and saw it's actually a pre-dreadnought BB:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mikasa

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yeah Luke, Mikasa is the oldest battleship in existence, though not the oldest all steel warship in existence, that honor goes to the cruiser USS Olympia.

 

Interestingly, Mikasa was built in England by Vickers for the Japanese Navy, as was the much later battle cruiser, Kongo.

[Juri_JS]

Any idea if we will also get new German ships? As a mission builder I am really missing some kind of German escort vessel for coastal convoys. A German destroyer, torpedo boat or M-boat would be useful. Especially torpedo boats operating from Le Havre were quite active during the first days of the Invasion, until they were sunk by a RAF raid on 14 June.

[Pict]

15 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

Any idea if we will also get new German ships?

 

 That's a good question.

 

I hope we do, but I think the big downside to D-Day is how overwhelmingly unbalanced it was as a battle from both the air and sea perspective.

 

Interesting little history of the Kriegsmarine in Normandy here for anyone interested. Most of their action was by Schnellboote, which we alread have from Battle of Stalingrad. Perhaps they were differnt models?

[Juri_JS]

20 minutes ago, Pict said:

Interesting little history of the Kriegsmarine in Normandy here for anyone interested. Most of their action was by Schnellboote, which we alread have from Battle of Stalingrad. Perhaps they were differnt models?

The article is confusing S-boats and torpedo boats. In Kriegsmarine terminology this is a torpedo boat:

 

 

The destroyer Svenner was sunk by torpedo boats T 28, Jaguar and Möwe on 6 June and not by S-boats.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The term "torpedo boat" covers a lot of different types of vessels.  From small and fast, think US PT, or British Vosper, or German E Boat, to larger types like the German one Juri_JS posted, which is similar to what we call a frigate or destroyer.  Even the term "destroyer" comes from the existence of torpedo boats, as the destroyer type was initially designed to deal with torpedo boats and was originally termed "torpedo boat destroyer".

Edited October 31, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[Pict]

55 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

The destroyer Svenner was sunk by torpedo boats T 28, Jaguar and Möwe on 6 June and not by S-boats.

 

Interesting, thanks. So there a bit of potential for a couple of new keels to be laid.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I would welcome a German DD.  It would fill a major gap that is currently only begrudgingly filled by the Russian DD masquerading as a German one.

[Rjel]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between a dreadnought and a battleship? In name only, time of its construction or size?  

[Chief_Mouser]

23 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between a dreadnought and a battleship? In name only, time of its construction or size?  

 

The commissioning of HMS Dreadnought in 1906 began the use of the name. Dreadnought was such a radically new design that it made every other battleship in the world obsolete - including all of the Royal Navy's. Nice going ?

Every capital ship built before HMS Dreadnought became known as a pre-Dreadnought.

The maritime navies of the industrialised world then began a new arms race building 'dreadnoughts' of their own, especially the RN as the policy was to have more battleships than the next two largest navies combined.

Dreadnought construction largely ceased with the outbreak of WW1, and after that 'battleship' became the name to be used once again, although anything surviving from WW1 was still technically a 'dreadnought'.

[DD_Arthur]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Yeah Luke, Mikasa is the oldest battleship in existence, though not the oldest all steel warship in existence, that honor goes to the cruiser USS Olympia.

 

Interestingly, Mikasa was built in England by Vickers for the Japanese Navy, as was the much later battle cruiser, Kongo.

 

Interestingly#2;  The Mikasa is the only British built battleship in existence.     

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Yeah Luke, Mikasa is the oldest battleship in existence, though not the oldest all steel warship in existence, that honor goes to the cruiser USS Olympia.

 

Yes, the Olympia also has a fascinating history. A friend of mine is an engineering diver, and so a few years ago he dived beneath it to assess its structural integrity. He's also dived on a fleet submarine - the Torsk, I believe. 

[Avimimus]

On 10/30/2021 at 6:00 PM, Halon said:

I'm sure there will be Battleships, Cruisers and various others ships, including hopefully Monitors, for you to be shot down whilst attempting to get near. Provided that is they're around before and after D-Day as sadly I don't believe we're going to get the big day but fingers crossed I'm wrong. Also I don't think any carriers were involved due to the proximity of that big unsinkable carrier nearby.

 

Please don't tell anyone to be sure of anything!

 

Many of the largest ships actually had more anti-aircraft guns than the mission format currently allows (I tried making a Channel Dash mission to see what the anti-aircraft fire would be like - the ships were just pieces of land with the AA guns arranged in a ship shape... but, well, you know - I was curious). To save resources the engine kept turning off a lot of the AI!

 

I'm hoping we'll someday see a Motor Gun Boat... and maybe a couple of smaller transport ships (for the 57mm Molins of the Tse-Tse Mosquito)! But I wouldn't recommend hoping for more than that - at least if they don't do the Pacific. That said, I would like to see an Axis destroyer someday (e.g. if they ever do the siege of Leningrad).

 

Note: It really makes a lot of sense to not have large German surface vessels at Normandy (since there weren't any). I suppose the largest surface combatants would have been a few Leichte Artillerieträgers? Basically small monitors for coastal defense purposes?

  

10 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The term "torpedo boat" covers a lot of different types of vessels.  From small and fast, think US PT, or British Vosper, or German E Boat, to larger types like the German one Juri_JS posted, which is similar to what we call a frigate or destroyer.  Even the term "destroyer" comes from the existence of torpedo boats, as the destroyer type was initially designed to deal with torpedo boats and was originally termed "torpedo boat destroyer".

 

Indeed... they were still called Contre Torpilleur in French.

 

Your point reminds me of Battlecruisers - somewhere I read an article that basically made the point that they are actually four or five types of ships designed for three or so different doctrines (Fisher's battlecruiser reliant on long range fire and speed, a kind of super heavy cruiser to counter enemy heavy cruisers, and some types of fast battleships). If anyone knows which website has that article... I'd kind-of like to re-read it sometime

Edited November 1, 2021 by Avimimus

[Props]

15 hours ago, Rjel said:

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between a dreadnought and a battleship? In name only, time of its construction or size?  

For some great naval history and a large depository of ship info take a gander at Drachinifel's youtube channel. I've been addicted to this guy's videos for over a year now. He only covers ships up to the end of WW2, with a tiny bit of spillover into the '50s where necessary and even has 2 great videos covering the A6M Zero!

 

He also has gone into great detail on pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought, and Battleship/Battlecruiser differences and development.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The "down and dirty" difference comes basically to guns.  Early battleships typically had a mixed armament of primary, secondary and tertiary guns.  Something like 10 to 12 inch main battery, secondaries of 5 to 9 inch guns of the type usually found on cruisers, and the third tier of 3 odd inch, or less, "quick firing" guns for torpedo boat defense.

 

Dreadnoughts were all big gun ships with only a secondary tier of guns for close range defense.

 

There is more to it of course, but that's the jist of it.

[Avimimus]

Yes, there were ironclad ships of the line, and ironclad turret monitors (for coastal/harbour defense)... around the same time new high explosive shells were developed making wooden ships increasingly vulnerable. However, most ocean going ships lacked turrets and had sails into the second half of the 19th century.

 

The 'Pre-Dreadnought' battleships replaced those. They largely removed sails, allowing for two large turrets (fore and aft), each of which had two large guns (for four guns of anywhere from 9.4" to 13.5" in caliber)! They sometimes carried secondary turrets on the sides, and tertiary turrets to defend against small targets. Some ships had as many as seven different types of guns! During this period the quality of armour-piercing shells was low, and the velocity of guns were low - so combat against other capital ships was expected to take place at point blank range. Even then the ability to penetrate armour was uncertain, so warships were often equipped with torpedoes.

 

Dreadnought ushered in a new era. There were several improvements, but the overall design was a radical emphasis on firing at longer ranges. With five turrets instead of two it had ten 12" high velocity guns. These guns were planned to devastate enemies during daylight before they got into range, and being all of the same type, it would be easier to bring them all into range on a target. The secondary armament consisted of small 3" guns, and it was even planned that a third of them would only be deployed at night when the ship was most vulnerable to torpedo boats.

 

After that there was the arms race creating the "super dreadnought" battleships of ever increasing gun size, armour, and improved ranging equipment... along with improvements in armour layout and engines leading up until WW2.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:14 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

1:  Far too many AI controlled AA guns that would bring any computer to it's knees.  You wouldn't even get close to one to strafe it anyway.

I think the Devs could easily "cheat" a bit to circumvent this problem. They could use the same AI to control multiple guns. Only calculate the required traverse/elevation to hit a certain target once, then fire multiple guns with these settings.

 

Of course, this would introduce some parallax, but if you have let's say four different AI (bow, stern, starboard midship, port midship) each controlling 6 guns, the effect would be overseeable and IMO only add to the illusion of many guns, while it'd have basically the same AI impact as a B-25's gunners.