Flare Pistol to Take Out Balloons

[Have_Gun_Will_Travel]

Afternoon all,

 

Just one for the developers to consider, perhaps the flare pistol could be used to bring down a balloon? 

 

I could imagine if a balloon was struck by one, I would think a fire would start and spread.  Obliviously you would need to be close to be effective.

 

Anyways just a thought.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Not sure if it would work in real life, maybe it would ?

But since there's already dedicated 'balloon guns' I'm not sure the devs would bother..

 

The name's Paladin, Wire Paladin !

 

S!

[Feathered_IV]

Pretty sure it would quickly lose all its momentum and bounce off.

[J2_Trupobaw]

The balloon would need to already be perforated and surrounded by flammable hydrogen/oxygen mix, flare would need to hit that area exactly and pilot needs to rooll natural 20. Not inpossible, but to unlikely to bother modelling.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Not sure if it would work in real life, maybe it would ?

But since there's already dedicated 'balloon guns' I'm not sure the devs would bother..

 

The name's Paladin, Wire Paladin !

 

S!

Will Paladin i belive it was. Watched the show as a kid.  ( in black and white btw)  If not mistaken, he was a bounty hunter?

Edited October 30, 2021 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[JG1_Vonrd]

Sorry for off topic but the show was "Have Gun, Will Travel" and he was based in San Francisco as I recall. According to Google searches:

On the television show, Paladin's true name is never given. Though it remains a point of debate amongst fans, one of the tie-in books, which expands on the origin story shown in the episode "Genesis," his real name is given as Clay Alexander.

[Have_Gun_Will_Travel]

Well I choose the name based off a book titled 'Have Gun Will Travel' by Karl Penta. A true story of a mercenary in South America. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I just happen to be watching HGWT at the moment, apologies for the distraction.

'Wire Paladin' was on his business card (as in send a message to Paladin).. but yes I thought it was his fist name initially !

It seems the book came out 2003, so the connection is in title only.

 

S!

[ACG_Bussard]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I may have an interesting find.

 

I recently came  in the German Federal Archives across the "instructions for the observation officer (A.B.O.)" dated 04.08.1916 (BArch PH 17-I_111) with following instrution:

 

"C. Other combat missions for aircraft

Aircraft can destroy airships and balloons by ruthless attack from close range. On 09.10.1915, a German aircraft succeeded in bringing down an enemy  balloon by firing a flare gun at 10m."

 

Screenshot:

 

 

I tested this yesterday offline in FC with the ACQM, unfortunately the flare  bounced off the balloon and caused no damage.

 

Since the use of flare ammunition against balloons is confirmed by above mentiond primary source, this could be a reason for consideration by the devs and would usefully extend the use of the flare gun. What do you think about this?

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 hour ago, Bussard* said:

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I may have an interesting find.

 

I recently came  in the German Federal Archives across the "instructions for the observation officer (A.B.O.)" dated 04.08.1916 (BArch PH 17-I_111) with following instrution:

 

"C. Other combat missions for aircraft

Aircraft can destroy airships and balloons by ruthless attack from close range. On 09.10.1915, a German aircraft succeeded in bringing down an enemy  balloon by firing a flare gun at 10m."

 

Screenshot:

 

 

I tested this yesterday offline in FC with the ACQM, unfortunately the flare  bounced off the balloon and caused no damage.

 

Since the use of flare ammunition against balloons is confirmed by above mentiond primary source, this could be a reason for consideration by the devs and would usefully extend the use of the flare gun. What do you think about this?

 

Your exellent source mentions the Alder-B-Patrone, which was a special round for the flare gun. It was an incendiary bullet containing white phosphorus also called the Ballonpatrone (balloon bullet). It was used for balloon attack missions, it had an impact detonator which released the burning white phosphorus. This special round was invented by an Austrian chemist called Viktor Emil Rudolph Alder as early as 1916. The final round was put together in a factory in Spandau Berlin. He also invented the tracer round btw.

 

https://www.karinkiradi.at/2024/01/28/viktor-alder-jun-1877-1948/

Edited February 21, 2024 by J99_Sizzlorr

[ACG_Bussard]

29 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Your exellent source mentions the Alder-B-Patrone, which was a special round for the flare gun. It was an incendiary bullet containing white phosphorus also called the Ballonpatrone (balloon bullet). It was used for balloon attack missions, it had an impact detonator which released the burning white phosphorus. This special round was invented by an Austrian chemist called Viktor Emil Rudolph Alder as early as 1916.

 

https://www.karinkiradi.at/2024/01/28/viktor-alder-jun-1877-1948/

Correct, I didn´t mentioned it in my prior post. AFAIK this cartridge was only available in the caliber 7,92 mm (8x57), which doesn´t fit in the Mauser C96 and Luger P08 pistol.

 

To make it work in Flying Circurs we would need a rifle, which could be shot from the tail gunner (or obersavtion officer). This would be a second question for consideration by the devs.

 

Sources:

DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf (waffen-welt.de)

 

Alder Ballonpatrone für M 95 (rainerregiment.at)

Edited February 21, 2024 by Bussard*
Add a second source

[J99_Sizzlorr]

2 hours ago, Bussard* said:

Correct, I didn´t mentioned it in my prior post. AFAIK this cartridge was only available in the caliber 7,92 mm (8x57), which doesn´t fit in the Mauser C96 and Luger P08 pistol.

 

To make it work in Flying Circurs we would need a rifle, which could be shot from the tail gunner (or obersavtion officer). This would be a second question for consideration by the devs.

 

Sources:

DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf (waffen-welt.de)

 

Alder Ballonpatrone für M 95 (rainerregiment.at)

Interesting, but then the Spandaus and Parabellum could fire it. So no need for another rifle...
Edit: I read somewhere that neither pilots nor observeres took rifles with them besides the early 1914/1915 days.

Edited February 21, 2024 by J99_Sizzlorr

[ACG_Bussard]

31 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Interesting, but then the Spandaus and Parabellum could fire it. So no need for another rifle...

That could be a solution. However, no other ammunition or cartridge belts are optionally selectable in the entire simulation. So I doubt very much that the devs would do that. Since this would open Pandora's box for them, I suggest we stay on the ground of what is feasible

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 minute ago, Bussard* said:

That could be a solution. However, no other ammunition or cartridge belts are optionally selectable in the entire simulation. So I seriously doubt  that the devs would do that. Since this would open Pandora's box for them, I suggest we stay on the ground of what is feasible  

 

I am not suggesting that it should be added to the game, I am more interested in the history of it

[ACG_Bussard]

Back to the topic of using flare guns for balloon busting.

 

In the German magazine Flugsport, annual issue 1917, I came across the following article about fighting of tied balloons:

"However, the machine gun is not very effective against balloons, because the hits it inflicts allow the balloon to remain in the air for a long time, as the minor damage to the hull only allows the hydrogen gas to escape very slowly... The most effective method has proved to be to fly around the balloon in a wide circle without losing sight of it and to gain the necessary height; the attacker then comes down from a direction where he may have the sun and wind at his back, and before the ground crew can be alerted, a few well-aimed shots from the flare gun - because this is the most suitable "weapon" for the purpose mentioned - have set fire to the annoying observation device at close range."

 

Screenshot:

 

 

https://www.pennula.de/zeitschrift-flugsport/online-archiv/luftfahrt-luftwaffe-erster-weltkrieg-1917

 

Now we already have two sources from back then and one reason more for a consideration.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2024 by Bussard*

[ACG_Bussard]

The topic is still on my agenda.

 

This time I came across the French report on the first balloon shot down on October 9, 1915. This is the same day as the factual report in the "instructions for the observation officer (A.B.O.)" of the German Air Force. Probably both documents mentioned the identical event.

 

Screenshot:

 

 

Source:

 

The first French observation balloon of the Great War shot down | The Western Front Association

 

The translation from French with DeepL is as follows:

 

 

 

It's amazing what you can find on the Internet these days.

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Bussard*
typo´s