Il-2 Great Battles Expansion Concepts: Battle of Sicily

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Previous threads:

 

Thesis

Let's repeat the core assumptions:

- We can't do anything CloD already does, it's eating 1C's own lunch. Neither should we do anything that CloD doesn't do yet but is better positioned to do, like France, Norway, bits of the Battle of Britain that aren't in Kent or the Western Desert Campaign.

- We can't do the Pacific, as Jason has said many times at length. The subject of this thread is not debate over whether he's telling the truth or what's stopping them or how we could get around it. No Pacific. The world of Il-2 Great Battles ends at the Urals and Iceland.

- I'm not going to do anything in which most of the aircraft are equipped solely or mainly with rifle calibre machine guns. Regardless of whether they're modelled correctly, I really just don't find them much fun. Yeah, this does rule out the Winter War.

Battle of Sicily

Sicily is a really strong candidate for a future expansion in my view. It fits well with a number of aircraft we already have in the game while also adding a set of interesting new planes that aren't really available in other places. Most obviously, the Italian Air Force provide a wide range of fighter aircraft that are not Bf 109s, but there are also some lesser-spotted Allied picks.

Historical Notability

By the summer of 1943 the Allies had driven the Axis out of North Africa and captured a huge number of troops in Tunisia. This meant that Western Allied forces were not in direct contact with any European Axis armies and the Soviet Union was complaining about shouldering an unfair amount of the burden of land combat. The stage was set for a re-entry to the European continent, but concerns about the execution of an amphibious landing made Allied planners reluctant to go straight for France and the dense transportation networks that would make it easy for German reinforcements to arrive. Instead a peripheral strategy was adopted, 'striking at the belly of the beast' as Churchill put it, and landings were planned on the major Italian island of Sicily. Sicily was almost as difficult for the Germans to get to as the Allies, and was also a direct threat to the Italian government that could knock them and their multi-million man army out of the war entirely.

 

The first steps of this process were the Mincemeat deception operation, which is not directly relevant to flight simming, and the reduction of the peripheral islands of Pantelleria, Lampedusa and Linosa. It has been claimed that the air bombardment of Pantelleria, a gigantic effort by practically everything that could carry a bomb in the Mediterranean involving the dropping of a total of 6202t of bombs and a bunch of naval gunfire, is the first time that a fortified position has been forced to surrender by bombardment alone. This is patently rubbish, but the effect of that much bombing on an island not much bigger than Manhattan must have been astonishing, with British strategic bombing analyst Professor Zuckerman claiming a 47% reduction in the effectiveness of the defenses. Axis opposition was fierce, with Italy deploying their first wing of Macchi 205s in the defence of the large airbase and cool underground hangars at Pantelleria and major air battles in early June between Allied and Axis fighters. Once Pantelleria and Lampedusa were secured in mid June their airbases were turned into forward bases for the Allies, with Pantelleria supporting the 33rd Fighter Group in their P-40s.

There was then a period of huge air bombardment against Sicily, in which many Italian aircraft were destroyed and further German and Italian aircraft were rushed into the theatre to bolster the defences. Medium and Heavy bomber units pounded industrial targets, transportation links and joined fighter-bombers in smashing Axis airfields across the island. By the beginning of the main invasion in early July all Axis twin engines had been forced back to bases in the toe of Italy and Sardinia and the number of Axis single engines still operational on the island had halved, despite their best efforts.

Come the actual day of the invasion, though, the Allied air superiority that had been achieved was not the stomping, fire-breathing supremacy that would be seen a year later in Normandy. Distances from bases and numbers of aircraft meant that it was impossible to maintain continuous fighter cover over all of the landing area for the entire day, although continuous cover was achieved at dawn and dusk, the most likely times for the attack. Other aircraft were committed to roving attacks on road transport behind the beachheads to inhibit supply movement or a final strike on airfields. In the event, Axis attacks were ‘light’, with twelve ships sunk and many more damaged. This compares well to the US Navy’s casualty estimate of three hundred ships lost during the invasion phase but I don’t think we can fairly call it light attacks.

The Airborne components of Operation Husky are well known to be debacles, with most paratroopers missing their drop zone entirely, many drowning and the only alleged ‘success’ being the capture of the bridge at Primosole by 1st Parachute Brigade, which was technically not successful and is mostly notable for being the only battle in history where both sides have dropped airborne troops into combat. Most blame is placed on inexperienced and cowardly C-47 pilots, who failed to correctly navigate a complex over-water route at night, fly through both enemy and friendly flak, with minimal briefing and dropping into difficult drop zones that were sometimes directly on top of enemy forces. Well then: Lets see you do better!

All of this was valuable experience for Normandy, and now that troops were ashore the fighting took on a tone that also sounds familiar. By D+3 the Allies had six forward airbases on the island of Sicily itself and Axis air opposition had been more or less suppressed. The next month of the campaign was now one of advancing against sparse but stiff German resistance, with Italian troops seeming to really struggle with morale and organisational issues. Allied air power was again applied liberally in ‘tactical’ operations, although quite a lot of the missions described against bridges, marshalling yards, supply dumps and ports sound more like operational interdiction to me. This is not to say that close air support was not provided, the most striking example probably being a terrifying incident in which twelve B-25s of the 340th BG were instructed to provide twenty tons of close support and "the bombs landed 200 yards away from the Canadians, wiped out all three guns, and the Canadians swept through." Not something one would get away with today. Eventually Axis troops collapsed back onto Messina and were evacuated across the narrow straits, struggling against interdiction by Beaufighters and B-25s.

In the final phase of the campaign the Allies coiled for their leap onto the Italian mainland, spending late August smashing facilities in Italy and Sardinia in much the same way as they had previously against Sicily. This, combined with a huge precision raid on Rome, convinced the Italian authorities that enough was enough. On the 3rd of September 1943 Brigadier-General Giuseppe Castellano signed an Armistice agreement at Cassibile in Sicily, Italy withdrew from the war and Allied troops landed at Reggio Calabria on the tip of the toe of Italy. The battle of Sicily was at an end, but the Italian campaign was not.

The Map

This is the largest proposed map area I intend to put forward for Il-2 Great Battles. It is 820km across, 480km tall and has a full area of 400,000km^2. It’s so big that the curvature of the earth makes it look squint. It’s certainly ambitious, but at 70,000km^2 of land area it is one of the least demanding maps to build in the game, assuming that water in GB is essentially just an area of Unland that can be added trivially and not take significant time to detail. Essentially what you are looking at is the land area of Moscow with a lot of flight time between the bits. The map has enough of Tunisia to use it for basing, although not really enough to represent the capture of Tunisia, and is designed to be suitable to cover operations from the Battle of Pantelleria (Operation Corkscrew), through the Sicily campaign to the landings at Reggio Calabria (Operation Baytown) and the Italian Armistice. It would also be suitable for scenario missions outside of the Sicily campaign, such as the British contribution to Operation Flax and sections of the Siege of Malta and Mediterranean Convoy Battles.

The Aircraft

In accordance with standard Great Battles practice, eight aircraft have been selected, plus two Collector aircraft bundled with the expansion.

Allies

Bristol Beaufighter Mk.VI (Collector)

Curtiss P-40F/L Kittyhawk Mk.II

Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Vc

North American A-36A

North American B-25C

Axis

Macchi C. 205 Veltro (Collector)

Reggiane Re. 2001

Reggiane Re. 2002

Caproni Ca. 314

Savoia-Marchetti SM. 79

 

In addition, a large number of other aircraft from the Great Battles series would be useful for operations in this theatre, most obviously the Macchi C. 202 from Battle for Moscow, but also all of the Lend-Lease aircraft (P-40E, Hurricane II, Spitfire Mk.Vb, P-39L, A-20B) and the P-51B from Normandy for the Allies. Airborne operations from both sides justify the Ju 52 and the upcoming C-47. The German Luftwaffe is a side character in the story of the battle, but they appeared in numbers at least as large as the Regia Aeronautica fielding Bf 109Gs, Ju 88s of fighter and bomber types and Fw 190A/F strike aircraft. The Regia Aeronautica also had a number of Ju 87D-3 Stukas and Bf 109Gs of various marks. Really, the only current title which gets you no relevant aircraft for Sicily is Bodenplatte.

 

Bristol Beaufighter Mk.VI (Collector)

A USAAF Beaufighter Mk.VI(F) based in Sicily, July 1943.

 

A much loved and much requested aircraft, the Beaufighter is in some ways the inheritor of the mantle of the Bristol Fighter of the First World War. Developed on the basis of the Beaufort light bomber, the intent was to produce a ‘Beaufort Cannon Fighter’ that could quickly be placed into production while the Westland Whirlwind project was on the rocks yet again. Despite fitting a pair of gigantic Bristol Hercules radial engines, the Beaufighter wasn’t really up to the task of replacing the Whirlwind, being simply too large and too heavy, a condition that was not helped by the Air Ministry messing around trying to get it to work on a pair of Merlins with ⅔ the horsepower. Still, hundreds were produced, with early models becoming famous as some of the first successful radar-equipped night fighters, using the navigator/gunner to operate the temperamental radars.

 

By 1942 production was well underway and the Mk.VI version had the Hercules engines back and a set of minor improvements to handling. The long range and vast firepower of the four cannons on the aircraft made it an excellent maritime patrol aircraft, being quite capable of shredding light ships or tangling with enemy long-range fighters and bombers. The capability of the aircraft was only increased by a series of modifications that added bomb, torpedo or rocket carriage. The definitive Beaufighter model is often said to be the TF Mk.X, but none of these aircraft reached Sicily, and honestly there is little that they add over an appropriately modified Mk.VI other than power.

 

Coastal Air Force Beaufighters based on Malta were a critical part of Allied strategy during the North Africa campaign, working together with other aircraft to strangle the Axis supply lines into the theatre. Even after the fall of Tunis, Beaufighters continued to savage Axis shipping, with aircraft in the Med sinking 94 vessels during the month of May 1943. Tactics generally involved an extremely low level attack made at Wing strength, with Beaufighters providing top cover and ‘anti-flak’ strafing while aircraft equipped with torpedoes (including other Beaufighters) pressed the attack home. Meanwhile, British Beaufighters were flying night intrusion missions over Sicily, while their American counterparts in Reverse Lend-Leased aircraft flew day escort and strike missions. If you want to play through three completely different campaigns while flying one aircraft in one theatre, the Beaufighter is one of very few possible choices.

Curtiss P-40F-5/L-5 Kittyhawk Mk.II

P-40Fs of GC II/5 ‘La Fayette’ as they reequip in North Africa. Mere weeks before, these pilots had been in action against USN Wildcats over Casablanca.

 

The Kittyhawk we have, the E model, is generally considered something of a challenge aircraft in Il-2 at the moment. It’s relatively slow, climbs like crap, can’t turn, drops off in performance at even a moderate altitude and requires significant engine management skills to get something approaching peak performance out of it. And it’s great fun, but couldn’t it do with being just a little easier to fly?

 

The P-40F was developed by Curtiss-Wright as part of their ongoing programme to duct-tape any engine they could find onto a P-36 (see also: XP-37, P-40, XP-42, XP-46, XP-60). This particular edition involved one of the first series of Packard-built Merlins, the V-1650-1, a variant of the Merlin XX series engines familiar to us from the Hurricane II we have and the Mosquito VI we are currently slavering for. Compared to the P-40E, this engine slightly decreases maximum speed on the deck in exchange for adding another 5000ft to the altitude at which the aircraft starts to struggle, usually quite a good trade. The engine also comes with the same ratings as are familiar to us from the V-1650s in the P-51: Five minutes of Emergency, fifteen of Combat and automatic boost control which prevents you from instantly bricking the engine unless you fly like a complete baboon. So sure, it's theoretically slower, but have you ever had the guts to push the P-40E to its absolute maximum sea level speed in a fight?

 

Technically this aircraft would be two distinct letter variants in one, which hasn't been offered previously in Il-2 GB, but the P-40L is honestly a fairly minor set of changes from the P-40F. Some armour is removed, a fuel tank is chucked, some extraneous equipment is extracted and on most aircraft, two guns are dropped. This is very much a familiar modification on most American aircraft in the game and I wouldn't be surprised if many aircraft in squadron service ended up at a standard somewhere between the two. The headline difference of this modification is a full 1000ft/min increase in rate of climb compared to the P-40E with six guns, with the P-40F falling somewhere between the two points. The standard climb rate of the P-40E is somewhere in the 2000ft/min range so that's hugely impressive.

 

To turn to the specific use of the P-40F in Sicily, the aircraft was the main USAAF fighter at the start of Operation Husky, equipping five Fighter Groups and the 99th FS, the famous Tuskagee Airmen. They flew intensive strike and bomber escort missions throughout the Sicily campaign, with the 99th earning a Distinguished Unit Citation for their conduct. The RAF were more lukewarm on the type, with some sources stating that all P-40Fs ordered were transferred to the Soviet Union, France or back to the US, but the RAAF certainly operated a few P-40Fs and P-40Ls. Commonwealth P-40s tended to be used solely in the strike role, carrying a centreline load of a 500lb or 1000lb bomb or two 250lb bombs on a rack. Underwing racks for 6x 40lb bombs could be fitted but were not terribly popular. 3 Squadron RAAF also found an overrun German bomb dump in Sicily and fitted some of their aircraft with Stuka-style ‘screamers’, a very entertaining modification that I’m sure soon wore thin since the P-40L should be more than fast enough to scream constantly in level flight.

Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Vc

A Spitfire Mk.Vc/trop of 307 FS in Sicily.

 

The Spitfire Mk.Vb that we have in the sim right now is an excellent representation of the Spitfire Mk.Vbs delivered to and used in the Kuban theatre in 1943, which is all it was ever supposed to be. However, for more general representation of the Spitfire Mk.V, it falls a little short, hence it is up to its slightly better younger brother to give us a more general, Western Front representation of the type.

 

The Spitfire Mk.V had a somewhat troubled history. It was never quite the aircraft that the RAF asked for, but with the Mk.III coming to grief over insufficient supply of Merlin XX engines and the Mk.VI having to have a complex pressure system designed for it, it was the aircraft they got, with first deliveries in December 1940. The new 40 series Merlin engine and cannon armament allowed the new Spitfire to seriously stick it to Bf 109Es and confidently challenge Bf 109Fs, but the introduction of the Fw 190A in mid 1941 completely outclassed it. The cropped supercharger of the Merlin 45M and clipped wings allowed the LF Mk.Vb to barely keep pace, but the 190 was only finally bested by the crash-introduction of the new Mk.IX with its two-stage supercharged 60 series Merlin. The Spitfire Mk.Vc, an upgrade of the Mk.Vb with a restressed fuselage and redesigned wing, was the donor aircraft for the Mk.IX conversions and would remain a footnote in the operational history of the Spitfire.

 

Except...

 

Merlin 61s for the Spitfire Mk.IX could not be produced fast enough, so Spitfire Mk.Vc production continued. They were pretty marginal for combat against Fw 190s, so almost all of them were dispatched to secondary theatres such as the Mediterranean and Pacific. The Spitfires that saved Malta were Mk.Vcs, as were most of the Spitfires in theatre at the start of Operation Husky. The USAAF, desperate for aircraft with better performance than the disappointing P-39 and P-40 series, acquired enough aircraft to equip two Groups in the MTO. Aircraft were fitted with a variety of sand filters which created different drag effects and the Mk.Vc in the Mediterranean was the only Spitfire of WW2 to use four Hispano cannons, an armament that was generally unpopular due to the manoeuvrability losses it created and specifically not used outside of the Med because it created vulnerabilities to freezing in colder climes. Most aircraft would instead carry two Hispanos (now, blessedly, with 120 round belt feeds) and four .303s, which was quite sufficient to tangle with anything else in the air. In addition, late series Mk.Vcs were equipped with the Merlin 50 and 50M engines, introducing some constructional changes, a new carburettor and the option of +18lb boost at low level from the cropped impeller of the 50M. Add to this the ability to carry a useful bomb load and the final Mark V is noticeably better than its predecessor.

 

North American A-36A

One of a small handful of A-36As operated by 1437 (Strategic Reconnaissance) Flight RAF on an unofficial loan basis.

 

The A-36A, variously referred to as Apache, Invader or Mustang, is an aircraft that nobody really wanted. As the RAF screamed for all available fighters in 1942, the Lend-Lease contract that early Mustang Mk.Is were being purchased under ran out of funds, resulting in the end of Mustang production at North American. The US didn’t want this any more than the UK did, but all appropriations funding for fighters had already been spent. As a result, the aircraft was ordered as a dive bomber using spare funding from the attack aircraft programme. The changes included a stronger wing, a set of dive brakes and the use of the drop tank hardpoints to carry bombs, but was really a fairly minor modification that succeeded in keeping North American’s lines open until FY1943 when the true Mustang could be ordered in vast numbers.

 

The A-36 uses an upgraded version of the familiar V-1710 engine, which along with its slick Mustang aerodynamics make it very fast at low level. Its six forward firing AN/M2 .50 guns, two of which are synchronised through the propeller, make it a very capable fighter in addition to its attack role. In recognition of this, the A-36As were all sent to the Mediterranean to equip two ‘Fighter-Bomber Groups’ and, while they saw most of their service in the bomber role, they racked up a fair number of air kills on the way.

 

The A-36 is probably most closely associated with the reduction of Pantelleria, but it provided a valuable and almost unique precision dive-attack capability to Allied forces throughout the campaign, being able to make vertical dives at high speed. Aircraft from the 27 FBG landed in Sicily two days after the first troops, as soon as an airfield could be secured, which goes some way to indicate the priorities of the experienced air commanders running the operation. In subsequent operations loss rates to flak were quite high, which many sources blame on the fragile pressurised liquid cooling system but honestly is probably due to the fact that being hit by cannon fire is bad for planes. Wikipedia also attempts to claim that the Germans called them “screaming helldivers”, which is the only name which I’ll wager the Apache-Invader-Mustang never carried.

North American B-25C/D

A B-25D of the USAAF in North Africa during the lead-up operations to Husky.

 

Everyone knows about the B-25 in the Italian theatre. If you fly it, you're crazy and can't fly it, if you don't fly it, you're sane and have to fly it.

 

You would think that this aircraft needs no introduction, but from looking at what people expect of the B-25 in Il-2 on the forums and Discords, I actually think it’s better that I write one. The 1943 service B-25C/D is not a B-25G, it’s not a B-25J and it’s not a magical panacea to the perceived lack of Allied medium bombers in Il-2. What it is is a great aircraft in its own right and the correct choice for Il-2 right now. It’s the model we already have, it’s the majority USAAF bomber in the MTO, the majority RAF Mitchell in the ETO and the majority Soviet B-25 variant. Defensive firepower outmatches the A-20B, its inevitable point of comparison, with two Browning .50s in each of the 360 degree dorsal and ventral turrets, two more in waist positions and another for the bombardier in the front, plus a fixed .50 for ground strafing and showing off. On the other hand, the B-25 uses the same engines as the A-20B on a heavier and less aerodynamic aircraft, making it slower. Bomb load is a point for debate: While the maximum bomb load can involve a torpedo, six 454kg AP bombs, three 454kg GP bombs or a 907kg GP bomb on a special rack, I don’t feel that any of the loads actually approach the flexibility of the 16x 100kg load on the A-20B we have. The aircraft can carry eight internal ‘300lb’ GP bombs, which were apparently rubbish and therefore more or less equivalent to the 100kgs, or else twelve internal 100lb bombs which are smaller than the 50kgs that German bombers have. External racks can bring the aircraft up to a total of eight more 250lb or 300lb weapons but that’s still only as good as the A-20 and the external racks will make the speed difference even more significant. The B-25 will be a historically and tactically important aircraft in Il-2 and will present new options for an Allied bomber pilot, but it is not a simple replacement for the A-20B.

 

The B-25 flew with both the Tactical and Strategic Air Forces over Sicily, with sixteen different USAAF squadrons making it the most common medium bomber in theatre. They took part in all descriptions of operations, from shipping strike to strategic bombing of factories and infrastructure to airfield suppression to the extremely hairy close air support mentioned in the Historical section. The aircraft were generally well liked, with the exception of Joseph Heller, and their sturdiness was one of the drivers behind Italian adoption of the 20mm MG 151/20. The inability of the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica to continue operating from Sicily during the campaign is attributable in significant part to the bombing of the B-25 fleet.

 

Macchi C. 205 Veltro (Collector)

A C. 205 Serie I of 360 Sqn, 51 Stormo during the fighting for Sicily.

 

Let me first of all explain the (Collector) bit of this heading, then I’ll get into the Macchi bit. I recognise that it’s somewhat unfair to lock away the out-and-out best fighter of the module behind the additional price of the Collector edition, although with the Fw 190A-3, La-5, Fw 190D-9 and Spitfire Mk. XIV all having a decent argument for being the best fighter of their module it’s hardly unique. The reason for this comes down to Italian squadron organisation in WW2, which was typically not very organised. As a result, all units with C. 205s would have a preponderance of C. 202s with some C. 205s sprinkled in. If you care to fly Italian aircraft, let us be honest, you have probably already bought the wonderful C. 202 from Battle for Moscow and will not begrudge the additional price to fly in the historical mixed squadrons. If you are indifferent to Italian aircraft, new or have otherwise not ended up with the C. 202, you can purchase the basic edition and fly the similar Re. 2001 in its much more homogenous squadrons (Re. 2005s were much rarer) and decide if you enjoy Italian fighters before you buy the 202 and 205.

 

Anyway, the Macchi C. 205 was the most numerous and therefore most successful of the Italian ‘Serie 5’ fighters. After their successes with the DB 601 engine, the Italian government purchased a license for the DB 605 engine familiar to us from the Bf 109G series and embarked on a programme to produce equivalent fighters. The Macchi effort was essentially just a C. 202 with the new engine fitted to it, but for a few detail changes and an enlarged tail to deal with the torque increase. As the C. 202 we have is to the Bf 109E-7, the C. 205 is to the Bf 109G-2, being a 1943 aircraft without permission to use the 1.42 ATA boost setting. Compared to the G-2, the 205 has a worse power/weight ratio which gives it inferior climb and acceleration, but is perhaps slightly faster flat out at low altitudes and can choose to carry either a pair of 12.7mm Bredas and a pair of 7.7mm Bredas as the Serie I, giving it a significant manoeuvrability advantage, or it can swap the MMGs for a pair of 20mm MG 151/20s, giving it a significant firepower advantage without the attendant drag of the Bf 109G-4/R6’s gondola cannons. Either way, the C. 205 is an extremely credible threat to Allied fighters into 1944, especially if they received the rumoured 1.42 ATA clearance later in the war.

 

In service, the C. 205 saw the majority of its combat over Sicily. Their first combat deployment was to Pantelleria, where they resisted Allied air attack until grounded or destroyed, and around a hundred C. 205s saw service in the main Sicilian campaign, from bases on Sicily, Calabria and Sardinia.  After the Armistice they mostly saw service with the ANR, although uniquely among all Italian fighters the Germans of II/JG 77 deployed them as a frontline fighter for a few months at the end of 1943. Allied impressions of their handling and capability were very positive, with many expressing relief that so few C. 205s were built compared to other, inferior types.

 

Reggiane Re. 2001

Literally the only decent picture of an Re. 2001 in squadron service on the internet.

 

Somehow, Reggiane always ended up producing the bridesmaids instead of the brides. None of the four major fighter designs they put into service during WW2 really had anything wrong with them, but they were unusually fiddly in production even by Italian standards. Their first attempt, the Re. 2000, was similar to the C. 200 and G. 50 and is most famous for its service with the Royal Hungarian Air Force, a statement that damns with faint praise if ever one did. The Reggiane Re. 2001 was then similar to the Macchi C. 202, an upgrade of an underpowered radial engined fighter with the newly licensed DB 601 engine, but it never became the same sort of icon. Part of this is the limited production run, only 252 aircraft between all variants to the Macchi design's nearly 2000, due to the difficulty of production and engine priority being given to the C. 202 and other types. But I don't think that's really the full explanation: How many famous aircraft can you think of that had fewer than 250 built in series? Probably quite a few.

 

The Reggiane never went to the desert. While the Macchi tangled with Kittyhawks and Hurricanes over Tobruk, the Regiannes spent their time escorting bombers to Malta and back. They were perfectly successful in this role, being admired for their manoeuvrability even if they were noticeably slower than the Macchi. This resulted in almost all of the Re. 2001 fleet being concentrated in Sicily, which meant that they were a common type during Operation Husky. 71 aircraft were active on Sicily in the first days of the operation, and only 6 were evacuated successfully. After the Italian Armistice most Re. 2001s ended up in Co-Belligerent service, where they saw reasonable success over the Balkans. With a short, inglorious service career with the Axis, much of their subsequent use in a theatre nobody remembers and few remaining in museums, no wonder everyone forgets it.

 

A few different variants of Re. 2001 were built. The main production aircraft had two Breda .50s in the nose and two rifle calibre MGs in the wings like most Italian aircraft. The CB fighter bomber variant could carry a maximum of two 160kg bombs and a 250kg centreline, which is an unusually high payload for an Axis fighter (exceeding everything before the 190A-6 in terms of practical utility, IMO). The CN variant is theoretically a night fighter, but its only adaptations for the role were some flame suppressors and a pair of MG 151/20s in wing gondolas and I think it was used as a day fighter over Sicily given that almost half of the production was CNs. Finally, the rare G/V variant was modified to be able to carry a 15" battleship shell to pierce the decks of British armoured carriers. Two were dropped with a single hit, which dudded, and the Regia Aeronautica gave up on the idea, but a number of aircraft were modified to the standard and I think all CN night fighters were also given the reinforced rack to carry drop tanks, so I'd allow it as a separate modification and people can turn it off on their missions and servers if they hate fun.

Reggiane Re. 2002

The aggressive lines of a pair of Re. 2002s of 239 Sqn from 5. Stormo, based at Tarquinia.

 

The Re. 2002 is a close cousin of the 2001, using essentially the same airframe but falling back on an alternate engine after Alfa-Romeo were unable to provide sufficient DB 601s. The engine was the decent, by Italian standards, Piaggio XIX and was essentially just an increased compression version of the Piaggio IX on the Re. 2000. Generating about the same power as the 2001 with a draggier engine installation, the 2002 was commensurately slower than the 2001 and as a result was built entirely on the CB airframe and used as a strike aircraft. It was not really a preferred type, but I think it will be interesting to see how players feel about the way the two aircraft match up, one of the most pure comparisons of the radial versus inline debate that can be achieved. Plus, with the Seversky-Republic inspired lines, I think it's a really handsome plane.

 

The 2002 is another aircraft that never really made a name for itself but was instrumental in the battle for Sicily, flying from the first day to the last against Allied shipping and troop concentrations. Confirmed hits include sinking three transports, a quarter of all Allied transport losses, and damaging HMS Nelson sufficiently that she withdrew to Malta. Unlike the 2001, enough survived the Armistice of Cassibile that they continued in service with both the Salo Republic and Co-Belligerent Italy, being used for strike work on the mainland, in Yugoslavia and in German service against Maquis in France.

Caproni Ca. 314

An irritatingly grainy image of a Ca. 314, which I think is somewhere in northern Italy from the background.

 

The Ca. 314 is another Italian aircraft that I feel receives unfairly short shrift. The Ca. 31x series reconnaissance bombers were some of the most produced Italian aircraft of the war, with over 1300 being built. Of these, at least 400 were of the final 314 variant. The original Ca. 310 was developed slightly before the war as a fairly standard modern bomber, but like all Italian aircraft it was let down by issues of engine procurement. The initial Piaggio radials simply didn't generate enough power and no more powerful engines could be acquired, resulting in the RHuAF returning their aircraft in displeasure and the RNoAF attempting to do the same before the events of April 1940 voided their warranty. Britain also ordered a large number of Capronis as twin engine trainers to operate alongside the Airspeed Oxford and Avro Anson, aircraft to which it is worryingly comparable, but these were never delivered for obvious reasons. Ongoing attempts by Caproni to find a reasonable engine resulted in the fitting of air-cooled 730hp Isotta-Fraschini Delta V-12s to the Ca. 313 and 314, a very odd engine which produced a worthwhile performance benefit. The 314 series was ordered in 1941 to come in three variants: The A maritime patrol bomber, the B torpedo bomber and the C close support aircraft. All aircraft have a mid upper gunner with a Breda 12.7mm and a rear ventral gunner with a Breda 7.7mm. The A and B were equipped with a pair of forward firing Breda 12.7mms in the wing roots and either some armour and 385kg of bombs for the A or 500kg of bombs or a torpedo for the B. The C got another pair of 12.7mm guns under the nose and a payload increase allegedly to 1280kg, along with a surely much-needed upgrade to 780hp Deltas.

 

Details on the use of the 314 are quite sketchy, as I said it's an aircraft nobody seems to care about. Pilots complained of a lack of power, but the Regia Aeronautica seem to have considered it a good type because of its endless flexibility, almost like a cheapie Mosquito. Some were even issued to Night Fighter groups, I presume of the C variant. Three groups of attack aircraft went to North Africa, where they seem to have found some success, and others were used against Yugoslav and French partisan forces. Records of the positions of Ca. 314s and 313s mention them in all active Italian theatres on the 8th September 1943 and of the hundreds produced only about a hundred and fifty remain, so while I don't actually have anything relevant to their service in the battle for Sicily I'm pretty sure they were there. The alternative to the Ca. 314 would be the actual most common Italian attack aircraft on Sicily, the Fiat G. 50, but that's a very obvious pick for a future Finnish module and it's also extremely bad by 1943. The G. 50 would probably be the better commercial pick, but I like the Caproni. If you are desperate to bomb things in a quirky Italian radial fighter that struggles badly against contemporary opposition, scroll back up to the Re. 2002.

Savoia-Marchetti SM. 79

Unusually, not a parked shot because I have found the coolest picture of an SM. 79 dropping a torpedo towards HMS Barham in 1941. You all know this plane anyway.

 

Of all the Italian aircraft of WW2, the SM.79 is unquestionably the most Italian. A strange design, obsolescent looking but fairly capable, a service record more notable for individual bravery than operational success, a spotty export record and unsuitable for front-line service by 1943. Initially the SM.79 was a reasonable bomber and did fairly well in the torpedo bomber role, sinking a number of Allied merchantmen and crippling enough cruisers that the RN suffered a cruiser shortage in the Mediterranean, but its glory days are well past by the time of the invasion of Sicily. Only a few dozen of all variants were available to the Aerial Torpedo Group and the six standard Groups in Italy and while they sallied forth repeatedly, damaging the British carrier Indomitable, many were shot down in the first few days of the invasion despite operating mostly by night. Still, on the night of the 7th September 1943 an SM. 79 carried out what I think will be the last air attack on Allied forces made by the Kingdom of Italy, damaging an LST loading up for the trip to Salerno off Termini Imerese in Sicily.

 

I debated about how best to represent this aircraft in Il-2, and whether to pick this one or the superior but less iconic Z. 1007, but I think my hands are tied. The SM. 79bis didn’t arrive in particularly large numbers and turned up so late that it’s almost specific to Sicily, plus it doesn’t have a bomb bay (I think, sources contradict). The Z. 1007 is as good as a He 111H and I had started typing its description, but then I remembered nobody uses the He 111H in multiplayer because it’s crap so why compromise for capability. You’re getting the full-blown, 780hp-engined, shambling hunchback herself: The SM. 79 no suffix.

 

I usually list things that an aircraft is good at, but I’m not sure if that’s useful here so I’m going to list why it’s interesting instead: The SM. 79 can carry a single Whitehead torpedo externally or 1200kg of internal bombs, which is fine and includes 500kg internal bombs that the German aircraft don’t. It’s slow as hell, but its defensive armament includes two Breda 12.7mms in dorsal and ventral turrets and another fixed forward above the pilot which is actually a fairly credible defensive armament. The wing is unusually small for an aircraft of its size, which is compensated for by good flaps and automatic leading edge slats like a severely obese Bf 109. Some aircraft have ‘improved’ versions of the Alfa-Romeo 126 engines but I think all this actually comes out to is the addition of an Emergency Power setting so you can flog your engines to death and then get shot down instead of just getting shot down. Overall, this is a terrible aircraft more suitable for 1941 than 1943, but if all you want to do is fly the best aircraft in Il-2 then buy Bodenplatte and enjoy your 262. If you try the SM. 79 every bomb hit, every torpedo run and every miraculous fighter kill with the forward Breda will feel like an achievement.

Summary

Sicily isn’t exactly a new idea, but I think that this is a different way of doing it. We can include five Italian aircraft here and then have a second Italy module for the battle on the mainland to encompass the other Serie 5 fighters which were more notable for their service with the Salo Republic. As always, any comments, thoughts, supplemental suggestions or corrections are welcomed. I speak less Italian than Brad Pitt and I know we have some knowledgeable Italian contributors on here.

[SqueakyS]

Honestly I think the Beaufort should replace the beaufighter and the beaufighter should replace the Mitchell. My reasoning is that this is probably the only time we will ever see a well modeled Beuafort unless we get a Battle of Malta and the beaufort was an unsung contributer to the Med thetre. we already have a B-25 but don't have anything like the Beafort in the game at the moment.

[357th_KW]

I love this map/period idea in general, and I love Mustangs, but I’d lean towards a P-38G over the A-36.  

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

27 minutes ago, SqueakyS said:

Honestly I think the Beaufort should replace the beaufighter and the beaufighter should replace the Mitchell. My reasoning is that this is probably the only time we will ever see a well modeled Beuafort unless we get a Battle of Malta and the beaufort was an unsung contributer to the Med thetre. we already have a B-25 but don't have anything like the Beafort in the game at the moment.

Honestly, I picked the B-25 because we already have an external model for it. From what Jason has said previously the big multicrew medium bombers seem to be expensive for 1C to produce, so any efficiencies that can be made by ameliorating the cost of producing a big bomber across two modules make this a better approach to take. I'd love to have the Beaufort as well, I'm a huge Bristol fan, but as you say it only really fits this theatre and the B-25 is usable in four of the five modules we already have (Stalingrad, Kuban, Normandy, Bodenplatte).

 

Besides, if I was going to have a unique unicorn Allied medium bomber that only saw real service in the Med I'd pick the Martin Baltimore. Now there is an unsung aircraft. ?

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Me too I think Sicily would be the best choice for the next expansion.

I like your plane set also but I would love to see a P40 N too.

The Fiat G55 would be interesting to have as well.

 

With so much sea instead of land, it would also be interesting to get more navigation options (choosing the base to be guided to, asking for a morse signal to get home vectored, control over course setters in the planes that had them).

 

Have a nice day.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by FlyingShark

[DBFlyguy]

Very well thought out and definitely would bring something new to the WWII air combat sim genre!  Has my vote ? Now, if we could actually get the devs on board ?

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

1 hour ago, FlyingShark said:

With so much sea instead of land, it would also be interesting to get more navigation options (choosing the base to be guided to, asking for a morse signal to get home vectored, control over course setters in the planes that had them).

I quite agree, even just an improvement of the radio homing system would be great for the game. On the other hand, in decent weather conditions and at moderate altitude there are enough bits of land on this map that you can probably manage alright with visual navigation, and the course of the campaign means that you are almost always flying to or from Sicily, which is slap in the middle and has a giant smoking mountain on it.

[Mtnbiker1998]

I'm super pro-Italy as the next DLC, But I'd really hope theres a P-38G in there somewhere. The P-38 we have is an absolute blast, but in the latewar scenarios we have its really only suitable as a ground attacker. I'd love to see it in mid-war where it's a fast-as-hell frontline fighter, the "fork tailed Devil" at its peak. Maybe replacing the Spitfire (since we already have the Vb) or the B-25 (hopefully we'll get the D as a collector soon enough)?

 

I do really love the idea of the P-51A though, especially with a mod for the 20mm cannons! (and I have a strange craving for what-if battle of Moscow scenarios, anyone else? lol) Another P-40 would also be excellent for all the reasons you posted.

 

and of course, I'd be super excited to see the Italians take the lead for once, we are running low on German planes to be added to the game. I'd imagine a lot of these would also be super useful for Eastern front missions aswell.

[Props]

At the risk of being redundant due to my previous posts on the forum I too can definitely get on board with a Battle of Sicily expansion, especially if it were to include some of mainland Italy like Salerno, and the Normandy assets for the amphibious assaults would be at home on this map too. I will forever hold out hope for the Pacific, but I can definitely get excited about Sicily if that happens. 

[sevenless]

Very cool. If they would do it, I´d buy it in a heartbeat.

 

15 hours ago, SqueakyS said:

Honestly I think the Beaufort should replace the beaufighter and the beaufighter should replace the Mitchell. 

 

Blenheim, Beaufort, Beaufighter. We need all of them and the Wellington. ?

Edited October 27, 2021 by sevenless

[CountZero]

It would be great if they do something like that, if they cant do any PTO is 2nd best, but i expect we are going back to east front for next DLC.

Also B-25 is probably next collector airplane so you can place something els there.

Edited October 27, 2021 by CountZero

[BMA_FlyingShark]

30 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Also B-25 is probably next collector airplane so you can place something els there.

Like Mtnbiker said, an early P38.

Would be fine for me.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[No105_Swoose]

My compliments sir!  You make an excellent case for a Battle of Sicily DLC and its associated stock and collector planes.  Reminds me of the phrase from Monty Python, "And now for something completely different".  Hope the developers are reading this thread.   Like many others I strongly hope for the Pacific in some form, even without aircraft carriers, but that's doubtful for the reasons you've stated.  Battle of Sicily would be a great alternative.  However, if Las Vegas bookmakers were making odds, my hunch would be that we'll see late war Eastern Front, perhaps Operation Bagration (Summer 1944) or Battle of Berlin (Spring 1945)- plenty of research material available, still provides new late war plane while building on existing Luftwaffe set, has patriotic appeal to Russian-based development team, rounds out Eastern Front campaigns, etc.  Whatever Jason and the development team make for the follow-on to Battle of Normandy I'll buy it.  My hat's off to them-  it's got to be tough making a business plan work in a niche (World War Two combat flight sims) within a niche (flight simulations overall).  Swoose

Edited October 27, 2021 by No105_Swoose
Corrected typos

[CountZero]

Also i would replaced Spit Vs with Spit VIII:

Brief Operational History

 

The first production Spitfire F VIII (JF.274) was delivered in November 1942. 126 and 145 Squadrons went operational with Spitfire VIIIs in June 1943 while based on Malta.1 Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily, commenced on 10 July 1943. On this date there were 23 Spitfire fighter squadrons based on Malta flying a mix of Spitfire Vs, VIIIs and IXs which provided cover for the invasion. 244 Wing moved to Pachino, Sicily on 13 July. 244 Wing (1 SAAF, 92, 145, 417 and 601 squadrons) as well as the 308th FS 31st FG USAAF used the Spitfire VIII during the Sicily campaign. The battle for Sicily was over by mid August. On 3 September 1943 British forces landed at Reggio, Italy, followed by the Allied landing at Salerno on the 9th. 324 Wing was the first unit to move to Italy, flying in to Paestum on 12 September. Spitfire VIIIs were used widely in Italy from September 1943 to war's end. Units known to have used the Spitfire VIII in Italy are: 244 Wing: 92, 145, 417, 601 squadrons. VIIIs predominately/exclusively.2 3 4 5 324 Wing: 43, 72, 93, 111, squadrons. Mix of VIIIs and IXs 31st FG USAAF: 307th, 308th squadrons. 308th was equipped with VIIIs exclusively 1 SAAF, 32, 73, 87, 185, 253, 256 squadrons. Note: listing incomplete http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

Yeah, I've been back and forth on what to do with the Spitfire VIII. If people generally consider that the Spitfire Vb we have is 'close enough' for the Vcs so common in the Med then I might switch the Mk.VIII in, it's a plane I love and it never turns up in flight sims but there weren't terribly many available for the start of Husky.

 

For the B-25, I know there are a series of clues pointing towards it as the next collector plane, but all of those clues could equally point at the B-26, which would also be a valid subject for this module. When 1C announce the B-25 I will swap it to a different torpedo carrying medium bomber and not before.

[CountZero]

If no pto, italy is only chance of spitviii so its better option, and when you look at total set you dont have any big performance airplanes in it so you have to have some airplanes to atract players who are not interested, on axis side thats 205 on allied it would be spit viii.

[ITAF_Rani]

1 hour ago, No105_Swoose said:

My compliments sir!  You make an excellent case for a Battle

I agree, excellent.

I would consider P 38 also.

[ITAF_LittleMadz77]

I'd love to play it! OMG the SM79....

[357th_KW]

One big benefit of doing this theater would be the opportunity to focus some resources on ships and torpedos that would be needed for the pacific without needing to add in aircraft carriers right off the bat.

 

In regards to Spitfire variants, the other one that could apply here is an early “round tail” Spit IX with Merlin 61/63/66 options.  The nice thing about that choice is that it would help flesh out BoN/BoBp and any earlier channel operations people want to do.  Hopefully we’d eventually end up with all 3 options through collector aircraft.

[Mtnbiker1998]

Theres so many different great Allied aircraft that could work for this DLC. P-38G, P-40F/L/N, P-39Q, A-36, A-20G, Spitfires VII or IX early, Beaufighters, B-25s, I'd imagine its gonna be really hard for the devs to pick just 5. 

 

Maybe if we're really lucky we can get Battle of Italy Parts 1 and 2, lol.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

7 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

Maybe if we're really lucky we can get Battle of Italy Parts 1 and 2, lol.

Maybe that would be a good idea, splitting it up in an early and a later part so that we can get all those planes in the game.

There are indeed a lot of interesting planes suited for that theater and choosing would be hard for the devs and for us, the users, there would always some interesting stuff missing if they don't split it up and keep to the 5 vs 5 formula.

Another idea would be to make the Battle of Sicily with the usual 5 vs 5 formula and then sell the rest of the plane set as an add on.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[ITAF_Rani]

Sicily 1943

 

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

I'm still thinking about the Spitfire VIIIc and I'm really not sure that it's more different from aircraft we have than the Vc.

 

Spitfire VIII compared to LF IX we have

• Option of inferior Merlin 63 engine
• Option of extended wingtips
• Marginally different airframe
• Same pointed tail
• Same air intake
• Same improved canopy
• 2x 20mm/4x .303 instead of .50s

Spitfire Vc compared to Vb we have

• Different carburettors on engines for different neg G concerns
• Marginally different airframe
• +18lb boost setting
• Option of bombs
• Option of slipper tanks(?)
• Option of 4x 20mm, extremely different handling and firepower
• Option of clipped wings

In future installments I intend to talk about

Spoiler

Spitfire F.IXc (early) with Merlin 61/63 and Seafire L.IIc with the four blade prop and cropped Merlin 32 that lets it outclimb an LF Mk.IX for the first 5000ft while being worse in a straight line than a late Mk.Vc

which rather fill the gaps between the Vc and IXe without a lot of room for the VIII. No doubt a plane I love, but one that I think can only be a collector type for the module at best. Therefore, the Vc stays.

[Gambit21]

It’s better than a kick in the teeth - but only interested in PTO at this juncture.

[Vig]

S.M.79 in Sicily but no torpedoes?  That doesn't work for me.  I love the Italian planes but the choices listed are not balanced against the list fielded by the Allies.  Malta might be better, with Gladiators and Hurricanes.  At least both sides would have rifle-caliber weapons.  

[BMA_FlyingShark]

13 minutes ago, Vig said:

S.M.79 in Sicily but no torpedoes?

Just 'cause there's no torpedoes now doesn't mean they can't make them in a next, it doesn't even matter if it's Sicily or the Pacific.

 

15 minutes ago, Vig said:

Malta might be better, with Gladiators and Hurricanes.

Gladiators and Hurricanes (I), would be too much CLOD concurrence which they will avoid.

16 minutes ago, Vig said:

At least both sides would have rifle-caliber weapons.

Jason isn't interested in that, the same reason why there will be no Finnish theater.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

2 hours ago, FlyingShark said:

Jason isn't interested in that, the same reason why there will be no Finnish theater.

I don't think I've ever seen Jason say he's not interested in doing stuff with rifle calibre weapons, I've said that I'm not but that my personal viewpoint and may change after the big damage overhaul that has been trailed.

3 hours ago, Vig said:

S.M.79 in Sicily but no torpedoes?  That doesn't work for me.  I love the Italian planes but the choices listed are not balanced against the list fielded by the Allies.  Malta might be better, with Gladiators and Hurricanes.  At least both sides would have rifle-caliber weapons.  

I am assuming torpedoes will be developed for this module, additional game features are being added all the time and we've got that mod that demonstrates air launched torpedoes are possible, so it's just a question of it going to the top of the Dev priority list. Sicily would certainly bump it upwards in importance and with that in mind 4/10 aircraft in my suggested set are torpedo carriers.

 

In terms of choice balance I feel like you're badly underrating the firepower of the Breda 12.7mms, with the HE round they're remarkably effective and certainly much better than rifle calibres. The Italian fighters are also available with 20mm guns in the wings, which ought to be enough firepower for anybody. Personally I'd rate the Macchi as the best fighter in this lineup, then the Spit, then the P-40 and Re. 2001 about even stevens. The A-36 outperforms the Re. 2002 significantly (although IMO it's a worse bomber) and the Beaufighter is better than the Ca. 314 by a country mile, but the rankings of strike aircraft aren't really important for what is traditionally termed 'balance'.

 

The question of whether the choices are balanced is also somewhat moot. Of the five current modules out or announced, none have what I would call a balanced plane set. The Fw 190A-3, Bf 109F-2, Bf 109G-4/Fw 190A-5, Me 262 and Spitfire Mk XIV/P-51B are all such a performance step above their opposition that good pilots of equal skill should never lose with them. The presence of collector aircraft, mixing of planes between modules and limitations on the number of advanced aircraft in multiplayer provide sufficient balancing factors for the choices being made based on realism. The best aircraft in this module's campaign will probably be the Bf 109G-6s of the Luftwaffe anyway.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

7 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I don't think I've ever seen Jason say he's not interested in doing stuff with rifle calibre weapons, I've said that I'm not but that my personal viewpoint and may change after the big damage overhaul that has been trailed.

Ah, I see, sorry, I misinterpreted that.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Vig]

Well, I'd like to see it either way.  The Italian aircraft interest me very much, as do the French.  The M.S. 406 and the G.50 were highlights of the original IL2 series for me.  I have tried CLOD repeatedly and it just doesn't appeal. 

 

I understand the business reasons staying away from CLOD's theaters, but I don't think they will be effective in doing anything but crippling BoX.  Pick one and run with it, unless the plan is to abandon both for a new sim with a new engine that can do the things BoX cannot.

[Mtnbiker1998]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:32 PM, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I'm still thinking about the Spitfire VIIIc and I'm really not sure that it's more different from aircraft we have than the Vc.

 

Spitfire VIII compared to LF IX we have

• Option of inferior Merlin 63 engine
• Option of extended wingtips
• Marginally different airframe
• Same pointed tail
• Same air intake
• Same improved canopy
• 2x 20mm/4x .303 instead of .50s

Spitfire Vc compared to Vb we have

• Different carburettors on engines for different neg G concerns
• Marginally different airframe
• +18lb boost setting
• Option of bombs
• Option of slipper tanks(?)
• Option of 4x 20mm, extremely different handling and firepower
• Option of clipped wings

In future installments I intend to talk about

  Reveal hidden contents

Spitfire F.IXc (early) with Merlin 61/63 and Seafire L.IIc with the four blade prop and cropped Merlin 32 that lets it outclimb an LF Mk.IX for the first 5000ft while being worse in a straight line than a late Mk.Vc

which rather fill the gaps between the Vc and IXe without a lot of room for the VIII. No doubt a plane I love, but one that I think can only be a collector type for the module at best. Therefore, the Vc stays.

Honestly, do we really even need another Spitfire in the game? We already have three of them and theres a ton of other great aircraft that would fit this time period. We only get 5 slots, we gotta make em count!

[[CPT]Crunch]

By the time this module would even be considered let alone entered into work, CLOD will have had sufficient time to sink or swim.  One shouldn't be obligated to run interference for them forever, that's definitely not a mark of any sort of commercial success.  You were gentlemen long enough, time for them to stand on their own feet or fade away.

[Enceladus828]

15 hours ago, Vig said:

I understand the business reasons staying away from CLOD's theaters, but I don't think they will be effective in doing anything but crippling BoX

Staying away from the MTO and BoB won't cripple IL-2 GBs/BoX as they have enough places that they can do such as Berlin, Finland, Barbarossa, Bagration, the Pacific and even South East Asia. Also, Jason said that it takes roughly 2.5 years to develop an installment. A number of Collector maps can be released such as Crimea, Odessa, Hungary, Italy 1944 and Italy 1945, and a TC installment covering El Alamein can be released and that won't interfere with CloD.

 

[-250H-Ursus_]

Serie 5 fighters should be included as the standard planes.
Arguably Re.2005 as a collector because is a unicorn, could be another plane with no issue.

 

Fiat G.55, in was already on use in 1943, And was numerous than Re.2005 by example. At least MC205 should be a standard plane. G-55 as collector (if not Re.2005 which saw combat)

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by -332FG-Ursus_

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

3 minutes ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

Serie 5 fighters should be included as the standard planes.
Arguably Re.2005 as a collector because is a unicorn, could be another plane with no issue.

 

Fiat G.55, in 1943, by example.

 

The Re. 2005 actually saw more action over Sicily than the G. 55 did, the G. 55 ended up the more numerous of the two but that was because it continued in production under German auspices. My sincere belief is that Italy is too big a subject to blow all of on one module and ten aircraft. Here's my current provisional list for Salerno, along with carrier ops:

 

Allies: Martlet IV (Collector), Seafire L.IIc, P-38G, P-40N, B-26

 

Axis: ? (Collector), G. 55, Re. 2005, Bf 109G-5, Do 217K-2

 

Still need to do all the write-up and justification for it and I still need to finalise my list of aircraft suggestions, but the Salerno and Sicily modules are intended to intermesh perfectly, both covering half of the important aircraft and with one starting on the day the other ends.

 

Now, you probably can just about wedge this all into one module: The three Serie 5 fighters and the Sparviero and a Reggiane against P-38G, P-40F, Spitfire, A-36, B-25. I think this misses out on a lot of the opportunities the Med affords us, and that's the point I intend to make by doing two modules like this.

[-250H-Ursus_]

3 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

The Re. 2005 actually saw more action over Sicily than the G. 55 did, the G. 55 ended up the more numerous of the two but that was because it continued in production under German auspices. My sincere belief is that Italy is too big a subject to blow all of on one module and ten aircraft. Here's my current provisional list for Salerno, along with carrier ops:

 

Allies: Martlet IV (Collector), Seafire L.IIc, P-38G, P-40N, B-26

 

Axis: ? (Collector), G. 55, Re. 2005, Bf 109G-5, Do 217K-2

 

Still need to do all the write-up and justification for it and I still need to finalise my list of aircraft suggestions, but the Salerno and Sicily modules are intended to intermesh perfectly, both covering half of the important aircraft and with one starting on the day the other ends.

 

Now, you probably can just about wedge this all into one module: The three Serie 5 fighters and the Sparviero and a Reggiane against P-38G, P-40F, Spitfire, A-36, B-25. I think this misses out on a lot of the opportunities the Med affords us, and that's the point I intend to make by doing two modules like this.

Idk, i think that i'm thinking with the big picture of all Italy in mind, not only Sicily. Thats why i am asking all Series 5 because in the end those plane will end fighting P-51s and Spit IXs P47s etc etc.
But that could lead to weird situations like Allied italian planes vs Axis Italian planes depending on the date.

Edited October 30, 2021 by -332FG-Ursus_

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

4 hours ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

But that could lead to weird situations like Allied italian planes vs Axis Italian planes depending on the date.

Oh, that's half the fun! Although I know Italian never fought Italian, the Co-Belligerent Air Force was specifically assigned to the Balkans to prevent it, it's quite possible that Italians in Italian aircraft flights Croatian Ustase in Italian aircraft that they purchased or took over after the Armistice. Sounds like fun to me, mirror matchups where the skill of the pilot is the only influencing factor.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

Lots of footage from the battle.

 

 

 

 

[Vig]

 

10 hours ago, Enceladus said:

Staying away from the MTO and BoB won't cripple IL-2 GBs/BoX as they have enough places that they can do such as Berlin, Finland, Barbarossa, Bagration, the Pacific and even South East Asia. Also, Jason said that it takes roughly 2.5 years to develop an installment. A number of Collector maps can be released such as Crimea, Odessa, Hungary, Italy 1944 and Italy 1945, and a TC installment covering El Alamein can be released and that won't interfere with CloD.

 

 

Yeah, no.  Berlin without heavy bombers is absurd.  The Pacific has been ruled out on the grounds of insufficient research material.  Finland would be fine with me but not, apparently, with many.  Further Eastern Front titles have very little support given the opinions expressed in the forums.  I would not want to throw my own money into financing the work for Crimea, Odessa, or Hungary expansions.  Late-war Italy is a post-Italy backwater that would please only a few aesthetes.  The earlier MTO offers promise, variety, and fresh aircraft in which many have expressed a keen interest.  A French map is already available and BoF might be successful based on the large French community that has been involved in the game since IL2 1946.

 

In any event, I don't want to argue.  Enough.  If the game dies, the game dies.  Yesterday I booted up RoF and IL2 1946 for the first time in many years, and found the RoF experience to be superior and the IL2 1946 experience to be a lot of fun - which, in the view of many, is the point of a game.  I am prepared to let this go if it comes to that - and I don't think that is the degree of enthusiasm that a game developer is hoping for.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Vig

[Pict]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:16 PM, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Let's repeat the core assumptions:

- We can't do anything CloD already does, it's eating 1C's own lunch.

 

I just don't agree with this. CloD is an old game compared to BOX, a new issue of BOX sells more copies and at a much higher price than CloD. And it's available to everyone, not just people who are prepared to use Steam, so larger market right off the blocks.

 

CloD has aldeady hogged the BoB scenario for a very long time, initially affecting the continued development of the original IL2 by TD and we are expected to let it hog others. That time has to pass eventually and the sooner the better for BOX.

[Eisenfaustus]

51 minutes ago, Pict said:

And it's available to everyone, not just people who are prepared to use Steam, so larger market right off the blocks.

I think the potential market that is opened up by this is not as big as you imagine

 

9 hours ago, Vig said:

Yeah, no.  Berlin without heavy bombers is absurd.

I disagree - there was plenty of tactical air combat in that area as well. By the same argument Rhineland would have been absurd too...

 

9 hours ago, Vig said:

Further Eastern Front titles have very little support given the opinions expressed in this forums.

I took the liberty to correct that statement a little. It seems to me that the Russian speaking part of the community is actually quite large and their views are not mirrored in our forum. And Yaks still seem quite popular - so I can't imagine a pack with a Yak-3 in it not to sell...

 

I for one feel that the sim is incomplete without a late war eastern front module.

 

9 hours ago, Vig said:

A French map is already available and BoF might be successful based on the large French community that has been involved in the game since IL2 1946.

I hope for it - don't believe in it

 

 

 

All in all MTO wouldn't be my first choice but I'd propably get it anyway at some point ^^