HOTAS Curves for each plane

[US41_Low]

Instead of a universal curve system, it would be nice if Il2 was capable of individual curve profiles per plane (like RoF / DCS etc).

[SharpeXB]

Yes. Including the ability to make the curves asymmetric. This is just about mandatory in order to make the aircraft controllable. Unless you’re using an extension combined with a FFB stick which I will assume most players do not have. It was a very important feature in RoF and without it FC just isn’t playable. 
This is a great explanation about why it’s needed.

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/2564-about-wrong-elevator-position-and-pitch-sensitive/?fromsearch=1

 

FC is turning out to be a beautiful game but without the custom curves these aircraft are just uncontrollable. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by SharpeXB

[GOZR]

True

[J2_Bidu]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:17 PM, SharpeXB said:

FC is turning out to be a beautiful game but without the custom curves these aircraft are just uncontrollable. 

 

I fully agree that it is a desirable feature. I can accept that with some hardware there may be specific ptoblems that might be solved by this. But there is not a single plane in FC that is currently uncontrollable as a rule. I don't have the fanciest of setups and fly each and every one of them, and those I speak with don't report this consistently. I would go so far as to say it's not an issue for them, although some may complain a bit that DR1 noses up too much, or something like that.

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

But there is not a single plane in FC that is currently uncontrollable as a rule

Ok but very very difficult compared to RoF. If you read the link you realize there’s nothing realistic about controlling a PC sim airplane with a spring centered tabletop joystick like most people have. You’d need an FFB stick (which are no longer made) with a full length extension in order to approach anything near reality.

Edited December 21, 2021 by SharpeXB

[J2_Bidu]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Ok but very very difficult compared to RoF. If you read the link you realize there’s nothing realistic about controlling a PC sim airplane with a spring centered tabletop joystick like most people have. You’d need an FFB stick (which are no longer made) with a full length extension in order to approach anything near reality.

 

I use a Warthog, and I prefer it to the MSFFB2 that I bought second-hand. I honestly don't see much difference compared to ROF, I never really used curves there unless at a specific time in which I had a really bad joystick (the Speedlink BlackWidow) which was spiking. So when I started playing FC it was pretty much the same. But I do have rudder pedals, and that makes a lot of difference. Are you flying with pedals? What exactly is your greatest annoyance? Could it be something you might configure in the joystick itself? Mine had a slight weird roll which I corrected with some software tool (I can dig that out for you if you want, but I think it was Warthog specific, not sure).

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

Are you flying with pedals? What exactly is your greatest annoyance?

I do have pedals. And have played RoF since 2010. The annoyance is simply how sensitive the pitch axis is, again due to the above explanation in the link. It’s not possible to address this with a response curve since the aircraft (except 2) don’t have trim controls. Look at the link and the how and why RoF dealt with this. That was really the right approach instead of trying to build a curve into the game, make the game just 1:1 and let the player adjust. But now there’s no adjustment. 

[J2_Bidu]

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I do have pedals. And have played RoF since 2010. The annoyance is simply how sensitive the pitch axis is, again due to the above explanation in the link. It’s not possible to address this with a response curve since the aircraft (except 2) don’t have trim controls. Look at the link and the how and why RoF dealt with this. That was really the right approach instead of trying to build a curve into the game, make the game just 1:1 and let the player adjust. But now there’s no adjustment. 

 

Well, I have never flown a real plane, least to say one of these we're "flying" here, so I don't know what to expect. I know some people who used curves, having a choice is  better most of the times, and I also fully support features that help people make the most of their already expensive hardware, I believe that actually lowers the overall cost of playing the game, which is great for everyone. Even worse when you lose something you had, right? I would also enjoy having different control sets for each plane, with or without the curves, for the very same reasons.

Edited December 22, 2021 by J2_Bidu
spchck

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

Well, I have never flow a real plane, least to say one of these we're "flying" here, so I don't know what to expect.

That link explains everything really. A real control stick is a longer lever, less sensitive. It’s centering force is aerodynamic, not a spring in the center of the travel etc.

[Cynic_Al]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:24 AM, US93_Low said:

it would be nice if Il2 was capable of individual curve profiles per plane

 

What system fitted to a real aircraft of the period, would be emulated by response curves?

 

 

[=IRFC=kotori87]

I think SharpeXB said it best. A real control stick is longer, less sensitive, and most importantly has aerodynamic centering force. I have no problem flying a variety of different planes because I have a FFB joystick, so I can feel what the plane wants to do, buta basic spring-centered twist-handle joystick simply cannot do that. Even with FFB the transition from flying an SE5a to flying a Dr.1 is a jarring transition. I can't imagine what it's like with a spring-centered joystick.

 

So it's not really about historical realism, it's a gamer's aid to make the game more playable for more people. Personally I think that is a good thing. Just a question of developer time and resources.

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:20 AM, Cynic_Al said:

 

What system fitted to a real aircraft of the period, would be emulated by response curves?

 

 

 

The length of the control stick and the actual sensitivity of the aircraft. Flying from our desks with plastic spring centred joysticks are not remotely equivalent to how aircraft, particularly older ones, feel to fly. A control response that takes 5cm of stick travel in a real camel takes significantly less movement on your control stick at home. Meaning the real pilot is much more capable of accurate and precise control, whereas we have to be extremely precise with very sensitive controls to replicate that. For most of the planes in the sim, universal curves are good enough to correct this. But for a few (looking at you Dr1), the universal curve doesn't work because the stick already needs so much forward travel to keep the aircraft in neutral. For those aircraft, specific curves range from very nice, to absolutely essential, depending on what kind of hardware you have. 

Before I got my Gladiator NXT, the Dr1 was completely impossible for me to fly, partly due to the lack of precision available, but mostly due to the wrist strain that came from holding my stick at a 45 degree angle all the time against a strong spring. It's an important accessibility feature, particularly for people with cheaper hardware.
 

Without an accurate simpit with a full length control collumn, flying with zero curves is no more 'accurate' or 'realistic' than flying with a large one. 

 

 

 

[1PL-Modzel-2Esk]

Perhaps adding a virtual stabilizer trim would be an acceptable solution? Something similar in function to what we have in Breguet 14.

Edited December 28, 2021 by 1PL-Modzel-ESzk

[Angry_Kitten]

im a thrustmaster 16000 baby and i have a constant struggle to keep the plane from helicoptering.. kills the fun too. 

 

But a barrel roll in FC without the simple physics and easy piloting mode will always lawn dart me,  those two options let me roll, but at the half way point i still nose DOWN, but have the option to pull up and level out if i have at least 400 meters or feet of altitude.

[Guest deleted@83466]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:03 PM, pocketshaver said:

im a thrustmaster 16000 baby and i have a constant struggle to keep the plane from helicoptering.. kills the fun too. 

 

But a barrel roll in FC without the simple physics and easy piloting mode will always lawn dart me,  those two options let me roll, but at the half way point i still nose DOWN, but have the option to pull up and level out if i have at least 400 meters or feet of altitude.

This seems like a virtual piloting issue, not a game issue.

 

In this thread it seems a lot of people are really exaggerating how horrible and difficult it is to fly a plane that is a smidge tail heavy.  IMO, if your wrist is getting tired out from having to having to provide a teenie-weensie bit of forward pressure at maximum cruise speed, then it’s time to take a look at the height of your chair, and the position of the joystick…yeah, I’m serious.  

Edited January 5, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

This seems like a virtual piloting issue, not a game issue.

 

In this thread it seems a lot of people are really exaggerating how horrible and difficult it is to fly a plane that is a smidge tail heavy.  IMO, if your wrist is getting tired out from having to having to provide a teenie-weensie bit of forward pressure at maximum cruise speed, then it’s time to take a look at the height of your chair, and the position of the joystick…yeah, I’m serious.  

I would be surprised if wrist strength is actually a significant problem on this forum.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Maybe the’re left handed.

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

10 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

This seems like a virtual piloting issue, not a game issue.

 

In this thread it seems a lot of people are really exaggerating how horrible and difficult it is to fly a plane that is a smidge tail heavy.  IMO, if your wrist is getting tired out from having to having to provide a teenie-weensie bit of forward pressure at maximum cruise speed, then it’s time to take a look at the height of your chair, and the position of the joystick…yeah, I’m serious.  

 

 

This depends entirely on what hardware you have and the setup you're using. Different sticks will have different centring forces, and entry level sticks don't offer different strength springs to let you customise that. The difference between my old x52 and my gladiator nxt with weak springs was absolute night and day when it comes to planes like the Dr1. There's never any harm in including accessibility options like this, it more pleasant for people with worse hardware, or wrist issues like carpal tunnel or RSI to play the game. While simultaneously allowing more experienced players and veterans better customisation of their in-game control set up.   

 

I'm glad you don't have any problems, it's not something that impacts my enjoyment of the game anymore either. But the fact that you do not experience a problem does not mean the problem does not exist. That's a selfish and quite frankly extremely tiresome perspective. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

 

 

This depends entirely on what hardware you have and the setup you're using. Different sticks will have different centring forces, and entry level sticks don't offer different strength springs to let you customise that. The difference between my old x52 and my gladiator nxt with weak springs was absolute night and day when it comes to planes like the Dr1. There's never any harm in including accessibility options like this, it more pleasant for people with worse hardware, or wrist issues like carpal tunnel or RSI to play the game. While simultaneously allowing more experienced players and veterans better customisation of their in-game control set up.   

 

I'm glad you don't have any problems, it's not something that impacts my enjoyment of the game anymore either. But the fact that you do not experience a problem does not mean the problem does not exist. That's a selfish and quite frankly extremely tiresome perspective. 

I don’t care what joystick you’re using, if a slight bit of historically-correct forward pressure required to keep your trimless, but tail heavy plane where you want it turns out to be a physically painful deal-breaker, then I seriously think it is an ergonomic problem.   I didn’t like the big stiff-springed Warthog on top of the desk so I mounted it center and at a good height that wasn’t wrenching my wrist and my arm. This is just what flight simmers do to optimize their experience on their own end.  Some of the comments in this thread even go so far as to call the game “unplayable” (because you cant have fake control assistance via “input offsets”) and I think the “ issue” is being overblown.  And to clarify, I have no problem with individual curves.  I use those all the time in DCS.  I’m talking about curve -offsets- that the user can manipulate to eliminate particular characteristics of airplanes that the user simply doesn’t care for (a tendency to climb or roll).  I used those offsets in RoF, and in retrospect it felt like a bit of an easy mode…just let the stick go, jam the throttle back to maximum, and every airplane comes right back to level flight;  or do a helldiving high-speed bounce and not really have to have to fight the plane to keep the nose on target because the invisible hand of Otto is already giving you 50% of your stick input? I don’t miss that, it felt like an exploit.  TL;DR:  individualized curves, fine; ability to offset curves to provide hands-off input, no, don’t like it.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by SeaSerpent
Clarification, typos.

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

29 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don’t care what joystick you’re using, if a slight bit of historically-correct forward pressure is required to keep your close-to-neutral-stability fighter plane from climbing then I seriously think it is an ergonomic problem.  Some of the comments in this thread even go so far as to call the game “unplayable” (because you cant have fake control assistance via “input offsets”) and I think the “ issue” is being overblown.  And to clarify, I have no problem with individual curves.  I use those all the time in DCS.  I’m talking about curve -offsets- that the user can manipulate to eliminate particular characteristics of airplanes that the user simply doesn’t care for (a tendency to climb or roll).  I used those offsets in RoF, and in retrospect it felt like a bit of an easy mode…just let the stick go, jam the throttle back to maximum, and every airplane comes right back to level flight;  or do a helldiving high-speed bounce and not really have to have to fight the plane to keep the nose on target because the invisible hand of Otto is already giving you 50% of your stick input? I don’t miss that, it felt like an exploit.  Summary, individualized curves, fine; ability to offset curves to provide hands-off input, no.

 

 

 

 

It's not historically correct though. The only way it's a historically correct amount of stick pressure is if you're using a historically accurate controller, i.e. an extremely long force feedback stick between your legs with little to no self centring. For people with that kind of setup, it's perfect, they don't even need curves. But I'd wager the vast majority of people playing this game are instead using a desk mounted spring-centreing stick that's about 20cm long. In those cases, particularly with entry level sticks, keeping aircraft in level flight is considerably more taxing, particularly on the wrist, than someone with a more realistic setup. I'm a helicopter pilot, even trimmed the heli I fly requires constant forward stick pressure for level and forward flight. I never experienced anything like the kind of wrist strain flying a real helicopter than I did flying a simulated helicopter in DCS with an X-52, or a simulated fokker triplane. 

 

Before I upgraded to my gladiator, 10 minutes of flying the Dr1 level left me with wrist strain and cramps, it wasn't unfliable, but it wasn't remotely pleasant, and I spent most of my time using the autolevel feature when flying the Dr1 . Once I got a better stick, those issues disappeared completely. So yes, it is an issue of ergonomics, but it's an issue of ergonomics that could be alleviated and even fixed entirely with in-game tools. I don't like the fact that the only answer to people with this problem is for them to pour money into upgrading their setup, especially when their setup is perfectly fine for the majority of aircraft in the game, and when this game's predecessor had a feature that made this a non-issue.

 

 I understand your concerns about it feeling like an 'exploit'. But ultimately I don't see it as any different to any other allowances the game makes for the sake of comfort, things like headtracking curves, snap views, zoom, autolevel, an on-screen compass and G-metre. All are concessions made to make the game more playable, comfortable and accessible to us on our screens, and none of them have to be used by purists if they don't want to. 

 

 

 

And once more, the fact that you haven't experienced this problem doesn't mean other people are exaggerating.  This has never made the game unplayable for me, but I can empathise and see why it might be for others, particularly those with a worse setup than I had or those who suffer from wrist problems. Neither of which should be a barrier for entry into the game. 

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

if a slight bit of historically-correct forward pressure required to keep your trimless, but tail heavy plane where you want it turns out to be a physically painful deal-breaker, then I seriously think it is an ergonomic problem

The trim isn’t the real issue. Read the link above for the full explanation. I would like a measure of trim authenticity too but that can’t be made realistic without a FFB stick. So why worry?

[J2_Bidu]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 that can’t be made realistic without a FFB stick.

 

Sorry, I've already tried to read all the juicy explanation that has been provided, but I don't fully grasp it all.

 

In any case, even if the effect of the joystick position should depend on the plane angle of attack, etc.n etc., wouldn't it be possible for the game to simulate just that? I mean, that would surely imply that the controller would have a dynamically variable curve provided by the game, depending on wind, plane attitude, etc.

 

Does this make any sense? ?

[SharpeXB]

43 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

wouldn't it be possible for the game to simulate just that?

Sure. But the route they took in RoF was better. They explain the choices you could take in the game and why they chose the option they did. For example making the spring center the aerodynamic center compresses the rearward travel distance making the plane even more jumpy. Keeping the aerodynamic center realistically forward gives you more rearward travel and less jumpiness but requires you to push the stick forward more than the real aircraft would do and makes a response curve impossible to implement unless it’s asymmetric (which is what the custom curves do) There’s no ideal solution. 
Leaving the input to 1:1 and travel at 50/50 lets the player adjust it to their hardware. It’s rather impossible to consider everyone’s setup in the game. So just give players the tools to do it. Some players do have full length control sticks.
Rise of Flight was also made back when FFB was around too and that was a solution as well. But that’s no longer an option. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[J2_Bidu]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

[...] and makes a response curve impossible to implement unless it’s asymmetric (which is what the custom curves do)

[...] It’s rather impossible to consider everyone’s setup in the game. [...]

 

Well, but maybe they could do them dynamically symmetrical, and have a few variants for setups, based on travel distance or whatever...? I'm just wondering if given the benefit for all it wouldn't be a pretty good investment for the devs, making the cost of ownership of the game lower could keep people in, and bring more people in.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

Well, but maybe they could do them dynamically symmetrical, and have a few variants for setups, based on travel distance or whatever...? I'm just wondering if given the benefit for all it wouldn't be a pretty good investment for the devs, making the cost of ownership of the game lower could keep people in, and bring more people in.

No matter what they did someone would have an internet meltdown about pitch response or something. If “easy” was somehow baked into the game. Going the 1:1 route does allow players with authentic hardware to get the most out of that. Better to go “real” and let people dial it back than try to force that in the game. 

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:18 PM, SharpeXB said:

Going the 1:1 route does allow players with authentic hardware to get the most out of that.

That would be nice if the authentic hardware actually existed, which it doesn't. There's a reason why people today are still sticking to 20 year old Microsoft Sidewinder joysticks, since they were the last ones with good FFB joysticks.

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly said:

That would be nice if the authentic hardware actually existed, which it doesn't. There's a reason why people today are still sticking to 20 year old Microsoft Sidewinder joysticks, since they were the last ones with good FFB joysticks.

Well the only “realistic” stick in this regard would be a FFB one with an extension. I don’t imagine too many players have that. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Angry_Kitten]

the real problem is that too many people have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars to create customized stick setups,, and if that expensive setup doesnt experience the issues that someones thrustmaster does,,,,,  

 

then the person who spent the money kicks into the discussion making accusations about the lower cost equipment owners "wrist strength" harkening back to middle school bathroom insults

[Guest deleted@83466]

Whiner.

[SharpeXB]

On 1/9/2022 at 4:15 AM, [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly said:

That would be nice if the authentic hardware actually existed, which it doesn't. There's a reason why people today are still sticking to 20 year old Microsoft Sidewinder joysticks, since they were the last ones with good FFB joysticks.

The problem is that this current method (which was designed for RoF) was created back when FFB sticks were available and essentially intended for that. Today these really aren’t being made anymore. 

[DragonDaddy]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem is that this current method (which was designed for RoF) was created back when FFB sticks were available and essentially intended for that. Today these really aren’t being made anymore. 

Even though older FFB sticks are no longer being produced, they are still available. I own two MSFFB sticks and fly them exclusively, even though I own VKB and two other sticks. 

[SharpeXB]

Thank you!

 

Also, we are adding the ability to virtually adjust the pitch like we had in ROF, which for WWI crates makes them much more comfortable to fly and increases the fun factor.