Starting Round of AI Aircraft Command Routine Improvements: Please let us know what you think needs fixing

[Buzzsaw]

Hello All

 

We improved the AI Routines for both TF 4.5 and TF 5.0, we are now starting work on improving AI for TF 6.0.

 

This round of improvements to the AI Routines will focus on allowing the players to command their wingmen and flights better... so the AI obeys the player orders to attack/return to base/disengage/etc./etc.

 

We are inviting the community to submit their wishes for fixes/changes to the current AI command/control system.

 

We do not see changing completely the the current menu system... players will still select commands with keyboard entry strokes... sometimes multiple entries will be required for particular commands.

 

What we are concerned about is fixing/improving the current lack of response by the AI to commands... and/or adding additional commands.

 

If you can be systematic in describing the areas which you think are the most important and where the game is currently lacking, we would appreciate your input.

 

Thanks again for your support!  ☺️✌️

[Dagwoodyt]

As a starting point it would be helpful to have a list of the commands that are currently functional.

[Missionbug]

The AI flight trying to land with you was always my pet peeve, I thought it had been sorted but have noticed it recently still following when told to return to base.

 

Not part of your plan if I understand what you are intending but the whole menu for commands contains far too many commands to find and activate in any sim, especially during combat, I appreciate many of you guys online will use comms but offline the AI tends to do what it wants most of the time anyway so rejoin, return to base and attack specific things will do for me fully working.

 

The AI always seems to fly the route whatever I do, that is a good thing, it takes me some time to figure out where I am supposed to be following takeoff, if I manage it in the Zebedee Spitfire that is, so I just find them and try and catch up.

 

I fly very rarely these days due to health issues, still trying to love this sim but failing sadly, do not get too involved in the full real thing so maybe that has some affect on how the AI behave and why things go the way they do, or maybe the AI feels I need a helping hand, follow us boss, we'll show you what to do. 

 

Note:  You must be old to remember the character Zebedee, he bounced a lot.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete

Edited October 10, 2021 by Missionbug

[Peachy9]

 

In terms of improvements - Attack bombers/fighters/break/cover me - all fully functioning - maybe they are but not consistently as far as i can see

 

Same for Ground control and vectoring - ideally with an intelligible answer

 

 

My couple of suggestions for changes:

 

Under Attack Bombers - Somehow if we can order AI not to attack the rear of enemy bomber formations and be slaughtered but to use quarter or head on attacks - I know this may be too complex given positioning of aircraft/speed etc - so many times i lead my virtual flight through a perfectly set up head on attack and they follow me, dont open fire and then turn to attack the rear of the formation.

 

For Ground targets - If there was a "drop bombs when i do" command for formation bombing.

 

Missionbug - have you tried Voiceattack - program the most frequently used comms commands with your voice - it works well with Il21946 and CLOD

 

 

[Pinguim]

Great news.

 

I think it's very important to have a way to get the AI back in formation.

 

also improve the landing command. last I checked, only way to get AI to land was through 'abort mission' command, not actually the landing command.

[Avimimus]

1) My biggest request would be to have an option for realistic situational awareness, where sometimes an AI aircraft with a lower skill level will lose track of the player aircraft's location (similar to what happens to players) for a few seconds after making a pass before re-acquiring (or disengaging). This would be more realistic.

 

2) AI should try to automatically regroup with allied aircraft, and if they can't regroup they should have a probability of disengaging and returning to base. Similarly, it would make sense for experienced pilots and aces to sometimes evaluate whether they are outnumbered or at an energy/altitude disadvantage and try to disengage.

 

3) The AI often wastes energy in a 360 degree aileron role - and this is probably a behaviour that should be reduced - especially for large multi-engined aircraft (we've all scene a Sutherland try to pull off a barrel roll)!

 

4) I'd really like to have AI calling out the locations of targets (especially ground targets) and their types. I think this could be expanded.

 

P.S. I also think that front gunners should sometimes open up on ground targets (particularly anti-aircraft guns) as this was done in North Africa. But this is fairly low priority.

[Missionbug]

6 hours ago, Peachy9 said:

Missionbug - have you tried Voiceattack - program the most frequently used comms commands with your voice - it works well with Il21946 and CLOD

 

 

Hello Peachy9, sorry to say I have not.  I always play offline, would this work for me or is it a multiplayer tool?

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[Dagwoodyt]

14 minutes ago, Missionbug said:

 

Hello Peachy9, sorry to say I have not.  I always play offline, would this work for me or is it a multiplayer tool?

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Works great for offline. You can use voice commands for the radio comms for instance and have one voice command enter the relevant menu and submenu keystrokes for you.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Dagwoodyt

[Enceladus828]

I've noticed for some time and even mentioned it in a thread that I started for future fixes for the game, the AI shooting, even with the highest skill level can sometimes be inaccurate. For example, the AI plane will shoot at a bomber and then the plane will ascend or descend a bit but enough so that 100% of the shots are passing completely above or below the bomber. The AI doesn't stop firing nor does it correct by adjusting the pitch, it just keeps firing with all of the shots completely missing the bomber.

 

I understand that the AI shooting is not to be 100% accurate, I mean Jason even stated that they could make the AI like 'Superman' but then everyone would get shot down.

 

In this video this observation happens at 8:40 and 9:05: IL-2 Cliffs of Dover Blitz || Desert Wings Tobruk || Bombing Riad on Derna Port! - YouTube

 

Thank you 

 

[Peachy9]

12 hours ago, Missionbug said:

 

Hello Peachy9, sorry to say I have not.  I always play offline, would this work for me or is it a multiplayer tool?

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

 

As Dagwoody says - its great offline which i play predominantly. I will use for games where there are too many menus - like ARMA 3 and I use it in CLOD and in 1946 at least for the core commands that i use most often.

 

Its (or was) free on steam.

 

P

[Missionbug]

Okay Peachy9, thank you very much for the information, really appreciated.

 

I am very much a dinosaur as far as add on stuff for flight sims, just a twist grip stick, mouse and keyboard, for the time I spend in game now it

is adequate but I will look it up, there are far too many menu items to flick through when flying, bit like looking at your mobile phone while walking,

could be dangerous, I get lost or shot up.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[Mysticpuma]

Just having these working again would be brilliant.

 

Some way of fixing the constantly twitching gunners.

 

 

[56RAF_Stickz]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:25 AM, Missionbug said:

Note:  You must be old to remember the character Zebedee, he bounced a lot

Even worse if you can remember watching him whilst being in the RAF (and I do mean the first time it was on)

[Missionbug]

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

Even worse if you can remember watching him whilst being in the RAF (and I do mean the first time it was on)

 

Yeah, where did all the good T.V. go I wonder?  Fifty Eight now and it all seems so long ago, a different world then.

 

I hope at least your aircraft did not bounce like the Spitfire and 520 do for me in this sim, I break more than I fly, to add insult to injury I flew a mission a few days ago, got airborne okay, survived the fur ball and then coming in for what seemed the perfect landing all went bang!  Must have caught something but this was just as I touched down, WTF.

 

I think I need to take up chess again and give up on all this electronic madness.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[56RAF_Stickz]

13 hours ago, Missionbug said:

Yeah, where did all the good T.V. go I wonder?  Fifty Eight now and it all seems so long ago, a different world then.

ha ha four feather falls for the win( need to be well into 60s to have seen that "live"). TV when you only had one channel, not that my parents could afford a telly until '63 ish. Then again was always happier outside than in watching a box. And rather like post 80s music you get 60 channels of 99% garbage.

Chess way beyond my level although I did teach my son to be much better than me (not that he had a lot to beat). I find riding bike distracting enough from electrickery devices and nowadays puts you to sleep to recover.

 

13 hours ago, Missionbug said:

I hope at least your aircraft did not bounce like the Spitfire and 520

 

Assume you mean during landing? I can usually get a spit down without bounce - although not had any time to fly for months it seems. Maybe spit v is harder but you have to keep speed right down to 80mph whereas in il2 FB you need higher landing speed for me. Some runways are also a bit marginal for it as well - gravesend I think is very problematic take off or landing, more akin to a roller coaster surface than runway. I regard landing several planes in CloD more akin to floating them in. Actually have never flown the D520 one of thoose things just never got round to (yet).

[Missionbug]

Very rare I watch telly now, mainly have the music on, footie or the odd film is about all I turn the box on for now, all those free channels as well as the usual but still

nothing worth watching, Game of Thrones I started and then just bought the box set, I never keep up with those weekly things, I tinker with 3d  modelling for Il-2 46 modded instead or go walking.   I think age is taking its toll, just seems the past was better but maybe we just pick and choose the better parts and forget the rest.

 

The spit and 520 it is actually getting airborne I find problematic, the bounce on ground roll seems to be out of all proportion to me for such things, hence Zebedee, landing a spit is usually straight forward, the incident I had was like I hit something, but I could not see it, the sun was in my face but even so, maybe a misplaced object in the single mission, the 520 I do struggle landing seems difficult to judge the best approach.

 

Maybe I lack enough stick time in Blitz/Tobruk, due to ill health I fly little so have not practiced a lot, then again I prefer to use the Great Battles series or IL_1946 modded as my go to for the rare forays skyward, anyway, as always I am straying from the question posed by Buzzsaw.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Missionbug

[Mysticpuma]

BoB:WoVII was Ai coded by Buddeye, probably the greatest Ai coder (at least at the time) for aircraft sims. One feature I would love to see is Ai not being perfect, not flying the aircraft at maximum efficiency.

This video I created (many years ago) shows footage from BoB: WoVII but the short piece I wish to point out is in the guncam near the end at the  9minute 9second mark.

So I am in a low turning fighting and have damaged the Ai 109, he is still trying to twist and turn then suddenly he stalls the aircraft which completely amazed me. The fact that the Ai tried to out perform the capabilities of it's damaged aircraft and spun into the ground was something I had never seen and to this day have never seen again.

 

 

It's a bit like the original GRID:Racedriver, I remember coming around a corner and finding a pile up of cars I had to dodge and weave through like Tom Cruise in "Days of Thunder", the Ai had crashed as it had tried to outperform the cars capabilities.

 

So I would love to see Ai that isn't perfect and makes mistakes (a bit like as mentioned above, they know where you are even when you come in blind).

 

T

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Mysticpuma

[Dagwoodyt]

Those clips have great cinematic effect as the AI isn't displaying an immersion-killing herky-jerk dance in front of the gun camera.

Damaged AI in GB certainly stall and spin in.

WRT to the topic at hand though it would be much appreciated if new players could know what radio commands are functional in the present state of the game. That way they don't spend time with activities that are unavailing. It has been mentioned before that voice responses are often nearly inaudible. If  such an issue cannot be addressed before TF 6.0 emerges, ouch!

Something I would like to see is a statement from the developers as to what advancements were made to the comms system over the most recent iterations of the game and at some point a vision statement as to what improvements they view as feasible.

There is a lot on the table at present. There may be other topics of concern when the "relaunch" drops. For instance I am still not clear on which aircraft will get the 4k cockpit and external model upgrades.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Dagwoodyt

[56RAF_Stickz]

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

It has been mentioned before that voice responses are often nearly inaudible.

thats odd, responses on my system are easily heard - however its terrible English accent and I often cannot understand 50% they say. Appears they do not even use the correct phonetic alphabet, they could correct that for me.

[Dagwoodyt]

9 hours ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

thats odd, responses on my system are easily heard - however its terrible English accent and I often cannot understand 50% they say. Appears they do not even use the correct phonetic alphabet, they could correct that for me.

Well the way I remember the post I saw the concern was that there doesn't seem to be a way to set voice volume separately from engine sounds. So if the engine sound is annoying and you turn it down to save your hearing, voice volume also decreases. The upside of course is that the commander's complaints about someone not being able to keep up also diminish in volume. My takeaway though is that there must be a substantial archive of posts that have previously dealt with radio commands and similar AI related matter. If there has not been time enough to digest the existing archive and give some insight to us as to what is possible for TF 6.0 I am not sure adding suggestions that might be duplicative is the way to go.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Dagwoodyt

[Props]

Thank you for asking for input on this subject! My AI wishlist for BOX from the singleplayer Quick Mission / Career perspective:

Kind of difficult to access commands in the middle of a dogfight. Don't know if the multiple keyboard inputs can readily be simplified. Voice Attack maybe?

Need for AI to be SA aware of proximity to player aircraft, eliminate shoulder shooting wingmen who should take up covering position or attacking other enemy AC rather than interfering in players attack. Cover me easier? Wingmen should target new/different enemy aircraft. No shooting when player AC is in front of friendly AI.

AI targeting of specific enemy fighter and/or bomber flights for sections in your flight, I guess would be a keyboard or voice attack command. I see a little of this in Career where on occasion part of my flight goes after the escort and a couple will target the bombers but it is not a sure thing and certainly not "coordinated" though I figure that level of coordination would be a little difficult to manage in the code. They should attack bombers from the front quarters and high sides at least occasionally.

 
Player has no command options when flying as a wingman in formations of 4 or more planes. Maybe not the lead or flight commander, but options maybe should exist to set target(s) for friendly AI better just before engaging enemy and to limit number of Friendly AIs attacking each bandit (sometimes up to 4 AIs will go after a single when multiple bandits are available and seemingly ignored).

 
I'd like to see options for finger four formations, combat spread, loose deuce and a more reliable "Cover Me" command. Loose deuce or combat spread would not have to necessarily be a command key if the AI wingman automatically assumed that position upon entry of an enemy aircraft into a specific range or combat area and actually covers you decently and only attacks when you ask for it.

I have had a lone wingman join on me after a big fight for the flight home, but they usually do so at high altitude and I'd rather have them join in a combat spread. They will come down and echelon using the current command tree, but I hate having them below me and often close to my blind spot and they usually get a little too close for comfort should a sudden combat situation develop and some hard maneuvering is required.

I've also experienced situations where the AI friendly sits at a high altitude "covering" position while I'm duking it out with multiple adversaries and the wingman does not engage, he just sits there circling about way up there where it safe. If I command him to target the fighters he invariably goes after my current target and endangers both of us instead of targeting one of the other enemy AC.

Specific Attack commands for nearest Vehicle (train), nearest convoy, nearest artillery or AAA, nearest ship, etc to more effectively use an AI wingman in a greater variety of scenarios.

Like Avimimus I too would like to hear my flight leads and wingman callout bogie/bandit sightings direction and altitudes. I always have to watch them for visual clues when they just plain take off in some direction and I hope I spot whatever they're going after before it's too late to setup an attack (or worse die horribly in my cockpit). Free hunts invariably lead to the death of my fight lead as he takes off after who knows what with out me and he's probably grossly outnumbered, while I try to spot where the hell he's gone off too.

 

Just some thoughts on the matter.

[Mysticpuma]

An end to vehicles not being able to cross bridges(as I understand it the Channel map is being redone so maybe this fixes the issue) and also the stop-start, bouncing off vehicles and swerving all over the road from the Ai. 

 

 

[Props]

Is this a Tobruk issue? I have seen convoys cross bridges on all the big maps, like Kuban, Stalingrad, Moscow and Rheinland for sure, and have frequently waited to time my strafing attacks while they are on the bridge and abutments as they are in the open, a little more visible for targeting, and I don't have to avoid the trees (admittedly I come in a too shallow of angle sometimes and have been making adjustments to my approach). 

[Sokol1]

13 hours ago, Props said:

Is this a Tobruk issue? I have seen convoys cross bridges on all the big maps, like Kuban, Stalingrad, Moscow and Rheinland 

 

It's a problem o IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (and their expansion Tobruk) engine.

 

IL-2 Sturmovik: Great Battles (Kuban, Salingrad, etc) series use an different engine.

[Mysticpuma]

18 hours ago, Props said:

Is this a Tobruk issue? I have seen convoys cross bridges on all the big maps, like Kuban, Stalingrad, Moscow and Rheinland for sure, and have frequently waited to time my strafing attacks while they are on the bridge and abutments as they are in the open, a little more visible for targeting, and I don't have to avoid the trees (admittedly I come in a too shallow of angle sometimes and have been making adjustments to my approach). 

As Sokol1 says, it's a CloD issue (forever) not a BoX issue ?

[Dirtbag_Jim]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:37 PM, Props said:

My AI wishlist for BOX from the singleplayer Quick Mission / Career perspective:

 

 

Just thought I'd give ya heads up that this thread is for CloD/Tobruk by the TFS team, not BOX

[Props]

Oops my bad! I somehow missed the CLoD/Tobruk connection and apologize for wasting everyone's time here. Ugh!

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Props said:

Oops my bad! I somehow missed the CLoD/Tobruk connection and apologize for wasting everyone's time here. Ugh!

No damage done. The thread title topic is as old as the forum so we are well covered in any event.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Dagwoodyt

[Bf109Ace]

Hi Buzzsaw,

As an avid Single Player who fly's predominantly in FMB, my wish list.....

 

Receipt

a] The ability to command your wingman from this point

 

Air Targets

a] Command flight to attack target by viewpoint/ or type

 

 Navigation

a] Command flight to rejoin formation

b] Command flight to next or previous waypoint

c] Command flight to return to base

Hopefully c] will also stop your wingman crashing into the ground whilst you are landing

 

Ground Control

a] Request vector to home base

b] Request landing clearance

c} Request for take off

The audio replies need some work. Radio comms was really not that bad in 1940. As an English speaker with a smattering of German, the replies when flying the 109 are unintelligible. Even the English replies are not good.

.

Receipt

a] Ability to command wingman/ flight to help

 

Slightly off topic but some other points

1] The colours of the commands would go a long way to simplifying the use. One colour for those that work and another colour for those that don't.

Alternately delete/ hide the commands that do not work from the menu's. 

2] It would be great if you could shorten the key paths for some of the more common commands.

3] When you are finished fixing/improving, an explanation to all as to how to use the key logic of the commands. At the moment I get lost with the duplicate commands and those that work/ don't work/ maybe work

 

 

[Buzzsaw]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:43 AM, Mysticpuma said:

An end to vehicles not being able to cross bridges(as I understand it the Channel map is being redone so maybe this fixes the issue) and also the stop-start, bouncing off vehicles and swerving all over the road from the Ai. 

 

 

Please keep the discussion to the issue at hand... i.e. Player commands to the aircraft AI.

 

----

 

The bridges on the Channel map will be fixed so vehicles are able to cross in the next module... or in a patch.

 

The issue with AI vehicles and traffic congestion should hopefully be addressed at the same time.

[Mysticpuma]

8 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

Please keep the discussion to the issue at hand... i.e. Player commands to the aircraft AI.

 

----

 

The bridges on the Channel map will be fixed so vehicles are able to cross in the next module... or in a patch.

 

The issue with AI vehicles and traffic congestion should hopefully be addressed at the same time.

That is great news! Looking forward to this long time legacy issue finally being irradiated! I did think it was Ai related but no problem, thanks for clarification. 

[Buzzsaw]

3 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

That is great news! Looking forward to this long time legacy issue finally being irradiated! I did think it was Ai related but no problem, thanks for clarification. 

It had nothing to do with AI or AI commands.

[Guest deleted@7076]

-Deleted-

Edited September 12, 2022 by Varrattu

[Buzzsaw]

4 minutes ago, Varrattu said:

So

       'Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements:' ?

is somewhat Newspeak and means

      'Starting next Round with AI commands:' ?

 

~V~

Changed title for those who don't like reading posts.

[Peachy9]

One more thing I thought of re AI

110 Rear gunners being able to return fire accurately in high G manoeuvres and at extreme angles under their tail - same as Stukas - doesn't apply to other bombers.

Not strictly a command I know but it would improve lifespan of the friendly AI if they insist on tail attacks

Edited October 24, 2021 by Peachy9

[Buzzsaw]

17 minutes ago, Peachy9 said:

One more thing I thought of re AI

110 Rear gunners being able to return fire accurately in high G manoeuvres and at extreme angles under their tail - same as Stukas - doesn't apply to other bombers.

Not strictly a command I know but it would improve lifespan of the friendly AI if they insist on tail attacks

Are you saying 110's and Stukas have too much capability or not?

 

110's and Stuka's didn't have a field of fire underneath the aircraft... and the FoF was quite limited above the horizon.

 

And gunners who were being thrown around and experiencing high-G effects were not capable of firing accurately or effectively.

[Peachy9]

Sorry - I think currently they have too much capability - and i dont mean when sitting on their tail like a sitting Duck - I mean in a fast slashing attack or beam attack and also in a boom and zoom attack they seem to get the pilot or radiator 50% of the time, and when in high speed, high G turns. Not an issue with bigger bombers, where you will get hit but much less frequently