Tempest wing failure

[machtu]

I really enjoy flying the Tempest but getting tired of the undamaged wings breaking off when going into a moderate to hard roll.  It takes the fun out of flying it and makes me wonder if this problem was apparent in true life Tempests.  

 

Is there a way to tone that wing failure rate down?

[354thFG_Panda_]

The tempest will rip a wing when you go moderately fast and do an instant pull with roll. Be more cautious pulling while rolling. However if you only roll there should be no problems.

Edited September 29, 2021 by LR.TheRedPanda

[Diggun]

I'd love to know the sources for the Tempest & Typhoon losing wings in this manner. I've never read anything that reports this phenomenon. I could understand the Typhoon losing the tail in these circumstances, but I've never had that happen in game...

 

*Disclaimer - I freakin love the Typhoon (and Tempest to a lesser extent)

[CountZero]

7 hours ago, machtu said:

I really enjoy flying the Tempest but getting tired of the undamaged wings breaking off when going into a moderate to hard roll.  It takes the fun out of flying it and makes me wonder if this problem was apparent in true life Tempests.  

 

Is there a way to tone that wing failure rate down?

Regarding real life Tempest i didnt fined any mention of it losing wing if pilot try to pull up or turn, nor there is big amount of pilots kiled by some random crashes.

 

In game now when they added G to show past 10G you can see that wing brakes when player go abow 12G limit of airplane, and in game at around 700kmh speed you can realy easy go abow 12G in seconds by just moving stick by a little, it looks wrong and if it behaved like that in real life airplane that was used as fast intercept, diving and destroying V-1s, you would have pilots dying so mutch that airplane would be baned from using in ww2.

To me in game tempest have something realy wrong with how mutch force player is able to pull at athat speeds. I expected they gona take a look at this anomaly with Tempest when they make Typhoon but they didnt, or ateast explain why you have this in game but in real life didnt happend. If force on stick is so minimal that normal pilot can rip his wings by just small pull of stick at around 700kmh, there would be warning about it in manuals or in airplanes cockpit, like there is for other airplanes that expiriance some problems.

 

Early Typhoon was losing tail at high speeds, they partialy fix that for later models but it still happend, just not as offten as when it start at 41, but in game i would expect to se that happend on Typhoon more offten then easy wings braking on Tempest. I dont see mentions about Tempest losing wings anywhere i looked, but i remenber mentions about 109Fs losing wings easy at first, or early Yak-9s, no such things in game. If history was writen by game tempest would be known as widowmaker.

Edited September 29, 2021 by CountZero

[40plus]

 I've never lost a wing in the Tempest and I fly like a thug. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

The only time I have pulled the wings off the Tempest is doing a high G pullout with bombs on the wings.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I have flown the Tempest so many times in so many situations and I can't remember even once breaking the wings off. What are the circumstances?

[Diggun]

Seems to happen most often with a push-pull of the stick at high speeds. (over 360mph) in both Typhoon & Tempest.

[TheDome]

This happens to me more than I care to mention in the Tempest. And after the recent changes now happens in the Typhoon also but it didn't occur when the Typhoon first came out. It will do it on both with the aircraft clean but its more likely to happen with bombs on

Edited September 29, 2021 by TheDome

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ummm... Perhaps fly it like a real airplane and not a video game?

 

Just sayin'.

[Diggun]

57 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Just sayin'.

What a helpful, relevant, and useful comment! 

[TheDome]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Ummm... Perhaps fly it like a real airplane and not a video game?

 

Just sayin'.

Yeah super helpful I will take your great suggestion on board.. Legend

 

Just to clear things up this doesn't happen to me on any other aircraft

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

4 hours ago, 40plus said:

 I've never lost a wing in the Tempest and I fly like a thug. 

I got this to happen with heavy roll input and a bit of pitch during a high speed dive bombing attack, so while I don't think it's terribly problematic I think you need to be more thuggish in your flying!

[BlitzPig_EL]

4 hours ago, Diggun said:

What a helpful, relevant, and useful comment! 

I try.

 

And you know what I mean.  There are so many unrealistic moves done in flight simulation, stuff that would break the airframe, and or the pilot.  The rapid "push pull" thing with the stick, for one.

[Diggun]

2 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The rapid "push pull" thing with the stick, for one.

Who said anything about rapid? you push down to get guns on the target, you pull up once you've hit it, the wing comes off. I've never read of that happening in a typhoon or a tempest. Have you?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, I must say that is not my experience in game.  As I said the only time I have lost wings on the Tempest was during high speed, rapid pullouts with bombs on the wings, but I tend to be gentle on the controls, and conservative with aircraft management in general. (Hence my comment about flying it like a video game, and not real life, I fly to bring the machine back home).

 

Is there any factory data on the Tempest wing structural limitations?  I'm not saying this isn't an issue, and I agree that what is otherwise a robust feeling machine should not have it's wings come off at inopportune times. 

[Lusekofte]

I am afraid I never lost a wing on any of these. Except if I do not hit a ?

I fly everything as it was a bomber. So I guess I do not count. 

Our Blitzpig here got a point. I got what he ment. Because people treat this game as a game in all aspects. Not all but the ones who do, shows, and one is led to believe it is all others. 

We will have to live with this on the Tempest for a while. But as I understand it Typhoon has just got this adjustment. It might be tweaked again. I would not say our version should have a weak tail either. Our version is strengthen

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

11 hours ago, CountZero said:

Regarding real life Tempest i didnt fined any mention of it losing wing if pilot try to pull up or turn, nor there is big amount of pilots kiled by some random crashes.

 

In game now when they added G to show past 10G you can see that wing brakes when player go abow 12G limit of airplane, and in game at around 700kmh speed you can realy easy go abow 12G in seconds by just moving stick by a little, it looks wrong and if it behaved like that in real life airplane that was used as fast intercept, diving and destroying V-1s, you would have pilots dying so mutch that airplane would be baned from using in ww2.

To me in game tempest have something realy wrong with how mutch force player is able to pull at athat speeds. I expected they gona take a look at this anomaly with Tempest when they make Typhoon but they didnt, or ateast explain why you have this in game but in real life didnt happend. If force on stick is so minimal that normal pilot can rip his wings by just small pull of stick at around 700kmh, there would be warning about it in manuals or in airplanes cockpit, like there is for other airplanes that expiriance some problems.

It wasn't uncommon to have planes risk structural failure because of their lighter control forces.

For example NACA evaluated the P-47 and found that with rear center of gravity configuration (for example rear tank filled) the plane could have as low as 3lb (1.36 Kg) per G of stick force needed, which was deemed dangerously low in the report. To put that in context you could pull 12G with just around 16 kilograms of force on the stick.

Now I don't know what were the real stick forces on the Tempest, just that making the statement of saying this wouldn't be plausible isn't really correct, as there were examples of it in real life.

Edited September 29, 2021 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[MajorMagee]

The thing we all miss flying in the safety of our simulators is the g force feedback you get in a real aircraft. Pilots can lose control, make snap maneuvers that exceed the limits of the structure, or take battle damage that compromises the structure without them knowing it, but generally they were trained to know and "feel" when they were approaching the edge of what was possible with their particular aircraft. Yes, PILOC did/does still happen, but the level of force that it takes to break most fighters is designed to be safely above that with some margin to spare. Wearing a modern g suit, and being well conditioned to resist it one can briefly get to 9 gs. If you've ever felt even 6 gs you know that 10 or 12 gs does not happen on purpose no matter how distracted or desparate you might get in combat.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Agree.  It's far too easy for us sim "pilots" to just yank our toy joysticks to their max deflection, no matter the "airspeed" that our virtual mount is hurtling through the pixel air at.  How I wish there was a quality, modern, force feedback system available, with high fidelity software imbedded in the game, to give us some chance at actually feeling what the control surfaces are doing.  But then we would probably need another computer just to run it.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Agree.  It's far too easy for us sim "pilots" to just yank our toy joysticks to their max deflection, no matter the "airspeed" that our virtual mount is hurtling through the pixel air at.  How I wish there was a quality, modern, force feedback system available, with high fidelity software imbedded in the game, to give us some chance at actually feeling what the control surfaces are doing.  But then we would probably need another computer just to run it.

Brunner got this. But it need Brunner software to run. And it is delivered compitable only to a few civilian sims 

But I know some got it working in DCS

Edited September 30, 2021 by LuseKofte

[ShamrockOneFive]

I know this isn't an option for everyone but this is one of the things that the WarBRD and Gunfighter stick bases do well with an cam/spring system that really gives you a sense of the control surface deflection through resistance.

 

The folks ripping wings off... is your stick lightly sprung? Can you adjust the springs on your setup?

[Pict]

I just tested this out of interest and found that while I could easily replicalte wing break (I even managed to knock the horizontal stabilzers off as well  ), the amount of deflection I was pulling on the stick at the high speed I was at felt so un-natural to me that I can say with certainty that I would not manage to do it outside of that test.

 

=============

 

I set my responce curve up at 100 sensitivity, 52 center dead zone and zero for the bottom line what ever it is, for all three axis. This gives me more "feel" in an otherwise dead stick and the center dead zone just avoids and unwanted input from the spiky old pots.

 

So setting max sensitivty in your joy stick curves won't stop this wing break from happening, just less of pull at very high speed will prevent it.

 

=============

 

As a side note to this I recall Eric Brown the WW2 test pilot being given some time to play around with IL2 FB and he spent almost all of that time setting up the joystick reponse curve. The numbers for his curve were published with the article and naurally many people gave them a go.

 

The feedback from people was interesting as many just rubbished Browns input curve for being too slow. Personally I was taken a back at just how much input he expected to have, it was a lot. This may have some bearing on why I opt for 100 percent sensitivity, I don't know but I like it and it works for me.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Pict
Tons of errors

[sevenless]

22 hours ago, 40plus said:

 I've never lost a wing in the Tempest and I fly like a thug. 

 

Yep same here. I only get blacked out, but I have adapted since release of this plane. Was worse when it came out.

[Pict]

6 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The folks ripping wings off... is your stick lightly sprung? Can you adjust the springs on your setup?

 

The forearm spring needs a tweak before anything else I'd say  

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I know this isn't an option for everyone but this is one of the things that the WarBRD and Gunfighter stick bases do well with an cam/spring system that really gives you a sense of the control surface deflection through resistance.

 

The folks ripping wings off... is your stick lightly sprung? Can you adjust the springs on your setup?

I think you are right. My stick got adjustable hydronic dampers and bungeecord on self centering device. And a good travel. I guess ripping wings off will take a noticeable physical movement 

[Pict]

4 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I guess ripping wings off will take a noticeable physical movement

 

This is it, you need to be travelling at a very high speed then use full deflection ot the stick to do the damage, the longer the stick the more you're going to notice how much deflection that is.

 

Btw; great looking rig you have there, looks to ideal for bombers / twins 

[Cpt_Siddy]

very easy to pull over g an break wing, yet i see no references in any literature OR manuals ....

[Art-J]

For example, If I recall correctly Spitfire had a force gradient of about 5 pounds per G in pitch axis, so every average-strong pilot was capable of pulling enough with two hands to get to structural-failing 12G.

 

At the same time, however, every pilot would avoid getting there simply by physically struggling with G-buildup and stick force buildup. No special manual notes needed, artificial limiters or G-meter for that matter, just common sense.

 

If developers have acces to trim and force curves from original tech documentation of these low longitudinal stability margin airplanes, and replicate them to the letter in the flight models then that's that. One will just have to acccept the fact that wings will be snapped sometimes because of physical impossibility of replicating forces in simulators and adjust his/her sim-piloting habits accordingly.

 

The only alternatives are imposing some arbitrary virtual-pilot-strength limitations, or adding a tech-chat-style G-meter being shown on the screen all the time. Both, however mean dfferent type of deviation from "realism", so they're not good solutions either. No perfect solution of this problem exists anyway.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Art-J

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

very easy to pull over g an break wing, yet i see no references in any literature OR manuals ....

I think Shamrock is into something.

If you use a table mounted stick. Short. I guess it will be easy ripping the wings off.

So a electric device simulating ww2 fighters probably need a good adjustment in axis .  I guess we might have to order a better adjustment for this or someone will always have a problem

[Cpt_Siddy]

2 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I think Shamrock is into something.

If you use a table mounted stick. Short. I guess it will be easy ripping the wings off.

So a electric device simulating ww2 fighters probably need a good adjustment in axis .  I guess we might have to order a better adjustment for this or someone will always have a problem

then why this is not an issue in all the other fighters or Pe-2?

I can do a Kobra maneuver in Pe-2 from dive speed and then do 360 noscope barrel-roll and still be just fine. 

[Pict]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

very easy to pull over g an break wing, yet i see no references in any literature OR manuals ....

 

You never see anything in the manual about crashing into a petrol bowser while taxiing, but it was easy to do too  

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, Pict said:

 

You never see anything in the manual about crashing into a petrol bowser while taxiing, but it was easy to do too  

Trust me, if yanking of stick caused reliable taxing accidents with Tempest, you would hear of it somewhere... 

[Pict]

6 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Trust me, if yanking of stick caused reliable taxing accidents with Tempest, you would hear of it somewhere... 

 

Trust me, I'm not suggesting it happened  

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I know this isn't an option for everyone but this is one of the things that the WarBRD and Gunfighter stick bases do well with an cam/spring system that really gives you a sense of the control surface deflection through resistance.

 

This right here has been the biggest reason for the improvement in my flying ability, along with adding a stick extension to my Gunfighter. If one can afford it, it's well worth the investment. 

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

very easy to pull over g an break wing, yet i see no references in any literature OR manuals ....

 

Plenty of wartime manuals discuss it. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by LukeFF

[Noisemaker]

There could theoretically be a software solution to this issue whereby a variable response curve is applied to the input device based on speed and g-load.  Sort of an inverse to the S curve many of us use for the desktop sticks to keep the plane from jerking around from small movements of the stick.  A sort of compressor or limiter whose threshold is set by the speed and AOA.

[357th_KW]

Alternatively, just cutting CLmax to a more reasonable value would probably solve the problem.  ?‍♂️

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

then why this is not an issue in all the other fighters or Pe-2?

I can do a Kobra maneuver in Pe-2 from dive speed and then do 360 noscope barrel-roll and still be just fine. 

Well PE 2 is designed as a dive bomber. So if it is structural strong it is correct.

Still I do believe this is a issue divided between hardware and software. Only strengthen the planes will give wrongs the other way. Or not. I really do not know. 

I can only guess. 

I have great understanding for frustration you have . But I do not have it. Leaving me to guess or come with theory 

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

There could theoretically be a software solution to this issue whereby a variable response curve is applied to the input device based on speed and g-load.  Sort of an inverse to the S curve many of us use for the desktop sticks to keep the plane from jerking around from small movements of the stick.  A sort of compressor or limiter whose threshold is set by the speed and AOA.

This is what I believe

[iFoxRomeo]

 

 

 

Some visual clues for the lack of G-Force sensation could probably help.

Sitting in a real Tempest without G-Suit, you would probably not pull enough G to break the wings. But if trimmed it was obviously possible. 

 

[TheDome]

20 minutes ago, iFoxRomeo said:

 

 

 

Some visual clues for the lack of G-Force sensation could probably help.

Sitting in a real Tempest without G-Suit, you would probably not pull enough G to break the wings. But if trimmed it was obviously possible. 

 

Thanks for the info. Having done this a good few times now i can recreate the issue at 340-360mph below 10,000. 

Appreciate all the info in this thread. Why are these the only aircraft that i can do this with? Running tests on any other aircraft and i can not recreate it at all. So we are saying that during this time period the only aircraft capable of pulling these 12G was the tempest and the typhoon at the speed of 360mph?

 

Please dont think im saying this is broke please fix it. i just find it strange i can do this with the tiffy/tempest

 

I am using a desk mounted stick and it isnt heavily sprung. but its certainly not setup 1-1 input, i do have a curve to help the smaller inputs

Edited October 1, 2021 by TheDome