Air battles over Dieppe Landings 1942

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Here is a question:

 

How different is the operation Husky planeset from Dieppe?

 

Very different:

 

Guest, Russell. Christopher Shores. A History of the Mediterranean Air War, 1940-1945. Volume 4: Sicily and Italy to the fall of Rome 14 May, 1943 – 5 June, 1944 (S.152). Grub Street. Kindle version

 

 

 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Very different:

 

Guest, Russell. Christopher Shores. A History of the Mediterranean Air War, 1940-1945. Volume 4: Sicily and Italy to the fall of Rome 14 May, 1943 – 5 June, 1944 (S.152). Grub Street. Kindle version

 

 

Thank you sir!

 

I think there is actually considerable overlap:

Hurricane II fighter bombers

Spit V

Bostons (A-20)

Early Mustangs (Note: I believe the A-36A and P-51A are the first Allison engined variants - but otherwise the P-51A is very similar to the Mustang Mk.I)

Beaufighters and Wellington bombers were still operating in the 1942 Channel theatre, even if they weren't used at Dieppe.

 

The big differences are the presence of Italian aircraft, American bombers & Baltimores, and large numbers of P-40 variants.

 

Also the absence of the Do-217 in Sicily, and the absence of early Spit IX and Typhoons (which were pretty peripheral to Dieppe anyway).

Edited November 13, 2021 by Avimimus

[sevenless]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

There is quite a lot of overlap:

Hurricane II fighter bombers

Spit V

Bostons (A-20)

Early Mustangs (Note: I believe the A-36A and P-51A are the first Allison engined variants - but otherwise the P-51A is very similar to the Mustang Mk.I)

Beaufighters and Wellington bombers were still operating in the 1942 Channel theatre, even if they weren't used at Dieppe.

 

The big differences are the presence of Italian aircraft, American bombers & Baltimores, and large numbers of P-40 variants. Also the absence of the Do-217 in Sicily.

 

Yep, some stuff could be recycled. Let´s see if they go into 1942/43 territory. Tunesia/Sicily would definitively be the main theme for 1943. Maybe after the next Eastfront expansion 44/45. We might learn before x-mas what is their plan for the next module.

Edited November 14, 2021 by sevenless

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

55 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Thank you sir!

 

I think there is actually considerable overlap:

Hurricane II fighter bombers

Spit V

Bostons (A-20)

Early Mustangs (Note: I believe the A-36A and P-51A are the first Allison engined variants - but otherwise the P-51A is very similar to the Mustang Mk.I)

Beaufighters and Wellington bombers were still operating in the 1942 Channel theatre, even if they weren't used at Dieppe.

 

The big differences are the presence of Italian aircraft, American bombers & Baltimores, and large numbers of P-40 variants.

 

Also the absence of the Do-217 in Sicily, and the absence of early Spit IX and Typhoons (which were pretty peripheral to Dieppe anyway).

Hurricane II we already have, the Spitfire Vs are different (mostly LF Vb for Dieppe and mostly LF Vc/trop for Husky), Bostons are the same but the one we have is a USAAF A-20B rather than an RAF Boston, the P-51A was rare/unseen in Sicily, the Do 217E is critical to Dieppe, the Spitfire F Mk.IXc is the whole point of the Dieppe air battle and we really could do with an Fw 190A-4 to do tip-and-run raiding in the Channel. They're not very compatible modules, really.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

https://www.iwm.org.uk/embed/?id=1060021075&media_id=585349

 

8 minutes ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/embed/?id=1060021075&media_id=585349

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/search/results#/?query=Dieppe&page=2&type=list&sort=Relevance&filterBy=&spellCheck=true

[Jaws2002]

1 hour ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/embed/?id=1060021075&media_id=585349

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/search/results#/?query=Dieppe&page=2&type=list&sort=Relevance&filterBy=&spellCheck=true

 

 

Lots of cool stuff at that link.

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/1689

[JG7_X-Man]

On 9/17/2021 at 12:28 PM, Avimimus said:

 

Yes it was significant!

• A major goal of the landing was to draw the Luftwaffe out - the raids would test the ability to conduct a cross-channel invasion, but a major justification was that it would bring the Luftwaffe into the air over the coast and allow the RAF to focus on destroying it in a decisive air battle.
• As SYN_Vander points out - Fighter Command alone flew more than 2,500 sorties over Dieppe during the raid. It was the largest and densest air-battle in the West between the end of the Blitz and the Strategic bombing campaign. The RAF committed 68 squadrons to Dieppe.
• The raid saw one of the last deployments in the west of massed daylight Luftwaffe bombers of the war (with high losses among the Do-217 units encouraging the transition to only night bombing)!
• The raid led to significant casualties among veteran Luftwaffe pilots.

In addition to the enormous number of sorties (with units flying many sorties during the landings) Dieppe acts as a Crescendo to the cross-channel raids that had been taking place throughout 1942... so one could always make a campaign that include reconnaissance for Operation Jubilee, hunting FW-190 intruders, and raids by Bostons (A-20 with British armament) in the lead up to the fighting.

 

I think it is also interesting as a contrast to Normandy - because the Allies didn't have air superiority and in some ways the Axis won.

 

It would be fun to have a Western use of some of the aircraft that were obsolete by Normandy - it allows match ups between the FW-190A3 and the Spit Vb (or Spit IX), the earliest versions of the Mustang... even sometimes the Bf-109F - the plane-set consists mainly of interesting variants of existing aircraft:

Fw-190A3, FW-190A4/U8 (bomber), Bf-109F, Do-217E, Ju-88 torpedo bombers.

Spit Vb, Spit IXc (early), Typhoon (early), Boston III (British A-20), Mustang I (P-40 engined British Mustangs with option for cannon armaments).

 

 

This post isn't accurate in the least!

#1 The goal was not to draw out the Luftwaffe - it was a dry run of the inevitable invasion of occupied Europe. 

The ACTUAL RAF/USAAF/RCAF loss were 106 aircraft

The ACTUAL Luftwaffe loss 48 aircraft (Do 217s lost were 33)

 

JG 26 and JG 2 were the only fighter units in the days fight.

On 11/8/2021 at 8:44 PM, IISG2_Wotan said:

Channel dash of 1942, is that when the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau ran through the English channel with the Luftwaffe providing fighter cover?

From memory I think Galland flew in that one(could be wrong my memory is not what it was)

 

This would be an excellent mission or mini campaign.

 

Wotan

I created a DCG campaign on that operation - you are correct. It was a fun one - making the The Fairey Swordfish make torpedo runs was exhausting! Since we don't have those in the game, it won't be authentic.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

This post isn't accurate in the least!

#1 The goal was not to draw out the Luftwaffe - it was a dry run of the inevitable invasion of occupied Europe. 

 

Got a citation for that?

 

A major goal was to draw out the Luftwaffe - I didn't say it was the only goal. The overall reasons for the Raid are debated, cloaked in secrecy as it was - and certainly preparing for a cross-channel invasion was one of them.

 

But a giant air battle was certainly a goal of Operation Jubilee - the RAF did anticipate drawing out and depleting Luftwaffe units - that was clearly both expected and part of the plan. The simple fact is that the Spit V lacked range - and getting experienced Luftwaffe units to the coast where they were vulnerable wasn't trivial - it was the RAF's plan to exploit that opportunity with an application of overwhelming force to produce the largest air battle since the Battle of Britain.

 

I can't help but to think of the Kuban Bridgehead's reputation as one of the densest  concentrations of air combat in the East - Dieppe was the densest in the West - and though it didn't last as long, the actual number of sorties was huge.

[JG7_X-Man]

JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe Donald Caldwell.

Pages 119 - 123.

----

Battles of World War II Martian Marix Evans

Page 32 - 33.

----

 

To draw the Luftwaffe out, the RAF figured out in late '41 that Circus [daytime bomber attacks with fighter escorts] did that just fine. They didn't need to mount an invasion to do that. The fighters were there to provide escort for the operation, there was no tricky- your sources are very wrong.

 

"The simple fact is that the Spit V lacked range - and getting experienced Luftwaffe units to the coast where they were vulnerable wasn't trivial - it was the RAF's plan to exploit that opportunity with an application of overwhelming force to produce the largest air battle since the Battle of Britain."

 

What experienced units do you speak of? There were only 2! JG2 and JG26 (all the rest were in North Africa, The Med and in Russia). Note: a few units were flying the Spitfire IX (early) FYI. The range of the Spitfire wasn't a factor here, it being outclassed by the the Fw 190A-2 and being on par with the Bf 109F-4 was the issue. The Allies had the superior numbers - but they didn't have the element of surprise. Both fighter units had less that 120 serviceable aircraft that day.

 

By the way, where are your sources for the "significant casualties" the Luftwaffe sustained? I am thinking - you inferred the operation information incorrectly from something you watched on TV or someone else's post that was incorrect.

 

Sometimes, Google is your friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid, just for the basics anyway.

 

This is the height of what was know as "Focke-Wulf Summer" by the RAF. Per Sholto Douglas: "We are now in a position of inferiority...there is no doubt in my mind and the mind of my fighter pilots that the Fw 190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

 

This was another one of Monty's brilliant idea - this is why is know at War College as the most over rated military leader of all time.

Edited November 16, 2021 by JG7_X-Man

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

On 11/14/2021 at 12:10 AM, Avimimus said:

Early Mustangs (Note: I believe the A-36A and P-51A are the first Allison engined variants - but otherwise the P-51A is very similar to the Mustang Mk.I)

 

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

An Allison engined Mustang would be a wonderful addition.

[Bremspropeller]

8 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

What experienced units do you speak of? There were only 2! JG2 and JG26 (all the rest were in North Africa, The Med and in Russia).

 

Each Geschwader consisting of three Gruppen (equivalent to a USAAF Fighter Group / RAF Fighter Wing).

While not really overwhelming that's still a force to be reckoned with.

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

And JG 2 and JG 26 were notably experienced units receiving top-of-the-line aircraft and significant investment.

[Mtnbiker1998]

13 hours ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

 

 

 

P-51A and all its variants is probably one of my top choices for a future collector plane. 

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raf-p-51-mustang-m

[453=SGII_Wotan]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:29 AM, JG7_X-Man said:

This post isn't accurate in the least!

#1 The goal was not to draw out the Luftwaffe - it was a dry run of the inevitable invasion of occupied Europe. 

The ACTUAL RAF/USAAF/RCAF loss were 106 aircraft

The ACTUAL Luftwaffe loss 48 aircraft (Do 217s lost were 33)

 

JG 26 and JG 2 were the only fighter units in the days fight.

I created a DCG campaign on that operation - you are correct. It was a fun one - making the The Fairey Swordfish make torpedo runs was exhausting! Since we don't have those in the game, it won't be authentic.

 

If you watch Mark Felton's Dieppe video on YouTube he actually leads with the below so its historical opinion again on what Dieppe was all about

• A major goal of the landing was to draw the Luftwaffe out - the raids would test the ability to conduct a cross-channel invasion, but a major justification was that it would bring the Luftwaffe into the air over the coast and allow the RAF to focus on destroying it in a decisive air battle.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

If you watch Mark Felton's Dieppe video on YouTube he actually leads with the below so its historical opinion again on what Dieppe was all about

• A major goal of the landing was to draw the Luftwaffe out - the raids would test the ability to conduct a cross-channel invasion, but a major justification was that it would bring the Luftwaffe into the air over the coast and allow the RAF to focus on destroying it in a decisive air battle.

 

Of course, that assumes that Mark Felton's reading of history is up-to-date and accurate. Honestly, that video might have planted a seed in my mind.

 

One thing I will say about Dieppe though: It was the pre-Normandy raid on the French coast... which meant there were a lot of reasons to keep details secret for a couple of years. There is also the fact that the raid was costly. Furthermore, that cost was disproportionately born by Canadians. So it is shrouded in secrecy, but also a source of fascination and controversy in some circles.

 

It also appears to have had multiple goals. Testing the feasibility of a land based invasion was clearly central, but raiding in force to require the Germans to hold back more units (away from other fronts) may have been a goal. Intelligence got involved with things like picking targets for the raid (e.g. potential capture of an enigma machine or radars). The RAF saw an opportunity to step up their Circus offensive against Luftwaffe fighter units...

 

So in a sense it is quite likely we're all wrong to some extent. I think it is pretty clear that gaining experience in amphibious landings was important, and that the RAF was also keen to destroy German fighters near the coast. If there is evidence that the Circus operations were being ended or that the RAF wasn't interested in picking a fight - I'd be open to it.

 

P.S. In any case, much like the Kuban Bridgehead, I think no one will disagree that it consisted of a huge air-combat zone of unusual density and intensity... i.e. something of interest for remembering in a flight simulator

Edited November 19, 2021 by Avimimus

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

Concerning the Mk Vb we currently have in game, the Dieppe raid featured significantly upgraded models of the Mk V featuring both the clipped wings as well as the Merlins 45M, 50, 50M, 55 and 55M, with the M variants featuring significantly more power at low altitutdes.

The LF Mk Vs were actually very comparable at low altitude to the Spitfire Mk IX.

[357th_KW]

The Lf VB was a 1943-44 modification and came well after Dieppe.  The current Vb we have with Merlin 45/46 options and +16lbs boost would be correct for Dieppe.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/w3228.html