Air battles over Dieppe Landings 1942

[Algy-Lacey]

3 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

I would love this! If the devs ever decide to go the route of "Plane Packs" then this would be an excellent option. Granted, I always felt a lot of these aircraft might be fitting for a "Battle of Italy" 1943 theater, but either way getting these planes and more in the game would make me very happy. Especially that P-51A...

 

I have often thought that a series of 'Plane Packs' without a new map or full DLC would be a great way to add some interesting variants that otherwise might not get into the sim. For the Channel we could have some aircraft that would open up new mission possibilities as well... such as...

 

Westland Lysander - There could be new mission types to land and pick up agents in France as well as Army Co-operation

Consolidated PBY Catalina - New missions involving Search and Rescue and Anti Submarine Warfare

 

Other Allied Aircraft to flesh out the planeset...

Spitfire MkIXc (early)

Typhoon (early)

Bristol Beaufighter

 

For Axis it is more difficult to find types for this timescale... some ideas...

 

Dornier Do217

Focke Wulf FW200 Condor

Blohm und Voss Bv138 Seaplane

Fieseler Fi156 Storch

Me109 G-1

 

I would guess that a pre-invasion Channel plane pack would sell well especially if it had novel mission types that you don't find in other DLC's. It would also be cheaper for Dev's than a full module.

 

From there, Developers could go to a late war Eastern Front or (my favourite) Italy. The Italian Serie 5 fighters would make for a very desirable Axis planeset imho... as people have pointed out, we are running out of options with regard to Axis aircraft.

 

Happy Landings,

Algy-Lacey

 

 

 

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

My previous notes for Dieppe were:

 

Whirlwind Mk.I (Collector)

Mustang Mk.I

Spitfire Mk.IXc

Typhoon Mk.I/early

Wellington Mk.X

 

Bf 110C-4

Fw 190A-1/2

Fw 190A-4

Ju 86R-2

Do 217E-2/4

 

A map expansion to include more of the UK and join the Normandy and Bodenplatte maps with a stent between Gravelines and Saint-Quentin and a campaign running for the full year of 1942, from the Channel Dash in February through the Rhubarb and Ramrod raids and the struggle to find an Allied counter to the 190, through Tip and Run and the Baedeker Blitz, up to the climatic Battle of Dieppe and then beyond into the maturity of the Spitfire IX and the transition to the Tiffybomber role. Having said that, the 110 was always a bit of a questionable add (there were some during the Channel Dash but I can't work out where from or where they went next), so I think I'd now replace it with the rather interesting Bf 109G-1. Along with the 86R and the modified Spitfires of the RAF High Altitude Flight, I think they could make for some really interesting gameplay that drags combat upwards.

[Jade_Monkey]

Going from memory, from the book Spitfire by John Nichol (very enjoyable and not dry like others), the Spitfire Mk Vs were getting butchered  by being forced to fly at certain low altitudes. The Fw190s were picking them apart, and some of them were also victims of friendly fire by the Royal Navy.

 

Alan Peart recounts flying a brand new Mk IX (one of the few produced) and going out there on a free flight. 

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

My previous notes for Dieppe were:

 

Whirlwind Mk.I (Collector)

Mustang Mk.I

Spitfire Mk.IXc

Typhoon Mk.I/early

Wellington Mk.X

 

Bf 110C-4

Fw 190A-1/2

Fw 190A-4

Ju 86R-2

Do 217E-2/4

 

I believe the Wellington wasn't actually used at Dieppe (but would be useful as an AI aircraft), so the Boston III might be a better choice (which was the main daylight bomber for the Allies, and is a version of the A-20).

 

The Fw-190A2 is similar enough to the A3 that it might make more sense to include the Bf-109G1.

 

The Bf-110C4 was obsolete (probably best left for a Battle of Britain/France module?). The Ju-86R would make an interesting 1942 high altitude recon aircraft to intercept (a different experience). So I definitely understand your argument there! That said, intercepting the Fw-189 would be a higher priority as an AI target for me personally  That said, it might add more gameplay to integrate torpedoes onto the Ju-88 (or add in the Beaufighter).

 

I do like your idea of a Whirlwind fighter-bomber... that'd be fun as a collector plane.
 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Avimimus

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

45 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

I believe the Wellington wasn't actually used at Dieppe (but would be useful as an AI aircraft), so the Boston III might be a better choice (which was the main daylight bomber for the Allies, and is a version of the A-20).

 

The Fw-190A2 is similar enough to the A3 that it might make more sense to include the Bf-109G1.

 

The Bf-110C4 was obsolete (probably best left for a Battle of Britain/France module?). The Ju-86R would make an interesting 1942 high altitude recon aircraft to intercept (a different experience). So I definitely understand your argument there! That said, intercepting the Fw-189 would be a higher priority as an AI target for me personally  That said, it might add more gameplay to integrate torpedoes onto the Ju-88 (or add in the Beaufighter).

 

I do like your idea of a Whirlwind fighter-bomber... that'd be fun as a collector plane.
 

I've got the Beau down for Italy first but it's a point well taken in isolation. 110C-4 is elderly but comes with a bunch of neat multirole options and is more of a direct counterpart to the Whirly so it's got a place in theory, although the 109G-1 is more competitive. Welly wasn't at Dieppe but was heavily used in Ramrod ops, in the Channel Dash and in Coastal Command roles along the Channel with torps and rockets; whereas Boston III is pretty marginally different from the A-20B we have and not terribly exciting.

 

Generally speaking, I think modules must stand alone. If you purchase Battle of Dieppe and only Battle of Dieppe, because you are short of hobby cash or you're not sure if you want to get into the game or the Channel Campaign 1942 has particular personal meaning to you, you must be able to play through the entire campaign, start to end, as a fighter or bomber pilot using only the eight core aircraft. Everything else is nice to have but not mandatory. Therefore, the Fw 190A-1/2, while almost indistinguishable from each other and from the A-3 by February of 1942, are critically necessary to the ability to fly a reasonable fighter campaign with either JG until the 190A-4 arrives. Sadly, I don't think we will be able to avoid selling two of nearly-the-same aircraft for much longer, even taking excursions to Axis Minor campaigns. Arguably, with the G-6/late and G-14, we're already at that point.

[Beebop]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:46 AM, Avimimus said:

I do like your idea of a Whirlwind fighter-bomber... that'd be fun as a collector plane.

Oh boy.  Here we go again.  Just like in IL-2 1946, a long standing running request for the Westland Whirlwind.

 

Why we probably won't see the Whirlwind....

* Length of Service Reasons:

The first production Whirlwind FB Mk I flew in June 1940 and deliveries to service squadrons began the following month. The Whirlwind was only ever operated by two RAF Squadrons, Nos. 137 and 263.

The lack of Peregine engines (850hp compared to the 650hp of the orginal Kestral design), meant that production of the Whirlwind ended after just 112 machines had been completed. The last Whirlwind was delivered to the RAF in January 1942 and it was withdrawn from service in 1943.

* Operational Reasons:

The operational history of the Whirlwind proved to be short. The last combat flight of a Whirlwind was in June 1943 during an attack on a German airfield at Poix in northeastern France. Soon after, 137 Squadron was re-equipped with the Hurricane Mk II and in December, 263 Squadron received rocket-firing Hawker Typhoons to replace their Whirlwinds.  (Which we already have available to us).

 

* Practical Reasons:

It's high landing speed means use only on long airstrips as in Bodenplatte.  Most airfields the the BoX Universe are too short.

 

* Financial Reasons:

Too limited of an audience to justify the money spent researching and developing it for the game for having such a niche role in WWII.

 

But.... it would still be fun to fly.  As a ground pounder myself I like the fact that the Whirlwind was most often used in ground-attack missions over France, attacking German airfields, marshalling yards, and railway traffic. The Whirlwind was used to particularly good effect as a gun platform for destroying locomotives. Some pilots were credited with several trains damaged or destroyed in a mission. The aircraft was also successful in hunting and destroying German E-boats which operated in the English Channel.

[56RAF_Stickz]

1 hour ago, Beebop said:

* Practical Reasons:

It's high landing speed means use only on long airstrips as in Bodenplatte.  Most airfields the the BoX Universe are too short.

 

that was an RAF fear and also that it would preclude night flying. In actual fact it mostly operated from some of the shortest fields in the uk (Exeter for one) and performed considerable night flying hours on intruders raids over France. It never had a problem with short fields and I see no reason why in game should be any different

Its operational history was hardly short. ffs it flew for nigh on 3 years almost completely unmodified, how many others did that. Which is about the same operational time of a tiffie. Whilst it never performed the role for which it was intended, it performed steller role on intruder raids as you listed.

see Westlands enigmatic fighter the westland whirlwind gives a very good history of its convoluted development - the reason for its near cancellation was mainly because the ministry thought westlands would be unable to build sufficient lysanders alongside whirlwind and that rolls royce had too much on their plate with merlin, plus griffin and vulture development (probably correctly in both cases) alongside westlands intransigence towards partnerships and test pilot recommendations

 

oh edit its last combat flights were nov 1943 - see  137 and 263 squadrons - the whirlwind years

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

While it's combat service was small and short in relative terms, when one considers specifically the Channel campaign and specifically 1942, it's pretty flexible. The two Whirly squadrons were constantly being shifted up and down the South coast to hit different targets and they took part in perhaps the widest variety of taskings of any aircraft in the entire theatre, across the course of the entire year. Perhaps they couldn't operate from the little muddy clearings that pass for airbases on Moscow, but they can most certainly operate from the air bases that they actually operated from.

 

The only argument against Whirlwind that holds much water, although I concede it holds a lot of water, is that it's a fairly obscure aircraft and it would probably involve significant amounts of research to get right, making it a bad investment for 1C. I dunno, I'd pay full Collector price for one, would everyone else?

[Beebop]

7 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I'd pay full Collector price for one, would everyone else?

I'm in.  I've flown the IL-2 1946 version and if it's even half right FM-wise I'd love to fly it with this games fidelity.

If there's even a rumor that it will be included I will set up a cot and get a large cooler and camp out in front if 1CGS's offices so I can be first in line.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Beebop

[Noisemaker]

1 hour ago, Beebop said:

I'm in.  I've flown the IL-2 1946 version and if it's even half right FM-wise I'd love to fly it with this games fidelity.

If there's even a rumor that it will be included I will set up a cot and get a large cooler and camp out in front if 1CGS's offices so I can be first in line.

With winter quickly arriving in Russia, that's not such a good idea.  Ask the Germans what happened when they tried it. 

[Diggun]

11 hours ago, Beebop said:

* Operational Reasons:

113 odd aircraft fully equipping 2x squadrons continually in operation for 3 years is a pretty impressive operational record if you ask me. 

 

Certainly longer than the 6 months (if we're being generous) that the K4 operated for.

 

For contrast, how many staffels were fully equipped with DB-605DC engined 109 K4's, and how long did they operate for? Genuine question! 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Diggun

[BlitzPig_EL]

It would be an immediate purchase on announcement from me.

[DD_Arthur]

10 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

The only argument against Whirlwind that holds much water, although I concede it holds a lot of water, is that it's a fairly obscure aircraft and it would probably involve significant amounts of research to get right, making it a bad investment for 1C. 

 

This.

[Calos_01]

It may be obscure, but instant purchase for me as well. As would be any form of cross channel battles 41-43.

[PatrickAWlson]

I think the relative obscurity of both the planes and the Channel battles themselves would make it a difficult sell in the larger market.  IMHO it is also the case that the single engine planes have mostly been done, leaving the twin engine planes as the most interesting.  In the end I think that this just targets too small of a customer base. Something like this needs a new sales model: Not So Great Battles (really not joking - some way to get more obscure stuff into marketable, profitable form)

 

 

[Chief_Mouser]

Dieppe:

 

Hurricane IIc - 8 squadrons - 16 missions

Typhoon Ia - 3 squadrons - 9 missions

Boston III - 5 squadrons - 14 missions

Blenheim IV - 2 squadrons - 3 missions

Beaufighter IF - 1 squadron - 1 sortie only

Spitfire Vb - 43 squadrons - Spitfires: 187 missions + 73 sorties... all versions.

Spitfire VI - 1 squadron

Spitfire IXc - 4 squadrons

Mustang 1a - 4 squadrons - 67 sorties

B-17E - 4 squadrons - 1 mission not near Dieppe

 

More or less ?.

So leaving out the Beaufighter, Blenheims and B-17s (and Spitfire VI) we still have a cracking planeset for a Dieppe scenario, as long as everyone's happy with the later variants of the Mustang (using the incoming III version), A-20 and Typhoon. Shame that there's no Do217 substitute for the Luftwaffe though.

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

4 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

Typhoon Ia - 3 squadrons - 9 missions

Is that right, the Ia with the 12x .303 wing? I didn't realise they made three squadrons worth and kept them going for a year!

 

I think Pat Wilson is right that we're at fairly full stretch for German single engine fighters, there are only a handful more that are reasonably different from our current lot and many of those served for short periods of time or were only in limited service. Sooner or later we're going to have to decide what that means, whether we'll have non-equal-aircraft modules like FC2, whether we do modules with the expectation that you have to own a specific previous module to play the next one, whatever.

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, 216th_Cat said:

Dieppe:

 

Hurricane IIc - 8 squadrons - 16 missions

Typhoon Ia - 3 squadrons - 9 missions

Boston III - 5 squadrons - 14 missions

Blenheim IV - 2 squadrons - 3 missions

Beaufighter IF - 1 squadron - 1 sortie only

Spitfire Vb - 43 squadrons - Spitfires: 187 missions + 73 sorties... all versions.

Spitfire VI - 1 squadron

Spitfire IXc - 4 squadrons

Mustang 1a - 4 squadrons - 67 sorties

B-17E - 4 squadrons - 1 mission not near Dieppe

 

More or less ?.

So leaving out the Beaufighter, Blenheims and B-17s (and Spitfire VI) we still have a cracking planeset for a Dieppe scenario, as long as everyone's happy with the later variants of the Mustang (using the incoming III version), A-20 and Typhoon. Shame that there's no Do217 substitute for the Luftwaffe though.

 

 

Going to use the Ju88 as a stand in for the Do217.  Also using the A20 for everything British with two engines.  Not perfect but better than 

1. Not doing it

2. No German/British medium at all

 

Thinking about using the upcoming Handley Page for the B-17, but that might be stretching things a bit too far.

[SYN_Vander]

5 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Going to use the Ju88 as a stand in for the Do217.  Also using the A20 for everything British with two engines.  Not perfect but better than 

1. Not doing it

2. No German/British medium at all

 

I think that'll be just fine!

 

Quote

Thinking about using the upcoming Handley Page for the B-17, but that might be stretching things a bit too far.

 

Excuse me WHAT?!? ?  took me a minute to realize you mean the HP 400 LOL! ?

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by SYN_Vander

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

48 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Thinking about using the upcoming Handley Page for the B-17, but that might be stretching things a bit too far.

Well, it's got under half the payload of the A-20B, so I don't think that's really a useful solution! Honestly the B-26 is kinda closeish for the really early B-17E's defensive armament.

[PatrickAWlson]

46 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Well, it's got under half the payload of the A-20B, so I don't think that's really a useful solution! Honestly the B-26 is kinda closeish for the really early B-17E's defensive armament.

 

But it's really big!

 

Being serious I would either not model those units or (rethinking A20 for everything) use the B-25 as a B-17 stand in for Dieppe.  Bring in the B-26 in 1943 in a career.  Both the B-25 and B-26 did not appear in Europe until 1943 from what I can gather, however, they make much more believable higher altitude level bombers than the A20.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

17 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I think Pat Wilson is right that we're at fairly full stretch for German single engine fighters, there are only a handful more that are reasonably different from our current lot and many of those served for short periods of time or were only in limited service. Sooner or later we're going to have to decide what that means, whether we'll have non-equal-aircraft modules like FC2, whether we do modules with the expectation that you have to own a specific previous module to play the next one, whatever.

It's always fun to speculate I think there are basically four options, given that the German late-war fighters are mostly done and the Battle of Britain is already covered by CloD:

- Early barbarossa, preferably in an area that could be used for early 1944 scenarios too (you make an excellent case for Odessa in the Suggestions forum, I think the other option is Finland).

- Battle of Berlin with Wunderwaffen (He-162, Ta-152, Me-163), late-war Soviet aircraft and a four-engined bomber to intercept.

- Something that involves other axis powers than the Germans: Finland or Italy.

- Pacific. IL2 will have to go there at some point. If necessary with an unequal planeset.

 

My bet is on the final two. Whatever the case, I don't think a dedicated Dieppe module is an option, given that the current planeset already covers most of it.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

15 min starts Dieeppe raid.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR

[Avimimus]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:45 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Going to use the Ju88 as a stand in for the Do217.  Also using the A20 for everything British with two engines.  Not perfect but better than 

1. Not doing it

2. No German/British medium at all

 

Well, our A-20B is very close to the Boston III.

 

Ju-88 were also used during Dieppe to attack shipping (so they are pretty good stand-ins for the Do-217). 

 

The Blenheims, Defiants, Walrus, Beaufighters, and B-17s were all in secondary roles. It'd be nice to have the Beaufighter for the engagements that happened over the night after the withdrawal (as raids against shipping continued) but it really isn't that necessary. Even the Typhoon was pretty peripheral.

 

So I'd focus on:

- A-20B (Boston III)

- Ju-88 (stand in for Do-217 and Ju-88s)

- Spitfire Vb

- Hurricane IIc

- P-51B (stand in for the Mustang Mk1 in the low-altitude recon role)

- Fw-190A3 (both as the main fighter and as stand-ins for the a A4/U18 bombers)

- A few Bf-190F or G2 (stand in for G1)

- A few Spit IXe (stand in for Spit IXc)

- Maybe a few early Typhoon

 

This does make me want a few AI aircraft though (e.g. Do-217, Beaufighter)!  

Edited November 8, 2021 by Avimimus

[Dennis_Nedry]

I’ve been thinking a lot about a Battle of Dieppe scenario recently.  I think there are a lot of aircraft from 41-42 that would be great to have.  Swordfish, Beaufighter, Beaufort, Do 217, Ar 196 etc.   
 

Don’t forget the Channel Dash is Feb 42.  This was a major operation and had a lot of

air activity associated with it.  

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Channel dash of 1942, is that when the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau ran through the English channel with the Luftwaffe providing fighter cover?

From memory I think Galland flew in that one(could be wrong my memory is not what it was)

 

This would be an excellent mission or mini campaign.

 

Wotan

[Dennis_Nedry]

1 hour ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

Channel dash of 1942, is that when the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau ran through the English channel with the Luftwaffe providing fighter cover?

From memory I think Galland flew in that one(could be wrong my memory is not what it was)

 

This would be an excellent mission or mini campaign.

 

Wotan

Yes it is! I think a Battle of Dieppe would be great starting with the Channel Dash and ending with Dieppe.  Six months of action over the channel bookended by two major engagements.

[PatrickAWlson]

15 hours ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

Channel dash of 1942, is that when the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau ran through the English channel with the Luftwaffe providing fighter cover?

From memory I think Galland flew in that one(could be wrong my memory is not what it was)

 

This would be an excellent mission or mini campaign.

 

Wotan

 

That is definitely going to be added as an iconic mission in PWCG.  If might be a couple of destroyers making the dash, but oh well  

[Dennis_Nedry]

Scharnhorst/Gneisenau were basically the same so maybe we will get a model one day.  3 “crap” aircraft of this era I would love would be a Swordfish, Ar 196, and a Lockheed Hudson!

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

A relatively minor possible change for any 1942 scenario would be the inclusion of the Merlin 45M for the LF Mk Vb.

 

 

[sevenless]

5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

That is definitely going to be added as an iconic mission in PWCG.  If might be a couple of destroyers making the dash, but oh well  

 

Would be very cool, if possible.

 

 

Channel Dash - Wikipedia

[Dennis_Nedry]

14 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Would be very cool, if possible.

 

 

Channel Dash - Wikipedia

Assuming that’s somewhat close to accurate we are looking at over 700 aircraft involved within a couple days ?

[jollyjack]

food for a wish-list regarding Normandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

[LukeFF]

49 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

food for a wish-list regarding Normandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

 

Huh, what? What on earth does Bismarck have to do with Normandy? ?

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, jollyjack said:

food for a wish-list regarding Normandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

Neither the Bismarck nor the Tirpitz ever operated in or near the English Channel. Are you thinking of the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and/or Prinz Eugen? Those ships were the focus of the 1942 Channel Dash.

[Feathered_IV]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:00 AM, Algy-Lacey said:

For the Channel we could have some aircraft that would open up new mission possibilities as well... such as...

 

Westland Lysander - There could be new mission types to land and pick up agents in France as well as Army Co-operation

Consolidated PBY Catalina - New missions involving Search and Rescue and Anti Submarine Warfare

I would welcome some things like that.  Particularly the Lysander ops.  One serious issue to overcome however would be the extreme transit times that you would get to and from the periphery of the mission areas.  Even with the semi-functional time skip that the BoX series currently employs, the missions would be an endurance test for all but the most indefatigable players.  I think we’d need something like the warp-to-next-waypoint feature that CFS 2/3 used to make it viable.  ?

[jollyjack]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Huh, what? What on earth does Bismarck have to do with Normandy? ?

 

Well according that article the wreck was found near Brest:

 

.... The wreck of Bismarck was discovered on 8 June 1989 by Dr. Robert Ballard, the oceanographer responsible for finding RMS Titanic.^[140]Bismarck was found to be resting on its keel at a depth of approximately 4,791 m (15,719 ft),^[141] about 650 km (400 mi) west of Brest. The ship struck an extinct underwater volcano, which rose some 1,000 m (3,300 ft) above the surrounding abyssal plain, triggering a 2 km (1.2 mi) landslide. .......

Edited November 12, 2021 by jollyjack

[sevenless]

9 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

Well according that article the wreck was found near Brest:

 

.... The wreck of Bismarck was discovered on 8 June 1989 by Dr. Robert Ballard, the oceanographer responsible for finding RMS Titanic.^[140]Bismarck was found to be resting on its keel at a depth of approximately 4,791 m (15,719 ft),^[141] about 650 km (400 mi) west of Brest. The ship struck an extinct underwater volcano, which rose some 1,000 m (3,300 ft) above the surrounding abyssal plain, triggering a 2 km (1.2 mi) landslide. .......

 

Good man. It was found 650 km west of Brest. That is as near as Berlin is 650 km north of Vienna. Or as London is 650 km south of Edinburgh.

[Avimimus]

Here is a question:

 

How different is the operation Husky planeset from Dieppe? i.e. Would a 1943 Sicily scenario provide enough aircraft to allow a simulating Dieppe?

[CountZero]

There is enough differant allied airplanes types or subtypes to have 5 or more for both DLC if they wont to make them. 

But it dont mather, next DLC is 110% Poland 45