Turret gunners accuracy

[echo-2]

Try out to shoot down an enemy He-111-h16 formation.

Feeling unlucky?

Then try yourself as a gunner. Feeling unlucky again?

AI gunners have absolutely insane accuracy. They start shooting more than from 1km  and if only 800m separate you and you dont maneuver for at least 1 sec you get burst to the face.

Nor DCS, nor CloD doesnt have these absurd shooters. There they usually start from 500-700m and get good accuracy at 300. More than 2 times less!

Does anybody have the same problem in BoX as I?

[BlitzPig_EL]

It's an old issue.  The AI are all snipers, and are totally unaffected by the maneuvers of their aircraft.

 

Also, never, ever, go head on against an AI fighter. It won't end well for you.

[Gambit21]

11 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It's an old issue.  The AI are all snipers, and are totally unaffected by the maneuvers of their aircraft.

 

Also, never, ever, go head on against an AI fighter. It won't end well for you.

 

Yet they are very poor at head-on shots with each other...which is odd.

[KPnutskgwanchos]

There are some good mods that seem to help with this ... check out the mods section

[easterling77]

It seems to me it depends to a certain degree on the plane you ar facing in regards of blind spots and the actual weapon of the gunner.

 

For example:

I fear the Peshka Gunners...they killed me countless times but Havocs didn't hit me as often as my Sowjet nemesis.

 

But surely their aiming, especially in deflective shooting is crazy.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

My personal experience in single player is that AI gunners are tough but only rarely pull off shots that should not be possible.  Most of the times I get hit, it was my own fault.

But, that is my personal experience and I can't speak for anybody else.   The only time I think gunners are totally unrealistic for larger bombers is when they shoot accurately while inverted.  

 

Multiplayer is a completely different story though.  I pretty much accept that if I attack a gunner-equipped plane in MP, I'm going to be hit no matter what. Me-110 and Ju-87 tail gunners will shoot through their own tails with no self-damage if you get into their 6 o'clock blind spot.

[CountZero]

When it comes to SP, if im playing as fighter AI gunners should be -0 skill, shooting just for effects.

If im SP GA or bomber AI should be Ace+, same in MP because in MP you have small numbers of GA or bomber players, most play as fighters, so GA and bomber guys need better then real gunners to compensate playing alone and not having benefits GA or bomber pilots had.

 

Bigger gun on turret , more problems, Pe-2 has 12mm, H16 has 13mm so they will hurt more when conect.

 

Only thing i found missing is more dumb down skill set, with % of hit 0.001 of gunners, so in SP as fighter player i dont have to care about random pk when attacking bombers. In MP i have no problems if players have ace skill AI, they need it there, also improvment for Ace skill AI that he should not be able to shoot frendly bombers ? .

Edited September 7, 2021 by CountZero

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Just look how fast the Pe-2 gunner swaps the machine from side to side or jumps between the belly gun or his side gun. Their ability to pull off shots is phenomenal. Had the real life gunners been this good, the escort fighters would not be needed. 

 

Skill settings vary from this golden eye all seeing sniper to crosseyed Annie not hitting a barn while inside it. Take your pick. Would be nice to one day have gunners that are affected by G forces, plane attitude, visibility and so forth. 

[SYN_Ricky]

One of my best sorties on the Finnish server was flying a JU-88. I got damaged by flak, so I flew low while getting chased by a pack of fighters. My gunners shot down 3 La-5 in a couple of minutes. Very fun when you're on the giving end, maddening when you're getting sniped repeatedly while attacking planes with gunners. 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

In MP you can never really be sure if the plane you're attacking has human gunners or not. If the bomber/attacker pilot knows what's what, they'll probably be like me and have hotkeys to switch to specific crew positions instead of fiddling around in the cycle. Of course, it doesn't always result in success; but it could be part of what you're experiencing. In SP, I've mostly experienced getting beaned when I've done something dumb, but I have ran into the occasional 'magic bullet' once and a while.

A lot of times what I think people experience also is a disillusioned as to what some later bombers like the He-111 H-16 has as defenses. It's got a 13mm on top, with twin belt fed 7.62mm MGs on the bottom. So taking a engine or face full of that might not be a good idea.

 

I've recorded a few videos of me blasting a few fighters in MP as a human gunner... really makes you think about how you position yourself.

Spoiler

 

(not a kill)

 

 

 

Try attacking at high speeds and angles that you know are a dead zone. AI and humans are unpredictable!

[rieper_420]

@echo-2 I agree on your points

=> if you fly Singleplayer, there is some mod which tries to mitigate some effects:

 

 

Best regards

Rieper

[Lusekofte]

Before  in my mp experience . I was reading complaints in the chat about sniper gunners while I manned the turret. 

Truth is, 109 pilots in Eastern front did not put themselves in front of the gunners in IL 2 and pe2

Being a static target in the rear is death. And a lot of people do that.

Devs are aware of the sniper tendency of all ai gunners.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

9 hours ago, CountZero said:

When it comes to SP, if im playing as fighter AI gunners should be -0 skill, shooting just for effects.

If im SP GA or bomber AI should be Ace+, same in MP because in MP you have small numbers of GA or bomber players, most play as fighters, so GA and bomber guys need better then real gunners to compensate playing alone and not having benefits GA or bomber pilots had.

 

Bigger gun on turret , more problems, Pe-2 has 12mm, H16 has 13mm so they will hurt more when conect.

 

Only thing i found missing is more dumb down skill set, with % of hit 0.001 of gunners, so in SP as fighter player i dont have to care about random pk when attacking bombers. In MP i have no problems if players have ace skill AI, they need it there, also improvment for Ace skill AI that he should not be able to shoot frendly bombers ? .

Making the gunners unrealistic accurate because  if not, nobody will be flying alone in multiplayer... well I understand but not agree,  but what if those guys are squadron , flying  in big wing formation with escort and have this OP AI gunners.  Both situations are unrealistic. Lone bomber pilots eventually will adapt and start to coordinate. Even fighters left alone in server start to be bored in only dogfights without accomplishing objectives and start  do help alone bombers.  In real life slow alone  bombers  had little chance to RTB.

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

Before  in my mp experience . I was reading complaints in the chat about sniper gunners while I manned the turret. 

Truth is, 109 pilots in Eastern front did not put themselves in front of the gunners in IL 2 and pe2

Being a static target in the rear is death. And a lot of people do that.

Devs are aware of the sniper tendency of all ai gunners.

Of course dead six is bad position for fighter and good for gunner.  This situation - you are  attacking from above ,   passing Pe2 in  high speed dive,  and you are visible to dorsal gunner just for second or two but he know you will be there and fires exactly , perfect shots.  This is unrealistic nobody could predict that trajectory or have so quick responses. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

This is unrealistic nobody could predict that trajectory or have so quick responses. 

As I said devs know this. They have not yet managed to dumb them down.

The software know where you are. Ai is part of that software.

This is a issue known since the birth of this franchise.  No need for any further input

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 minute ago, LuseKofte said:

As I said devs know this. They have not yet managed to dumb them down.

The software know where you are. Ai is part of that software.

This is a issue known since the birth of this franchise.  No need for any further input

Yes I know that for years,  but OP is new and asking.  So there you have it. "No need for any futher input" is just yours opinion as the AI which we have is correct. We are free to say what is allowed by forum standards.

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Making the gunners unrealistic accurate because  if not, nobody will be flying alone in multiplayer... well I understand but not agree,  but what if those guys are squadron , flying  in big wing formation with escort and have this OP AI gunners.  Both situations are unrealistic. Lone bomber pilots eventually will adapt and start to coordinate. Even fighters left alone in server start to be bored in only dogfights without accomplishing objectives and start  do help alone bombers.  In real life slow alone  bombers  had little chance to RTB.

Of course dead six is bad position for fighter and good for gunner.  This situation - you are  attacking from above ,   passing Pe2 in  high speed dive,  and you are visible to dorsal gunner just for second or two but he know you will be there and fires exactly , perfect shots.  This is unrealistic nobody could predict that trajectory or have so quick responses. 

Years of playing MP tech me players majorit of time play alone in bombers or GA, i know bomber groups and played with few still active ones, but bomber groups show up from time to time on servers, its not comon thing online to have bomber squads every day on server, so i would not go by them to set AI gunners, i would go by players who play the most, give them better chance to do something, even with ace gunners they are tosted, fighters dont escort them they use them as bait, and they usealy get attacked by more then 1-2 enemy.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

The gunner of the IL2 1943 is the worst by far for some reason. Not only is he accurate af and always aware about were you are but the UBS MG does as much damage as a 20mm cannon. I avoid them like the plague even when flying FW190. Pretty realistic.

[PatrickAWlson]

6 hours ago, rieper_420 said:

@echo-2 I agree on your points

=> if you fly Singleplayer, there is some mod which tries to mitigate some effects:

 

 

Best regards

Rieper

 

For those that want less accurate gunners without more powerful ammo there is the "Blind Gunners" series for planes, ships and AAA.  I use these and some sense of normalcy is restored.  The name is (fortunately) not really accurate.  The gunners are definitely not blind.  AAA still kills if you are stupid or unlucky.  it is just toned down to something that to me is more sane.

[easterling77]

33 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

For those that want less accurate gunners without more powerful ammo there is the "Blind Gunners" series for planes, ships and AAA.  I use these and some sense of normalcy is restored.  The name is (fortunately) not really accurate.  The gunners are definitely not blind.  AAA still kills if you are stupid or unlucky.  it is just toned down to something that to me is more sane.

Speaking of AAA accuracy - I use this chance to give you my greatest "Thank You Sir!" - 

Last month I finally installed your PWCG (after allready 1100h SP flying time) and its  awesome espacially in regards of the AAA behavior.

It's not invincible but really more challenging than in the normal ingame carrer mode - now I have kind of respect for these eager AAA gunners after getting blwon out of the sky a couple of times - never had such experiences in the carrer mode.

 

Don't know what you had adjusted to the AAA, but I think, you did a really good job - not to mention your outstanding creation of PWCG.

 

Best greetings

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by easterling77

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

8 minutes ago, meplanes1969 said:

Will we get this great mod in the base game very soon ?

No , I doubt ever. 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

For those that want less accurate gunners without more powerful ammo there is the "Blind Gunners" series for planes, ships and AAA.  I use these and some sense of normalcy is restored.  The name is (fortunately) not really accurate.  The gunners are definitely not blind.  AAA still kills if you are stupid or unlucky.  it is just toned down to something that to me is more sane.

 

Definitely worthwhile.

 

I think one of the best things coming out of the playable anti-aircraft guns is a better sense of just how hard it is to hit an airplane from the ground.

 

I do wish that the gunner systems for aircraft were overhauled to have more modelling of quirks (e.g. gee forces impacting the player's aim) or at the very least creating separate controls for ring rotation and bar height (so they aren't tied to the pintle/swivel mounts in WWI turrets and can be controlled separately).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I think the simplest thing they could do for aircraft gunners is to simply open up their dispersion. It is clear they are far too accurate, in general, compared to actual humans.

[ilmavoimat]

15 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I think the simplest thing they could do for aircraft gunners is to simply open up their dispersion. It is clear they are far too accurate, in general, compared to actual humans.

It's ridiculous! The AI gunners are ludicrously over accurate! When a gunner in a Ju88 being thrown all over the sky can get a head shot with the first burst from an MG15 from a kilometre away something is clearly not right.

[Lusekofte]

6 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Yes I know that for years,  but OP is new and asking.  So there you have it. "No need for any futher input" is just yours opinion as the AI which we have is correct. We are free to say what is allowed by forum standards.

Sorry. My no native English make me come off as Rud. It was not my intensjon.

My first post was intended as a explonation on how skilled fighterpilots in FNBF got killed attacking my low flying IL 2. 

We are both well informed on why. Had no intention arguing with you

[JLean]

Another point here is that those "super sniper rear gunners" will increase odds to survive in a bomber or attack plane => people more like to play with these in MP.

So then fighter jockey have more variation in targets.

 

Are those head shots realistic... no but in the end this is also a game.

 

Maybe one change could be done that is to reduce those pilots kills and then add maybe engine damage probability.  Then you just leave bomber alone and can jump or ditch... but this would then add occasions that fighters dare to attack bombers. SO maybe current set up is safest for bomber pilots.  

 

But it would be a bit more realistic simulation than head shot trough some small hole between armored glass and engine block.    

 

 JLean

 

Disclaimer: I am mostly flying with fighters

[Lusekofte]

26 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I think the simplest thing they could do for aircraft gunners is to simply open up their dispersion. It is clear they are far too accurate, in general, compared to actual humans.

Do you mean the spread of bullets? 

 

I am divided in this issue myself. Because if I fly bombers online I need that protection. But I meet myself at the door when it comes to sniper aa and aaa. 

But they are unrealistic in a way never seen before in any game. I do not disagree on that. If they could have been equal to a good human gunner. I would be very happy

[percydanvers]

7 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

The gunner of the IL2 1943 is the worst by far for some reason. Not only is he accurate af and always aware about were you are but the UBS MG does as much damage as a 20mm cannon. I avoid them like the plague even when flying FW190. Pretty realistic.

I've tested flying the FW-190 A-8 in the Sturmjager configuration, which, bear in mind, is meant to take on B-17s and their multitude of gunners, and even the briefest exposure to the Il-2 1943 tail gunner's firing arc is instantly lethal when the AI aicraft is set to a high skill level. 

I don't agree with the mindset that this should be done to support playing as a bomber in MP. I play almost entirely offline and this often makes scripted campaigns needlessly frustrating. It seems also like this would disincentivize you to have human gunners on bombers. Why bother to have you friend be your tail gunner when he has no hope at all of doing a better job than the AI? It seems to defeat the purpose of having multi-crew at all.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 hours ago, percydanvers said:

I've tested flying the FW-190 A-8 in the Sturmjager configuration, which, bear in mind, is meant to take on B-17s and their multitude of gunners, and even the briefest exposure to the Il-2 1943 tail gunner's firing arc is instantly lethal when the AI aicraft is set to a high skill level. 

I don't agree with the mindset that this should be done to support playing as a bomber in MP. I play almost entirely offline and this often makes scripted campaigns needlessly frustrating. It seems also like this would disincentivize you to have human gunners on bombers. Why bother to have you friend be your tail gunner when he has no hope at all of doing a better job than the AI? It seems to defeat the purpose of having multi-crew at all.

 

I agree with 100% of this.

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, percydanvers said:

I've tested flying the FW-190 A-8 in the Sturmjager configuration, which, bear in mind, is meant to take on B-17s and their multitude of gunners, and even the briefest exposure to the Il-2 1943 tail gunner's firing arc is instantly lethal when the AI aicraft is set to a high skill level.

 

More than likely you're being killed by an AP round going directly through your armored windscreen. The extra armor plates in the fuselage don't matter when the AI can hit your weak points like Luke Skywalker in the Death Star trench.

 

As far as I can tell, .50 AP will penetrate armored glass pretty reliably.

 

In terms of the rear gunner killing your engine with oil leaks and fires, that's usually accomplished very quickly even with .30 cals.

[Luftschiff]

Agreed, and I play primarily bombers/attackers. I'm fine with gunners being good, but it's absolutely not realistic at present - and when the guns are 12.7s you will frequently see a PE-2 or 88 gunner pull off a snap-shot while inverted in a 5g spiral dive that instantly pilot kills a plane going across their arc of fire at 600km/h, being exposed for a fraction of a second. 

I want gunners to shoot down players. I do not want them to bend the laws of physics and ignore all semblance of human reaction speeds to do so.
I'm not even primarily upset with their accuracy, it's their reaction speeds in switching between gun positions, tracking and HANDING OVER targets that really make something like the Peshka pure suicide to attack. 

Something should really be done, after all these years.
Slower reaction times (especially when handing off targets to other gunners) and an accuracy that gradually builds up, for instance, could go a long way to alleviate this.

[oc2209]

Just did a few quicks against a Sturm '43, and the extra armor for the 190A-8 does seem to help a little. It won't save your engine, but it might save your pilot.

 

I had two attempts with a 109, and in the first, I took a belly hit as I pulled away. Fuel tank fire, pilot death. Here's the 'good' 109 attempt:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The best part is when he hits me several times while I'm rolling at point-blank range.

 

This is the 190 attempt:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Funny thing here is how he's hitting me in my climb, even though he clearly could not, in real life, be aiming down the barrel of the gun or using the sight. So he is, in effect, hip-shooting a machine gun. An oddity does occur, however, when the AI seemingly loses track of me; notice how his gun barrel is pointing up even after I've started my low approach. His gun barrel only drops when I hit the plane (my aiming is extra terrible because my windscreen's black with oil by then).

 

Here's a screen of the initial hits I take in the climb:

 

 

And finally, I decided to see how well the AI can cope with speed. It turns out that speed does reduce its ability to track, even on Ace.

 

I enter my climb in the 262 at about 330 MPH, which defeats his tracking, unlike in the above 190's case.

 

Spoiler

 

 

My 262 is hit several times, including some light engine damage, but it's nothing compared to the pasting I get in the prop planes.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oc2209

[oc2209]

I did a few more quicks against Pe-2s, all on Ace. I'm really not noticing accuracy in the extreme firing ranges as much as I used to. I'm unsure if this behavior is different because I'm not in career mode, or if there's another explanation (like my evasion methods are confusing the AI).

 

I've found there's a pretty clear increase in the probability you'll be catastrophically damaged if you go within 350m of the bomber.

 

Here's a failed 109 attempt:

 

Spoiler

 

 

It failed for two reasons: my multiple 30mm strikes didn't destroy the plane; and I got too close to begin with.

 

Now, observe the successful attempt (note that I'm not hit by defensive fire in all of the following clips):

 

Spoiler

 

 

A successful attack in a Fw-190 (no 30mm):

 

Spoiler

 

 

And finally, a 262 run:

 

Spoiler

 

 

In all of the successful attacks, the key factors are either in firing from long range, or approaching at high speed and firing very briefly. If you don't destroy your target or at least kill the gunner(s) in your first pass, you'll almost certainly get hit on the breakaway. I need to come up with a better break maneuver.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oc2209

[[DBS]Browning]

The gunners are more accurate than humans in some situations, but also worse in others. 

When I've tested it, I outperform the ai when I operate the gun my self and I suspect that will be the same for most people. 

The overall difficulty is about right, it's just that they hit in situations where they should miss more and miss in situations where they should hit more. 

The biggest problem I have with gunners is that they are happy to shoot through friendly bombers in formation and don't stop once they start hitting a friendly. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by [DBS]Browning

[Ribbon]

AI gunners indeed are super uber accurate but when it comes to MP and guys flying alone or in pair without cover this is the only defense they have making it somewhat realistic....giving them small chance to survive.

Yet skilled fighter pilot will still manage to shoot them down.

Let's not scare away these small number of sadistic bombers flying online!

 

But for SP devs cpuld introduce new setting dumbing down AI gunners

 

 

[CountZero]

14 hours ago, percydanvers said:

I've tested flying the FW-190 A-8 in the Sturmjager configuration, which, bear in mind, is meant to take on B-17s and their multitude of gunners, and even the briefest exposure to the Il-2 1943 tail gunner's firing arc is instantly lethal when the AI aicraft is set to a high skill level. 

I don't agree with the mindset that this should be done to support playing as a bomber in MP. I play almost entirely offline and this often makes scripted campaigns needlessly frustrating. It seems also like this would disincentivize you to have human gunners on bombers. Why bother to have you friend be your tail gunner when he has no hope at all of doing a better job than the AI? It seems to defeat the purpose of having multi-crew at all.

There is skill to chose from, they can make lowest skill for AI to be more inaccurate then its now, so in SP this is one that can be used by mission builders. What MP players wont from AI gunners dont impact SP players when you have differant skills for AI gunner that can be set, they just need to adjust acc diferances betwen skills, now lowest skill is to accurate, and ace skill is used in MP because this is highest one, i doubt anyone uses that one in SP missions.

 

Regarding muli-crew, with only 84 slots on server for both sides and air and ground you dont have options to multi-crew, every slot is more important to be his own vechicle/plane, you have small numbers of slots, if they wont to promote multi crew they need to atleast double slots numbers. You can set AI gunner skill to low and try it in MP, it wont work thats why they are on highest skill, you dont have options to have human gunner every time you play.

 

If you think that AI gunner how they are now is making playing SP campains frustrating, i wonder how long would you play in bomber/ga role online even with AI that is ace skill as your gunner... In MP guys who play on server when its empty are GA/bomber guys, they start to fill in servers, they do stuff, they atract fighter players, you cant have server with only fighters vs fighters, and you can always fined new fighter guys, its harder to keep bomber/ga guys interested to stay and play if you dont give them any chances, and ace level of ai will atleast make fighter guys think twice before siting on his 6. And again its not effecting SP as you can just set skill in SP for min posible, like its now used, problem is that skill is still to acc for relax SP with no consecvences, if i have 30min-1h to play i dont need to be pk when i attack ai bombers and that ruining my sortie, in SP i wont things to look like they are dangerous but realy not be dangerous, and i can speed up time and pass boring parts faster, if i wont to get frustrated and play on harder level i play in MP, but that asks more time to spend playing then SP as you cant just speed up time and skip boring parts.

Edited September 9, 2021 by CountZero

[BlitzPig_EL]

On 9/7/2021 at 5:10 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

Yet they are very poor at head-on shots with each other...which is odd.

Why expect the program to shoot itself?  Our digital overlords want us.  

[Luftschiff]

As stated, I don't mind the gunners being on high setting and being accurate in MP - but they shouldn't be allowed to break the laws of physics to do so.
We wouldn't tolerate it in AI pilots, so we shouldn't tolerate it in gunners.

 

They have perfect communication.

They have perfect awareness.
They can trade off targets between gunners with 0 delay and perfect accuracy.

They are not affected by heavy maneuvering or G forces.

Unlike ground AA, they cannot be suppressed.

 

There's a ton of things that should affect accuracy that doesn't, at present. Allow me to illustrate:

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

the somersaulting PE's from 30mm... lol..

 

why does the round "push" the plane's tail section down? ? 

 

 

[[DBS]Browning]

2 hours ago, Luftschiff said:

There's a ton of things that should affect accuracy that doesn't, at present. Allow me to illustrate:

 

 

The top one points out the biggest issue.

The bottom on has been somewhat fixed with patches. The AI often does not fire at all in that situation now  so long as some g is being pulled.

 

Conversely, the AI will sometimes fire endlessly at a static target on the 6oc without hitting at all, in a situation where a human gunner would make mincemeat of the enemy.

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, 30speed said:

the somersaulting PE's from 30mm... lol..

 

why does the round "push" the plane's tail section down? ?

 

 

It doesn't.

 

There weren't 30mm hits to the tail. Watch the replay in .25 speed. I could find the original track and play it even slower in the game, but why bother. The Pe-2 flips after the explosion when the Fw-190 is hitting it, and I only had 20mm at the time. The explosion is causing the pitching.