Level of cockpit interaction!

[Guest deleted@1562]

...

As for immersion, having clickable cockpits adds nothing, we are already so limited in what we can do in a simulation that making it harder by using a mouse to move a handle or click a button makes it unrealistically harder..

...

 

Currently I use a trackball for interaction with the clickable cockpit (a must in DCS: A-10C, a nice addition in CloD and DCS:P-51D for stuff as lights, startup, bomb bay doors, fuel selectors and so on), but as soon as a >24" touchscreen is to be had for ~500 EUR, I'll get one. And then the immersion factor will come into play too.

[falstaff]

Here's an idea...you pay extra for a detailed, clickable 'full real' cockpit as downloadable content. This way it doesn't swallow too many resources early on, given a tight schedule.

 

Obviously, problems of online advantage and disadvantage would need to be worked out, and these could be very complex (*too* complex?)

 

Even without this it would be nice to have a few options of cockpit complexity, say SImple, Medium and Difficult, for those who like procedural start-up stuff and tinkering.

 

But resources are going to be limited in the time available. I think you either try and match the best currently avialable, or give it a wide berth, and simply code in a framework where it could be added later on (whether you charge for it or not). As with most things, it makes sense to make it scaleable.

Edited December 20, 2012 by falstaff

[Crump]

One thing I always wanted in CloD was the relevant hotkey to be shown if I moused over a dial, button or gauge - that could surely help in some way to transition players to use the keyboard more?

 

 

Management of the aircraft makes all the difference in the world.   Having the control displayed would help new players as well as being realistic.  Rarely in a real cockpit do you  wonder how to a operate a specific control interface but you do have to know when to engage the system and how long to do it.  That is the most common reason to consult the Operating Notes in flight.

 

IMHO, the level of detail required to properly manage the aircraft is 33% of the game. The ability to reproduce combat tactics appropriate to the aircraft is the other 33%.  The last 33% is a dynamic campaign.  Putting it all together by having to properly manage the aircraft systems to achieve the performance required by the appropriate combat tactics in a dynamic environment makes the game.

 

I can live without a clickable cockpit with ease...

What I am afraid of is that they dumb down the general CEM  and overall cockpit functionality of the planes. I dont care if I can select/operate all instruments and levers with my mouse....the main thing for me is that there are the same amount of functioning controls.

Please dont go back to the old Il2 Style and just focus on mixture/pitch/throttle control with some better graphics with full of dead instruments and levers. Every lever/instrument, major and minor, should have a function, clickable or not. If there is a lever for pitot-heating, opening a side-window, various tank controls he has to be operable!

Thats my biggest concern by now

 

Absolutely.  Reducing the level of CEM found in CloD would be a step backwards for WWII Combat sim fans.

[BigC63]

Clickable pit is fun for low work load moments. Once the proverbial snot hits the fan it's just a pain in the *ss. I've got everything mapped to my Warthog and I'm happy with it.

Clickable pit would be great as an option but if it becomes too complex or expensive I can live without it.

[C9pilot]

FSX manages to have clickable cockpits AND key/button mapping for functions too.

Is it super hard to have both?

 

Clickable cockpits can be easier than having to remember key mapping.  They also make planes feel different from each other.  

Mapped keys and joystick buttons can be easier to press and you don't need to learn where the cockpit switches are in different planes.

 

BOTH methods have pros and cons.

 

Though it seems like a waste to have a beautifully rendered CloD cockpit, with levers and knobs that say what they are when you mouse over them, move when you press a key on your keyboard, but you can't click them to make them work.

[Mac_Messer]

Modelling multicrew bombers also eats a lot of resources. Do we pay extra for them aswell?

Here's an idea...you pay extra for a detailed, clickable 'full real' cockpit as downloadable content. This way it doesn't swallow too many resources early on, given a tight schedule.

[RoboticPope]

...

Though it seems like a waste to have a beautifully rendered CloD cockpit, with levers and knobs that say what they are when you mouse over them, move when you press a key on your keyboard, but you can't click them to make them work.

 

Yes, that would be silly.  If the game knows what what you are pointing at in the cockpit, it is the simple part for it to activate that control with a mouse click.

[FlatSpinMan]

Both points of view are perfectly valid, and no doubt the Devs are aware of them. Scalable seems to be the way to go, especially for all the beginners who'll come into the game- we have to consider them. Already there's such a huge learning curve with flight sins.

 

Both points of view are perfectly valid, and no doubt the Devs are aware of them. Scalable seems to be the way to go, especially for all the beginners who'll come into the game- we have to consider them. Already there's such a huge learning curve with flight sims

 

Both points of view are perfectly valid, and no doubt the Devs are aware of them. Scalable seems to be the way to go, especially for all the beginners who'll come into the game- we have to consider them. Already there's such a huge learning curve with flight sims

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Both points of view are perfectly valid, and no doubt the Devs are aware of them.

True..

 

But the good news is the devs appear to be going down the none clickable cockpit path..

 

Which I think is a smart move wrt to CFS

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Currently I use a trackball for interaction with the clickable cockpit (a must in DCS: A-10C, a nice addition in CloD and DCS:P-51D for stuff as lights, startup, bomb bay doors, fuel selectors and so on), but as soon as a >24" touchscreen is to be had for ~500 EUR, I'll get one. And then the immersion factor will come into play too.

Something that has not been brought up yet is the problem when using TIR..

 

When your cockpit view is stable, as in the case of using a HAT key or mouse to adjust your view, it is easier to click on a switch in the cockpit.. Because the cockpit is not moving when you take your hand off the HAT key or mouse

 

But for us TIR users it is harder to do..

 

In that first you have to look at the switch.. Which is not the hard part, but now you have to hold your head pretty darn steady while you move the mouse (or track ball in your case) over to the switch to 'click it'..

 

Sounds easy, but you would be amazed at how hard it can be to hold your head steady.. Even when you have a good sized dead zone dedicated to your TIR.

 

In short, the immersion factor I get from TIR, which is active the whole time I am flying, is much greater than the immersion factor I get from flipping a few switches at start up..

 

Note I said start up, in that as most have noted here, they don't use the clickable cockpit to flip the switches or levers once the S hits the fan in a DF! They use the mapped keys on thier joystick or throttle, where they dont have to look at the joystick or throttle to do so!

 

As was the case in real life, where you would NOT have to look at the switch or lever to flip or slide it!

 

Your muscle memory would enable you to reach out and flip that switch or slide that throttle without looking at it! Thus enabling you to keep your eye on the ball (aka enemy plane)!

 

This is one of the reasons I don't really care for clickable cockpits.. but it is not the only nor the main reason!

 

The main reason for me is I personally think the devs can spend their time and money on more important CFS things!

 

For example note how long it takes to create a 3D cockpit these days, based on what was said wrt the CoD 3D cockpits it can take longer than the external 3D art of the plane!

 

Therefore I think it is wise of the devs to limit the amount of work that goes into making 3D cockpits.. As in why do all that extra work to make the cockpit clickable when most people only make use of it at startup.

Edited December 22, 2012 by ACEOFACES

[AndyJWest]

Your mussel memory would enable you to reach out and flip that switch...

 

I must admit that I've got the memory of a marine bivalve mollusc too... 

 

Seriously though, I've had the same problem with CloD myself - clickpits and TrackIR aren't a very good combination.

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Seriously though, I've had the same problem with CloD myself - clickpits and TrackIR aren't a very good combination.

Agreed 100%

 

And if I had to choose between the two, TIR would stay and clickpits would go!

[AndyJWest]

Yup - me too. I'd be stumped without my TIR, now I've got used to it. 

[msalama]

NO clickable cokpits for me, it is just someones fetish....

 

It certainly is not, although the method of interaction can always be debated. Still, no interactive cockpits means no interactive systems means they always automanage themselves even when they didn't IRL means we just entered the la-la-land of unreal

 

This guy explains it well IMO, way better than I could I think:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1630481&postcount=253

Edited December 22, 2012 by msalama

[56RAF_klem]

I must admit that I've got the memory of a marine bivalve mollusc too... 

 

Seriously though, I've had the same problem with CloD myself - clickpits and TrackIR aren't a very good combination.

The 'Glance at Dashboard' feature in CoD is helpful in overcoming the TIR 'search' problem, I also use it in FSX on some aircraft.

[AndyJWest]

The 'Glance at Dashboard' feature in CoD is helpful in overcoming the TIR 'search' problem, I also use it in FSX on some aircraft.

 

Er, you are saying that to use the mouse rather than the keyboard to work the controls, we need to press a key? Some mistake, surely..

[RoboticPope]

Er, you are saying that to use the mouse rather than the keyboard to work the controls, we need to press a key? Some mistake, surely..

 

Key could be programmed to a button on the mouse or joystick.  

[56RAF_klem]

Key could be programmed to a button on the mouse or joystick.  

Yes, thumb button on Throttle to glance at dash, move right hand to mouse. I offer it as an alternative to trying to hold a view with TrackIR. I have a small TIR Deadzone which enables me to hold a central view easily. I only use ot on the ground as I have a CH Control Manager which acts as my "cockpit switches". I know where the important ones are without looking when I'm flying.

Edited December 22, 2012 by klem

[SKG51_robtek]

It really astonished to what lenghts some people here go to deny even the remote possibility of a clickpit to the people who are able and willing to use one.

 

It is really not a question of either...or, but a extra option, to be realized when time, money and demand are available.

 

It seems that some people here are getting their fun by regulating the options for others.

[Rama]

I have no doubt some (not me, I don't care) are wanting clickable cockpit, but the dev clearly stated it wont be, at least at the first release.

So it's a bit useless to argue about.... at least until "time and money will be available" ? No???

 

If you want to advocate for it, maybe should you realize it would be much more efficient when the choice for the future will be on the table.

[dburne]

I don't think anyone is advocating not adding clickable pits - I can't imagine why anyone would deny that for those that want it, myself I would probably only use it for startup, everything else I would use my HOTAS and maybe a key command here and there. I can take it or leave it,  but as mentioned for at least the release of BoS, they will not have clickable pits. I am sure the more and more request they see for them, at some point in the future they will probably implement them, but they are on a time table for this first release. At least it sounds like, there will be animated movements in the pit.

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Still, no interactive cockpits means no interactive systems means they always automanage themselves even when they didn't IRL means we just entered the la-la-land of unreal

A non-clickpit does not equate to auto managed systems.

.

The 'Glance at Dashboard' feature in CoD is helpful in overcoming the TIR 'search' problem

True.. but using it does upset the immersion factor for me.. Where my view suddenly changes and I am no longer looking where my head and eyes are pointed.. That and it does not change the fact that in real life, you would NOT take your eye off the enemy plane to adjust the throttle or mixture levers of flip a switch.. Your muscle memory would enable you to reach out and flip that switch or slide that slider without having to look at it (within reason of course).

.

It is really not a question of either...or, but a extra option, to be realized when time, money and demand are available.

When aval?

 

Maybe.. but, based on what 777 has said thus far it sounds like they are not interested in doing it even if time and money was aval.. Options cost money! So they have to be smart about which options they put their money into (bang for the buck). Based on that one can only assume that 777 has concluded, like so many of us have, that a clickpit is not worth doing. As in why do all that extra work to provide an option like a clickpit when only some people make use of, and of those they typically only make use of it at startup! And or they have taken a look at the demand and realized it is not worth doing.

Edited December 22, 2012 by ACEOFACES

[falstaff]

ACEOFACES said:

 

Options cost money! So they have to be smart about which options they put their money into (bang for the buck). Based on that one can only assume that 777 has concluded, like so many of us have, that a clickpit is not worth doing. As in why do all that extra work to provide an option like a clickpit when only some people make use of, and of those they typically only make use of it at startup! And or they have taken a look at the demand and realized it is not worth doing.

 

In full agreement with this and most of the rest of what you say about clickpits (yes, seriously, Aces). Hence my 'add the option later' suggestion above.

 

I think click-pits are sometimes used as one of those 'defining' issues, whereby people use them to separate themselves i.e. 'men' from the 'boys'. 'Sim' from 'game'. Personally, I find them a bit silly and geeky...where do you stop? A bag to pee in as you sit in front of the screen...?

 

It is a trade-off...money (man-power)...time-scales, and knowledge base (i.e. research = man-power).

 

I'm with Aces on this. Since it tends to boil down to resources and time available, concentrate on more game-play elements and immersiveness. For some clickpits *do* represent immersion and realism...not for me. For me, that was represented by the first incarnationof the Clod cockpits (lighting, shadows, reflections).

 

Hence my earlier suggestion. Those that want them can pay for them, provided the ability is there to graft them in later on.

 

To me, clickpits do not add much realism or immersion - they add labour on take-off. In-flight is a different matter, and it becomes much more a question of what gear you have and click management - unfair on some, flattering to others, and hard to balance in online gameplay terms?

Edited December 22, 2012 by falstaff

[kendo]

Anyone got some smelling salts...think Aces may need them...

 

Wow! Peace and brotherhood break out on the BOS forum.

 

It must be Christmas or something.

Edited December 22, 2012 by kendo

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Anyone got some smelling salts...think Aces may need them...

Not sure I understa..

 

Oh, wait I think I get it! You think this is the first time someone has come around to my way of thinking!

 

Hardly!

 

Eventually everyone does, thus not big suprise on my end!

 

[6S.Manu]

But for us TIR users it is harder to do..

 

In that first you have to look at the switch.. Which is not the hard part, but now you have to hold your head pretty darn steady while you move the mouse (or track ball in your case) over to the switch to 'click it'..

 

Tagert, AJW, you need to map an advanced command on your hotas that do as follow:

1) when you press the button it will disable TIR (F10? anyway it's customizable)

2) when you release the button it will enable TIR again

 

So you can move the mouse and click with full precision while you're keeping the hotas' button pressed.

This is the way I fly with DCS, it works very well.

Edited December 22, 2012 by 6SManu

[kendo]

Not sure I understa..

 

Oh, wait I think I get it! You think this is the first time someone has come around to my way of thinking!

 

Hardly!

 

Eventually everyone does, thus not big suprise on my end!

 

Thought that maybe the shock of having Falstaff agree with you might have given you a dizzy turn there.

 

Slightly optimistic second part to your post though, I think. (time will tell )

Edited December 22, 2012 by kendo

[56RAF_klem]

.......................

 

Maybe.. but, based on what 777 has said thus far it sounds like they are not interested in doing it even if time and money was aval.. Options cost money! So they have to be smart about which options they put their money into (bang for the buck). Based on that one can only assume that 777 has concluded, like so many of us have, that a clickpit is not worth doing. As in why do all that extra work to provide an option like a clickpit when only some people make use of, and of those they typically only make use of it at startup! And or they have taken a look at the demand and realized it is not worth doing.

 

I think the discussion moved way beyond clickpits for BoS, Jason has already said no. Well not for now anyway.

 

It's become more a discussion of preferences and what value clickpits add if any. If you continue the discussion far enough you also get drawn into the whole "what is a realistic cockpit view?" because arguments have already reached "clickpits aren't practical with TIR", "glance at dash isn't realiistic". Most people think a realistic view represents the physical view when you sit a real cockpit, i.e. from about the top of the instrument panel to the top of the cockpit frame. Then comes the realisation that it is not realistic at all because you can't flip your eyes down to see the instruments without lowering your head, something you can do in a real cockpit. You need TIR or to press a Hat switch or a 'glance at dash' button. So then there's the argument that wide view is more realistic because you can flip your eyes down. But that's not a true scale view. So then you realise you need a second display, below your true scale cockpit view display, permanently showing the dash with a clickpit and a touchscreen. You may even need three displays to show side instruments and controls.

 

I think thats about as close as you'll get to 'realistic' cockpit interaction.

 

Or you could build a cockpit.

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Some may have moved away from clickpit topic.. but not all.

 

As for realistic.. Note I did not say TIR this or glance cockpit that was more or less realistic.. What I did say is using the glance cockpit bursts my immersion bubble..

 

I have no illusions of any of this being real!

 

My point is pretty simple..

 

There are a lot of ques the pilot gets in the real world that we don't get in the sim world (seat of pants feel, physical contact, real 3D world vs 2D sim of 3D, etc) which makes many things harder than they would be in a real plane. Thus I am all for doing 'things' that make our workload equal to that of the real thing as we can.. And having to LOOK at a button or lever to press or move it is harder than it should be.

[ST_Catchov]

I say no to clickpits for a very good reason. 

[NZTyphoon]

I can live without a clickable cockpit with ease...

What I am afraid of is that they dumb down the general CEM  and overall cockpit functionality of the planes. I dont care if I can select/operate all instruments and levers with my mouse....the main thing for me is that there are the same amount of functioning controls.

Please dont go back to the old Il2 Style and just focus on mixture/pitch/throttle control with some better graphics with full of dead instruments and levers. Every lever/instrument, major and minor, should have a function, clickable or not. If there is a lever for pitot-heating, opening a side-window, various tank controls he has to be operable!

Thats my biggest concern by now

 

So how much time and money are you prepared to give to the project to help develop these features? Such things take a whole heap of development time, several layers of texture (20) to achieve, can be very expensive and, even with all the development, there's no way they can be made to look and feel like the real thing, particularly for players who are just starting out with basic equipment. From Developer's Diary pt 1

 

15) Do you plan the level of graphics cockpits like in basic models in CLOD (Spitfire/Bf-109)?

 

No. You will not see this. The reasons are simple. The creation of one such cockpit takes a year, sometimes more. The popularity of the genre has to be phenomenal for such expenses were justified. If we are not careful, the budget ends and with it the end of the project. It is also not too wise to use more PC than necessary and use twenty textures, where it was sufficient to use three. Not being smart with resources can result in serious performance problems. We hope to find a balanced solution. Good performance with nice looking cockpits.

 

To suggest that not having such features is a backwards step is being premature because the game is still in its very early stages of development.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I say no to clickpits for a very good reason. 

 I'm sure you do!

 

 

Funny thing was that we had the same discussion before CoD was released and Oleg (The developer at the time) categorically stated that clickable cockpits were not going to be in CoD!  Same for/against arguments. When the CoD was released it had clickable cockpits. Most people got over it, but there was never an explanation how or when they were added to the title.

 

I'll go with my posts at that time. I can live without clickable cockpits, in my opinion there are more important things for the developers to focus on. If clickpits are  implemented I won't be upset!

 

Cheers!

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 We will never get realistic views to any flight sim unless you have a 360' dome and build the cockpit of your plane of choice :D Then you could have all the movable/clickable/rotaries/whatever you want and need. So frankly, if we do not get clickable cockpits in BoS, no big deal. But only as long as everything else works as it should ie. cockpit itself works as it should aka no dummy dials etc. And if you choose a function then the appropriate switch/knob/rotary/etc. moves in the cockpit. Sure you do not see them all while looking forward, but adds to the realism. And another..please remove the sound of clicks and whatnot. You can not hear them while that big engine is roaring in front of you, we are not flying lawnmowers with wings but Beasts of War :D

 

Happy holidays everybody!

[msalama]

A non-clickpit does not equate to auto managed systems.

 

Never claimed so since I was talking about interactive cockpits in general, and even said that the method of interaction can always be debated.

[Bearcat]

It really astonished to what lenghts some people here go to deny even the remote possibility of a clickpit to the people who are able and willing to use one.

 

It is really not a question of either...or, but a extra option, to be realized when time, money and demand are available.

 

It seems that some people here are getting their fun by regulating the options for others.

Why are you astonished? The developer has denied even the remote possibility of a clickpit to the people who are able and willing to use one ... more than once  and he gave sound reasoning as to why..  so why are you astonished at all. I am more astonished that this still keeps popping up over and over at this stage in the juncture.

 

I would rather they concetrate on adding features and functions and not bother with the work it would take to add clickable pits to each plane. If the CEM is a few notches above IL2 I will be happy.. it doesnt have to go full blown CoD. WoP looks great.. but the CEM is even less functional than IL2.. I hope they do not go that route.. Personally I think that continually usig CoD as the benchmark is a bit unrealistic. If it can be a notch or two below CoD and a notch or two above IL2 ... and work flawlessly out of the box on my rig with a FMB, a QMB a dedicated server and MDS style coops as an option I will be delighted.

[Freycinet]

For me, a big part of flight simulation is getting to know the cockpits of the planes I "fly". I enjoy learning where to look for and use the fuel cock lever and I think it brings me a bit closer to the original experience than remembering key command ctrl-f or which slider to use on a HOTAS.

 

Of course I have combat-relevant commands on my joystick (rad, guns, mixture, etc) but for most other commands I really prefer to remember their proper place in a proper cockpit rather than a random keyboard combo. And I can assure you that WWII pilots had to consult their cockpit constantly. Usability was almost non-existent in most planes back then and there are many tales of pilots reacting too slowly to attacks because they were struggling with flight management issues.

 

As mentioned the next gen touch screens are also an important factor in this.

 

 

Clickable cockpits are crap.

 

Oh, well, forget what I said then... I guess I cannot compete with that level of reasoning...  

Edited December 23, 2012 by Freycinet

[Logan]

 

1) when you press the button it will disable TIR (F10? anyway it's customizable)

2) when you release the button it will enable TIR again

 

So you can move the mouse and click with full precision while you're keeping the hotas' button pressed.

I have the TIR/trackball affliction too. Resulting in no clickpits pits. I never thought to try that, in games that have that option. I read BOS wouldn't have them and I thought right away the pits will be like ROF,a few steps up from IL2 but not as much as Clod. The ROF pits do look good.

[Loopback]

Hi All

 

Interesting comments in the for/against camp but you could always build your own if you have an ipad or android tablet using TouchBuddy.

 

http://www.touch-buddy.com/forums/faq/18-master-faq.html

 

I use it for various sims and am planning on building one for CLOD and ROF using an android tablet.

 

It takes a bit of time to build something (not complicated though) but it'll be quicker than waiting for it to be developed. Kind of a half way house so to speak.

 

Loopback

Edited December 23, 2012 by Loopback

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Clickable cockpits are crap.

 

 

:D 

A well reasoned and thoughtful post...cant argue with that Frey!

[III/JG11_Tiger]

I dont think it is worth mapping all switches etc. but some important ones may appease those that like them, personally I like to map them to my HOTAS so the effort for me is wasted, but thats just my opinion, it is hard too please everyone though.

Edited December 24, 2012 by III/JG11_Tiger