Level of cockpit interaction!

[SKG51_robtek]

What one seems to regard as "unnessecary feature" shure can be a "essential feature" for the next one.

 

If its there, the first one looses nothing, if not, the second one does loose a "essential feature".

[SlipBall]

Jason seems to be a sharp guy I'm sure he will do the best he can on this.

[TX-EcoDragon]

DCS: Black Shark was the first with a clickable cockpit, in 2008. I believe all LOMAC offered was a floating popup of whatever was under the mouse cursor, like CFS3 had (that Il-2 competitor so few remember now).

 

There were many simulators released before 2008, but I was unaware that none of them were actually simulators. Also, I would argue that none of the sims I've bought in the last 10 years had anywhere NEAR the immersion I got from the sims I flew in the 90s. The Jane's titles like Longbow and F-15E didn't have clickable pits, DID's EF2000 and TAW didn't.

 

But hey, if your entire definition of whether it's a sim hinges on a single nice but ultimately unnecessary feature, don't buy it. However, do not presume to claim you speak for all "sim addicts" who may not find ANY immersion in using a mouse to move a magical floating cursor around a cockpit to make a switch move as if by telekinesis.

Umm...The Jane's sims DID have click pits, as did X-Plane and the MSFS line. Falcon did too I believe. 

 

I for one don't aim to speak for all. Including a feature that is elective is not speaking for all, however excluding it, IS. 

Edited December 13, 2012 by TX-EcoDragon

[Sokol1]

Animations of moving knobs, gauges etc? That we have in ROF...

Good to know - no RoF experience.

 

I trade with pleasure the ability to click with mouse in (useless, since if you hit "I" first the engine start) magneto switch of CloD Spitfire for ANIMATED trim knobs, brake lever in same plane...

 

Sokol1

[4./JG53_Wotan]

Mouse clicking is a useless feature - it is nice to be able to transfer some of the "not often used" commands to the mouse click but overall it is not a neccessity. A fully functioning cockpit is pretty important to a lot of folks but the devs need to be concious of "feature creap". They should spend most of their time getting the aircraft to function and fly as they should before anything else. FMS and some of the phsyics in CloD (and the old Il-2) were just wrong. The same can be said for some stuff in RoF.

 

Overall I think RoF has a better feel then CloD. Air combat is more believable even if its mostly "fight to death" engagements on most servers. Visibility is also much better in RoF then CloD overall.

[Ploughman]

Jason seems to be a sharp guy I'm sure he will do the best he can on this.

 

 

Quite.  If he perceives there is a demand for clickable pits he will respond with clickable pits as this is something he can sell to his customers.  I like clickable pits and realistic simulations of aircraft systems and all that and if they were offered on an aircraft by aircraft basis I would pay for these features in aircraft I like.  If not, well tough titty for me.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

If he perceives there is a demand for clickable pits he will respond with clickable pits as this is something he can sell to his customers.

 

 

Yeah he can charge per mouse click. Every time someone uses their mouse to click a button he gets a dollar

[Ploughman]

Yeah he can charge per mouse click. Every time someone uses their mouse to click a button he gets a dollar

 

At that price, I'm not buying.  Remember, Jason's a sharp guy, and so am I.

[Freycinet]

For me, a big part of flight simulation is getting to know the cockpits of the planes I "fly". I enjoy learning where to look for and use the fuel cock lever and I think it brings me a bit closer to the original experience than remembering key command ctrl-f or which slider to use on a HOTAS.

 

Of course I have combat-relevant commands on my joystick (rad, guns, mixture, etc) but for most other commands I really prefer to remember their proper place in a proper cockpit rather than a random keyboard combo. And I can assure you that WWII pilots had to consult their cockpit constantly. Usability was almost non-existent in most planes back then and there are many tales of pilots reacting too slowly to attacks because they were struggling with flight management issues.

 

As mentioned the next gen touch screens are also an important factor in this.

[machoo]

Clickable cockpits are crap.

[Bearcat]

Quite.  If he perceives there is a demand for clickable pits he will respond with clickable pits as this is something he can sell to his customers.  I like clickable pits and realistic simulations of aircraft systems and all that and if they were offered on an aircraft by aircraft basis I would pay for these features in aircraft I like.  If not, well tough titty for me.

Yes but this is a silly discussion because he already said it would not have it ..

[ATAG_Old_Canuck]

Yes but this is a silly discussion because he already said it would not have it ..

 

I just came into this thread because I saw Bearcat in here but hey -- if an old fart like me can learn a few button commands so can you young guns.

[Bearcat]

LOL.. I understand the cockpit thing though.. and even though we don't have clickasble pits in IL2 I still find it immersive to know where everything is.. I hope this sim has working gauges.. I hope that everything that has a function can be programmed.

[SKG51_robtek]

Following this thread it seems that it  must be more satisfying to enforce limitations on people instead of promoting possibilities. ;D

 

Especially because i haven't seen any reasoning to deny that option.

Edited December 14, 2012 by robtek

[Freycinet]

Well, obviously it is more work to have clickable cockpits, that would be a reason for not having them.

[ST_Catchov]

You clickable guys obviously haven't seen the devastatingly sad news!

 

 

13) Can we expect the clickable cockpits?

 

No. We create a simulation of air combat (this includes attacking ground targets). The pilot will only receive critical systems, propeller pitch, boost, altitude control, different mechanization, weapons and more. Procedural training device it will not be, it will be a game simulator. We would like to return to the original idea of ???

[=IRFC=Huetz]

And the original IL2 was great for just that.

 

In real life I reach over and touch/move what is required for the situation and glance at it, not move my head down, change hand on stick, reach over to do whatever I need, switch hand back, move head back up. It would be tedious (and potentially dangerous) in real life and it damn sure is tedious in a game, let a lone a combat simulator.

I understand their unavoidable need for study sims like some of the DCS content, but really not in a WWII plane.

So in the end it really comes down to replicating the steps that are actually needed in real life to active/manipulate a given system and clickable cockpits are counter-productive at best. There's a very thin line of what actually creates immersion (as in getting as close to the real thing as you can get with smoke and mirrors), IL2 had a bit too little in that respect, if anything CloD overdid it, RoF actually does a great job at this.

 

Also don't forget that you're not seeing a lot of the stuff relevant for a WWII fighter in RoF because it simply is not a simulation of WWII fighters. Everything critical/usuable for a WWI fighter is there however, I expect nothing less for BoS.

[=CHN=Crash]

We knew this before it. Just roll back to 1946, or forgotten battles maybe.

[SKG51_robtek]

Some people seem to have a misunderstanding,

 

The clickpit isn't for immersion, it is for not having to remember hundreds of key-combinations.(Easily reached in a multiengined plane.)

 

Fighter jocks are soo limited :D :D :D

 

And yes, it is known that it isn't planned, at the moment!

[=IRFC=Huetz]

You may be right, us fighter jocks are really limited, in fact if it doesn't die in a fire it's not worth the development effort

 

Seriously though, I see what you're getting at, then again with recen peripherals the need for clickable cockpits is really going down imo. I know it's time consuming to learn the keystrokes and whatnot but once you have the controls memorized it's really a non-issue.

 

I've also seen the problem of looking down and checking what setting a certain lever is currently at come up in here. RoF has a simple HUD available by toggle in all difficulty setting that provides something similar to the 3 bars in CloD, so there's probably going to be something along these lines in BoS as well.

 

After all 777 has been very concerned about streamlining the UI as much as possible over the years so that should really be a non-issue.

[SlipBall]

You clickable guys obviously haven't seen the devastatingly sad news!

 

 

13) Can we expect the clickable cockpits?

 

No. We create a simulation of air combat (this includes attacking ground targets). The pilot will only receive critical systems, propeller pitch, boost, altitude control, different mechanization, weapons and more. Procedural training device it will not be, it will be a game simulator. We would like to return to the original idea of ???

[Jaws2002]

As a sim this new thing is going to suck. It will most likely be a cool game for quck fun, but a 2014 sim it won't be.

The whole project looks like a quick way for 1c to make some money. In the time and money alocated for the thing, you can't get too much done. And after the clod fiasco I don't blame them for throwing the towell.

Few new planes, a dynamic campaign, throwed together into the rof engine, is about all you could get for the time, and probabily money available for the game.

 

Il-2 as we know it is dead.

[DD_Crash]

Why not wait until the beta is out and see what the feedback is? Dont buy it if it doesn't meet your requirements.

[Krupi]

As a sim this new thing is going to suck. It will most likely be a cool game for quck fun, but a 2014 sim it won't be. The whole project looks like a quick way for 1c to make some money. In the time and money alocated for the thing, you can't get too much done. And after the clod fiasco I don't blame them for throwing the towell. Few new planes, a dynamic campaign, throwed together into the rof engine, is about all you could get for the time, and probabily money available for the game. Il-2 as we know it is dead.

 

I hope they can prove you wrong but at the moment I think you are right

[4pg_inferno]

As I said in another thread.

clickable cockpit is a curse of flight sim.

Almost all the development of the sim with clickable cockpit has been cutted. FSX, CLOD, F-15, F/A-18. Faclon 4....

ED is a quite different. It always has some special customers who are care about the procedure simulate to support their

development.

[=CHN=Crash]

Almost all of the none clickpit sims will die, and much more than clickpit one.

[4pg_inferno]

Almost all of the none clickpit sims will die, and much more than clickpit one.

Can you prove that? :D

 

 Let us see what will be happen in future. 

[Krupi]

As I said in another thread.

clickable cockpit is a curse of flight sim.

Almost all the development of the sim with clickable cockpit has been cutted. FSX, CLOD, F-15, F/A-18. Faclon 4....

ED is a quite different. It always has some special customers who are care about the procedure simulate to support their

development.

 

I have already cleared up this clickable cockpit thing, I don't care for clickable cockpits I just wanted a cockpit that I can interact with and look good COD's looked amazing and today what we were told is not to expect anything like CODs that really pissed on my parade. 

 

After what I have read I can only compare BOS to war thunder... and war thunder is il2 1946 with slighter better graphics.

[4pg_inferno]

I have already cleared up this clickable cockpit thing, I don't care for clickable cockpits I just wanted a cockpit that I can interact with and look good COD's looked amazing and today what we were told is not to expect anything like CODs that really pissed on my parade. 

 

After what I have read I can only compare BOS to war thunder... and war thunder is il2 1946 with slighter better graphics.

No one knows what BOS will looks like now. even the developers. Krupt.

Why do you not just wait before you draw you conclusion?

[=CHN=Crash]

Can you prove that? :D

 

 Let us see what will be happen in future. 

The latest example is IL-2 1946. And all of Jane's, novalogic products with out clickpit are one of them.

[4pg_inferno]

The latest example is IL-2 1946. And all of Jane's, novalogic products with out clickpit are one of them.

IL-2 just retired.. not be canceled.... Jane's AFT, navy fight , long bow apache was big sell at that time....

now we have two non clickable cockpit project are still alive at least..

How about clickable cockpit project?   ... OK.. I know you will say ED...

But the Best sell product of ED may be that FC series...

Let us stop this discussion and leave the developer to make decision. 

There always someone like complicated procedure. :D

Like Clicking the tank-switch and handpump 4 times before takeoff.

They call that real simulate

Edited December 14, 2012 by realhulu

[=CHN=Crash]

IL-2 just retired.. not be canceled.... Jane's AFT, navy fight , long bow apache was big sell at that time....

now we have two non clickable cockpit project are still alive at least..

How about clickable cockpit project?   ... OK.. I know you will say ED...

But the Best sell product of ED may be that FC series...

Let us stop this discussion and leave the developer to make decision. 

There always someone like complicated procedure. :D

Like Clicking the tank-switch and handpump 4 times before takeoff.

They call that real simulate

So never say some sims like falcon 4 were died because it has clickpit. The clickpit shall be a standard of high detailed sims. Without it, you just flying in a game mode.

[4pg_inferno]

It is clear the clickable cockpit make that "simluator game" too complicated and prevent a lot customers from buying it.

Clickable cockpit may be not only reason for the failure of F4, but it is one of it for sure.

Standard? Who makes this standard? The only standard is market!

If you cannot sell more copies of the game, you fail....

 

 

The developers have already answered your question

 

No. We create a simulation of air combat (this includes attacking ground targets). The pilot will only receive critical systems, propeller pitch, boost, altitude control, different mechanization, weapons and more. Procedural training device it will not be, it will be a game simulator. We would like to return to the original idea of ???

Edited December 14, 2012 by realhulu

[Krupi]

in other words we will never see what Oleg and Ilya wanted us to see instead we will get il2: 1946 v1.2 not il2: 2... 

Edited December 14, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[=CHN=Crash]

It is clear the clickable cockpit make that "simluator game" too complicated and prevent a lot customers from buying it.

Clickable cockpit may be not only reason for the failure of F4, but it is one of it for sure.

Standard? Who makes this standard? The only standard is market!

If you cannot sell more copies of the game, you fail....

 

 

The developers have already answered your question

 

 

 

Please pay attention. it is a game simulator not a  Procedural training device.

You can just tap F10 in CloD to disable the clickpit. But you just want this function not available to everyone, even who loves it.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

in other words we will never see what Oleg and Ilya wanted us to see instead we will get il2: 1946 v1.2 not il2: 2... 

Regardless of whatever you think they intended CloD is what they gave you. It was a flop and lost money and was abandoned by its creators. You should not be surprised that no one else is willing to follow that model.

 

As for clickpits grabbing a lever or nob with a mouse cursor is no more "simultation" then pushing a keyboard / hotas button.

 

The only real benefit of mouse clicking is you could leave "not often used" controls to the mouse. Big deal...

 

 

You can just tap F10 in CloD to disable the clickpit. But you just want this function not available to everyone, even who loves it.

 

 

It has nothing to do with not wanting others to useit  - its not worth the developers resources to waste time with unnevessary stuff like mouse clicking. Feature creap played havoc with CloD. This is not something that needs to be repeated.

Edited December 14, 2012 by 4./JG53_Wotan

[=CHN=Crash]

Regardless of whatever you think they intended CloD is what they gave you. It was a flop and lost money and was abandoned by its creators. You should not be surprised that no one else is willing to follow that model.

 

As for clickpits grabbing a lever or nob with a mouse cursor is no more "simultation" then pushing a keyboard / hotas button.

 

The only real benefit of mouse clicking is you could leave "not often used" controls to the mouse. Big deal...

 

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with not wanting others to useit  - its not worth the developers resources to waste time with unnevessary stuff like mouse clicking. Feature creap played havoc with CloD. This is not something that needs to be repeated.

Only if 1c team and 777 will never make a clickpit sim in the future, otherwise they can't escape that. If some one can tell how many days did this function waste in CloD or Falcon4? I don't think things would change if those time were added to devs.

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Personally this is a turn off, but i hope that if they don't have clickable cockpits then at least we can still operate everything in the cockpit.

 

Anything less will be a huge step back.

 

Please Jason make sure this feature is kept!

IMHO clickable cockpits are over rated..

 

Way over rated to be frank!

 

Especially wrt WWI and WWII sims!

 

As for doing what needs to be done, with todays joysticks, throttles and rudders there is more than enough sliders and buttons to do what needs to be done!

 

As for immersion, having clickable cockpits adds nothing, we are already so limited in what we can do in a simulation that making it harder by using a mouse to move a handle or click a button makes it unrealistically harder..

 

In summary, all that effort to please a few of the users that like to sit on the runway and look around the cockpit and set things is just not worth the effort..

 

Maybe in the near future when HMDs and virtual gloves are the norm, than and only than would I be interested in seeing clickable cockpits implemented

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I thought you were a big fan of DCS and the P51 Ace? Are you saying its ok in DCS, but not in BoS?

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

I thought you were a big fan of DCS and the P51 Ace?

Love DCS.. (P51 and BlackShark)

 

But not for the clickpit!

 

I love the detailed startup sequence.. but that has nothing to do with and is seperate from clickpit

Are you saying its ok in DCS, but not in BoS?

No

 

What I am saying is IMHO clickable cockpits are over rated..

 

Way over rated to be frank!

 

Especially wrt WWI and WWII sims!

 

As for doing what needs to be done, with todays joysticks, throttles and rudders there is more than enough sliders and buttons to do what needs to be done!

 

As for immersion, having clickable cockpits adds nothing, we are already so limited in what we can do in a simulation that making it harder by using a mouse to move a handle or click a button makes it unrealistically harder..

 

In summary, all that effort to please a few of the users that like to sit on the runway and look around the cockpit and set things is just not worth the effort..

 

Maybe in the near future when HMDs and virtual gloves are the norm, than and only than would I be interested in seeing clickable cockpits implemented

Edited December 14, 2012 by ACEOFACES