Level of cockpit interaction!

[=RvE=Windmills]

When a long time after release the devs decide they have removed all the bugs and added all essential content, then I'd be happy to see them work on something like clickable cockpits. Imo to work on them from day 1 is just detracting resources from areas that are much more important to the overall quality of the game.

[56RAF_klem]

Splash out on a CH Control Manager. You know you want to.

 

I find I don't use cockpit clicks, pressing a button is much more intuitive, but I do expect the cockpit animation to work.

[SlipBall]

If time and budgets are tight, then we will take what they can offer. Hopefully we will be able to map keys to a good many functions in the pit, if so then it earns a simulator badge. If not so, then I hope that it is a very good game that offers more challenges then fur-balls, and I think Jason said that would be true, with a very good career mode...hope-ing

[gibbage]

Real simmers dont fly with a mouse.  Just sayin  

[SlipBall]

Real simmers dont fly with a mouse.  Just sayin

Why do you mention the mouse, that's not what's being disused here?

[gibbage]

Why do you mention the mouse, that's not what's being disused here?

 

I thought "clickable" (via mouse) cockpits was discussed here?  Did I get the wrong thread?  My comment was meant to mean that "hard core" simmers have there system set up in such a way that they dont need to take there hand off the control's to use a mouse.  If your fooling around with your mouse, your not flying or aware of your surroundings   One of the things instructors teach real pilots is to keep there head out of the dash (quick glances are OK, but don't spend too much time in the dash).  I think the same applies in combat sims.  If you have to look down, and use a mouse to arm bombs, your spending WAY WAY too much time doing that then hitting 1 key.  

Edited December 12, 2012 by gibbage

[FlatSpinMan]

To sum up, some people want to bramble to click switches with their mouse, others want the same functionality but using buttons and keys. All want command inputs to be visually represented. The developers, having read this and having their own thoughts, will do something but we don't know what.

 

Good discussion! Thanks team! Now shall we move along? Or better yet, check back in a year when this sim has actually taken shape?

[Ploughman]

I always liked the clickable pits in CloD.  If anything they weren't clickable enough for me.  I also bound my controls to my HOTAS so that I could keep my head out of the pit if I was fighting, it's hardly either or, one can have one's cake and eat it too.  You might say buy A2A products if I want clickable pits and a systems simulator where I might really learn the meat and two veg of a particular air craft but CloD was bringing these two things together.  Flying a Spitfire or a 109 really felt like flying them, checking the dash and clicking on the ancillary systems, I really enjoyed that aspect of CloD and will continue to do so.

 

Not having clickable pits in BoS isn't going to stop me investing in it, but it is less, not more.  Having said that it seems, reading Jason's posts, that they've a lot of work to do getting BoS together in the timescale and they just aren't going to prioritise clickable pits in this iteration which is  something I'm entirely comfortable with.  

 

777 and 1C need BoS to be a success commercially and they need efficiently create a product that works and meets the expectations of customers in 2014 or the genre will be the poorer for their failure.  That does mean producing a product that we want, with a business model and stream of products that'll keep us investing in their output, ultimately I hope this'll include something analogous to clickable pits.  

 

At the end of the day, CloD still exists on my hard drive and will do for the foreseeable future.  If BoS doesn't offer me the a qualitatively similar or better experience to CloD, I'll carry on simming with CloD and wait until they come up with something that does.

[Hunty]

Cant believe how worked up people can get over a clickable cockpit.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Hunty

[itsmecamille]

I've got nothing against clickable cockpits, but like many others in the end everything I really need ends up mapped on my HOTA. Sure, in CloD I did find it nice to do the startup using clickable elements, but it remains a point of detail and I'd rather have other things given more priority. In a way, its really summarises some of the key things which went wrong with CloD: we have secondary features done before the basics even worked, a cherry but an unbaked cake under it. I'd rather start with a good cake base *stomach rumbles*

[Trident_109]

I thought "clickable" (via mouse) cockpits was discussed here?  Did I get the wrong thread?  My comment was meant to mean that "hard core" simmers have there system set up in such a way that they dont need to take there hand off the control's to use a mouse.  If your fooling around with your mouse, your not flying or aware of your surroundings   One of the things instructors teach real pilots is to keep there head out of the dash (quick glances are OK, but don't spend too much time in the dash).  I think the same applies in combat sims.  If you have to look down, and use a mouse to arm bombs, your spending WAY WAY too much time doing that then hitting 1 key.  

Is it a truer simulation experience to click a button on a HOTAS to change prop pitch in a 109 or to simulate with a mouse action to reach onto the dash and toggle the prop pitch lever? It's only a substitute, I know, but IMO it's more accurate to use mouse control to attempt to do something real 109 pilots did than to click a HOTAS button.

 

For clarification I would map my HOTAS rather than using clickable cockpits, but I can see clickable cockpits being more realistic than a HOTAS set up...... or at least more immersive.

[=CHN=Crash]

All switch and guage is realistc functional but cannot touched by the mouse is quite a pity situation. You have to remeber all of the keymap.

[Bearcat]

each to there own opinion, i prefer to map everything to my hotas, which is my 'cockpit'

 

only time i ever use the clickable cockpit in CLOD is to turn the fuel on at startup.

Ding ding ding!! Clickable cockpits.. MeH.. As long as the feature is assignable.. that is far more important IMO. Frankly I don't get how someone can tie in immersion with using a mouse to click an image on thier screen as opposed to having a button that they can assign to something real and tangible. But hey WTH do I know.. and opinions are like spincters ... Everybody has one..

[SYN_Mike77]

roF does not have clickable cokpits but when you push the throttle forward the throttle on the screen moves, same with mixture and radiator controls.  When you blip the engine the engine blip button on the screen moves.  etc, etc.  I am sure BoS will have at least this feature

[=CHN=Crash]

Then we will expect the functiin from battery switch to QNH knob, carb heater, etc. No matter with mouse control or not.

[Trident_109]

Ding ding ding!! Clickable cockpits.. MeH.. As long as the feature is assignable.. that is far more important IMO. Frankly I don't get how someone can tie in immersion with using a mouse to click an image on thier screen as opposed to having a button that they can assign to something real and tangible. But hey WTH do I know.. and opinions are like spincters ... Everybody has one..

Short of having a real cockpit in your den, clickable cockpits are the only way to simulate what a combat pilot did in real life. In 1942 flaps weren't actuated by buttons on a conveniently manufactured HOTAS. It was a lever next to your seat. Trim was on a wheel along the fuselage. In a 109 the prop pitch was a lever on the dash.

 

Clearly it's an inferior solution than having a cockpit at home, but the need to physically actuate a lever or wheel with mouse and clickable cockpits is far more realistic than blipping a switch on a HOTAS.

 

It's not my cup of tea and would rather assign buttons to a HOTAS, but i can see the desire for clickable cockpits. I think for some it does add to the realism.

[exhausted]

I don't think this feature is essential, and it is probably a waste of resources. Il-2 Cliffs of Dover might have gotten finished if it wasn't for side projects like this... and the Su-26, and Tiger Moth.

[=CHN=Crash]

Maybe all essential functions can be found in il21946 and its mod packs, why should we develop the BOS again?

[ST_ami7b5]

roF does not have clickable cokpits but when you push the throttle forward the throttle on the screen moves, same with mixture and radiator controls.  When you blip the engine the engine blip button on the screen moves.  etc, etc.  I am sure BoS will have at least this feature

 

+1

[=CHN=Crash]

Short of having a real cockpit in your den, clickable cockpits are the only way to simulate what a combat pilot did in real life. In 1942 flaps weren't actuated by buttons on a conveniently manufactured HOTAS. It was a lever next to your seat. Trim was on a wheel along the fuselage. In a 109 the prop pitch was a lever on the dash.

 

Clearly it's an inferior solution than having a cockpit at home, but the need to physically actuate a lever or wheel with mouse and clickable cockpits is far more realistic than blipping a switch on a HOTAS.

 

It's not my cup of tea and would rather assign buttons to a HOTAS, but i can see the desire for clickable cockpits. I think for some it does add to the realism.

+1

[Guest deleted@1562]

I would really like to have clickable cockpits. In DCS: P-51 I use the clickable cockpit mainly for starting the aircraft and setting lights and so on, seldomly in flight. But I do understand Jason's point of view.

[Guest deleted@1562]

Ding ding ding!! Clickable cockpits.. MeH.. As long as the feature is assignable.. that is far more important IMO. Frankly I don't get how someone can tie in immersion with using a mouse to click an image on thier screen as opposed to having a button that they can assign to something real and tangible. But hey WTH do I know.. and opinions are like spincters ... Everybody has one..

 

With the advent of Windows 8 touchscreens will become more common and bigger screens than 23" will be available. I know I'll get one, when they have reached 27". Then there will be no mouse involved anymore and touching the button on the screen with a finger will enhance the immersion factor (for me at least).

Edited December 13, 2012 by tintifaxl

[SlipBall]

I thought "clickable" (via mouse) cockpits was discussed here?  Did I get the wrong thread?  My comment was meant to mean that "hard core" simmers have there system set up in such a way that they dont need to take there hand off the control's to use a mouse.  If your fooling around with your mouse, your not flying or aware of your surroundings   One of the things instructors teach real pilots is to keep there head out of the dash (quick glances are OK, but don't spend too much time in the dash).  I think the same applies in combat sims.  If you have to look down, and use a mouse to arm bombs, your spending WAY WAY too much time doing that then hitting 1 key.  

OK I know some people are mentioning mouse clicking, but the O P's broader question is of pilot interaction...and you are of course correct and I failed to read your entire post before reacting, no need of the mouse here     

Edited December 13, 2012 by SlipBall

[ST_ami7b5]

AFAIK many WWII pilots had to learn to operate the 'levers' by touch (with their eyes closed).

I have Logitech G940 (pedals for rudder, throttle for throttle) + Saitek throttle quadrant (three levers - radiator, mixture, prop pitch).

I can adjust any of them without looking, which is in my opinion much closer to the real thing than fiddling with a mouse during the f[l]ight.

 

Just my opinion...

Edited December 13, 2012 by IvanBB

[SKG51_robtek]

I wonder how all the people who are argumenting against the extra option "clickable cockpit" will manage the required controls of a wwii flightsim.

This is not wwi wher all there is to manage is are fuel cock, magnetos, cooling, mixture, blip and 2 kinds of throttle.

This should also not be arcade, where the controls are simplified to wwi level.

In a wwii aircraft you also have to switch tanks, set the altimeter, arm the bombs, select the bombs, set the gyro, set the course indicator, switch carb heating, and so on and so on...

That many commands are too much for a hotas and a simple keyboard and it is really hard to remember in the heat of a battle how to feather the prop on a damaged engine, release

the fire extinguisher and close the cooling flaps on the damaged engine only.

It seems all in favour of a non clickable cockpit are devoted fighter pilots who, of course, are satisfied with the limited possibilities of hotas and keyboard.

Edited December 13, 2012 by robtek

[Phat]

Clickable cockpits sounds nice in theory, just like in FSX... but excuse me while I go puke... It was too fiddly for me and I'd rather use my HOTAS, and other external controllers & touch screens than trying to fly, watch for enemy, dogfight and click the cockpit... sorry it just doesnt make sense... especially in a dogfight simulator. FSX barely got away with making it usable and DCS series... well..

If you like it, more power to you, but I will be happy using my X52 Pro's numerous programmable features with a G13 gaming keypad and iPad touch screen.

Far better for immersion and less distracting.

[SKG51_robtek]

Clickable cockpits sounds nice in theory, just like in FSX... but excuse me while I go puke... It was too fiddly for me and I'd rather use my HOTAS, and other external controllers & touch screens than trying to fly, watch for enemy, dogfight and click the cockpit... sorry it just doesnt make sense... especially in a dogfight simulator. FSX barely got away with making it usable and DCS series... well..

 

If you like it, more power to you, but I will be happy using my X52 Pro's numerous programmable features with a G13 gaming keypad and iPad touch screen.

Far better for immersion and less distracting.

There you are, that shouldn't be a "dogfight simulator"!!!!

 

It should be a wwii combat flight simulator!!!!

 

Remember, Fighter pilots make daring stories, bomber pilots make history. :D

[Phat]

That many commands are too much for a hotas and a simple keyboard and it is really hard to remember in the heat of a battle how to feather the prop on a damaged engine, release

the fire extinguisher and close the cooling flaps on the damaged engine only.

It seems all in favour of a non clickable cockpit are devoted fighter pilots who, of course, are satisfied with the limited possibilities of hotas and keyboard.

 

 

Limited?? are you kidding??? 

My X52 Pro alone has...

 23 buttons, three 8-way hat switches and 7 control axes, the X52 gives you 47 basic commands plus the control axes. But when you include the programming options provided by powerful Saitek Smart Technology programming software, which allows you to make use of the 3 position mode switch and Pinkie shift switch, the total number of programmable commands rises to 282!

 

With all those commands, things could get confusing so you can use the Multi-Function Display (MFD) screen to check programmed command names.

Then there is the G13..

With three game modes, 25 programmable keys, and a programmable analog stick, the G13 gameboard offers up to 87 ways for you to control your game. Plus 5 instant profiles to switch between.

 

Personally I used all 3 X52Pro and G13 and G19 LCD screens too, to pull devicelink data in 1946 along with my touch screen iPad (touchbuddy w/ Air Display) which gave me huge immersion and a situational awareness advantage.  I also used 3 modes on the stick and G13, Ground operations including take off & landing, Dogfighting and a bomber profile.  And I had heaps of keys left and printed key maps with startup/takeoff and landing procedures to remind me. Eventually it became second nature like it would in a normal cockpit.

 

If your not buying the right kit to get the immersion factor then I dont think you can legitimately complain about clickable cockpits, because you cant be taken too seriously if you not prepared to invest in the right gear to complete the enjoyment of "flight combat" simulation. 

Edited December 13, 2012 by Phat

[=CHN=Crash]

Limited?? are you kidding??? 

My X52 Pro alone has...

 23 buttons, three 8-way hat switches and 7 control axes, the X52 gives you 47 basic commands plus the control axes. But when you include the programming options provided by powerful Saitek Smart Technology programming software, which allows you to make use of the 3 position mode switch and Pinkie shift switch, the total number of programmable commands rises to 282!

 

With all those commands, things could get confusing so you can use the Multi-Function Display (MFD) screen to check programmed command names.

Then there is the G13..

With three game modes, 25 programmable keys, and a programmable analog stick, the G13 gameboard offers up to 87 ways for you to control your game. Plus 5 instant profiles to switch between.

 

Personally I used all 3 X52Pro and G13 and G19 LCD screens too, to pull devicelink data in 1946 along with my touch screen iPad (touchbuddy w/ Air Display) which gave me huge immersion and a situational awareness advantage.  I also used 3 modes on the stick and G13, Ground operations including take off & landing, Dogfighting and a bomber profile.  And I had heaps of keys left and printed key maps with startup/takeoff and landing procedures to remind me. Eventually it became second nature like it would in a normal cockpit.

 

If your not buying the right kit to get the immersion factor then I dont think you can legitimately complain about clickable cockpits, because you cant be taken too seriously if you not prepared to invest in the right gear to complete the enjoyment of "flight combat" simulation. 

Unfortunately, your 282 commands of the X52pro is insufficient for a detailed sim like DCS P-51D. It has 378 keyboard commands.

http://bbs1.dof.so:6174/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=44167

Edited December 13, 2012 by billeinstein

[Phat]

Yes but 282(X52pro)+87(G13)+36(G19) = 405 between X52, G13 and G19, not including a virtually unlimited number of options for the touch screen and traditional keyboard commands.

[=CHN=Crash]

Then try to remember them. I prefer just find the switch I need in the cockpit and click it. (The Ka-50 has 510 and A-10C has 835. That's just for a single aircraft.)

I understand the difficulty to devs. Nonclickable cockpit can do most jobs for WWI and early WWII aircrafts. But for futher development of your sims, maybe new branch 777 would encounter, that's really important.

[GustavEicken]

if it is in the game then great, but if it isn't I won't be losing any sleep over it. Not essential in my opinion. Would rather have good flight models, good looking planes and an lovely environment to fly them in.

[SKG51_robtek]

I just wonder why anyone can be so narrow-minded to pledge so energetically against one more control option, which wont be included in the initial release anyway,

Especially if one has to be a mastermind to remember all those mapped controls!

Much easier to remember a cockpit layout, read the inscriptions, recognize a instrument and "reach" with your mouse the needed switch or knob than some button in a seldom used profile.

[Trident_109]

Thinking more on the subject, my caveat for clickable cockpits would be the need to look specifically where a switch or dial may be in order to move it. It's easy enough to find the 109's prop pitch on the dash but, for example, what about the radiator in the Hurricaine? If you're in battle and discover your temps a bit too high you need to relieve the engine by opening the radiator. There's no way to get the radiator lever into view without physically looking downward. I aready have enough issues with situational awareness. A R/L pilot would have the advantage of tactile manueverability (muscle memory) to remember where the radiator lever is and wouldn't have to take his eye off his enemy.

 

Again. I can see the added simulated realism of clickable cockpits and can see the value in it for those that enjoy it, but in reality it's a poor solution, IMO. I won't knock anyone who enjoys it, but it's not for me.

[=CHN=Crash]

Thinking more on the subject, my caveat for clickable cockpits would be the need to look specifically where a switch or dial may be in order to move it. It's easy enough to find the 109's prop pitch on the dash but, for example, what about the radiator in the Hurricaine? If you're in battle and discover your temps a bit too high you need to relieve the engine by opening the radiator. There's no way to get the radiator lever into view without physically looking downward. I aready have enough issues with situational awareness. A R/L pilot would have the advantage of tactile manueverability (muscle memory) to remember where the radiator lever is and wouldn't have to take his eye off his enemy.

 

Again. I can see the added simulated realism of clickable cockpits and can see the value in it for those that enjoy it, but in reality it's a poor solution, IMO. I won't knock anyone who enjoys it, but it's not for me.

At least it's better than one forgot the key of radiator in that situation. The worst thing in the world is that the knob you want is just under your nose in a prefect 6DOF cockpit , but the key is forgotten, and no mouse clicking.

[SKG51_robtek]

Of course the most used controls have to be on the hotas, one doesn't have to use the clickpit anyway, it would always be a extra option.

[TX-EcoDragon]

They used the controls mostly by touch.

 

Untrue, the pilots of complex aircraft have had it drilled into our heads that we are never to reach for a control without first looking at it and verifying that it is the one we intended to reach for. 

[TX-EcoDragon]

Same here. Unnecessary fluff in a combat flight sim IMO.

 

Right, and for me the single player campaign is unnecessary fluff, as are all the Capture the flag MP modes and the awards and hangar screen medals...but other folks enjoy it, so I'll gladly support/test/play along - because I'm not just in this to create my own personal play thing, but things for the broader user base that is far bigger than the guys that post in forums. 

[Jaws2002]

Clickable cockpit should be basic requirenment for a 2014 sim. But this is not going to be 2014 sim. It's sad to see so many things we took for granted be dumped.

[JediMaster]

 

If its supposed to be a simulator and classed as one it should have a clickable cockpit, its all about emersion and it should be the norm for all sims, Lock-on has had it since day one, and that was released in 2003.

 

If its a game/arcade then I suppose it doesnt need to have a clickable cockpit, but then the sim addicts wouldnt buy it, and that includes me. So basically when this new game is released thats what it will be, just a game, not a sim.

 

DCS: Black Shark was the first with a clickable cockpit, in 2008. I believe all LOMAC offered was a floating popup of whatever was under the mouse cursor, like CFS3 had (that Il-2 competitor so few remember now).

 

There were many simulators released before 2008, but I was unaware that none of them were actually simulators. Also, I would argue that none of the sims I've bought in the last 10 years had anywhere NEAR the immersion I got from the sims I flew in the 90s. The Jane's titles like Longbow and F-15E didn't have clickable pits, DID's EF2000 and TAW didn't.

 

But hey, if your entire definition of whether it's a sim hinges on a single nice but ultimately unnecessary feature, don't buy it. However, do not presume to claim you speak for all "sim addicts" who may not find ANY immersion in using a mouse to move a magical floating cursor around a cockpit to make a switch move as if by telekinesis.