What was the pilot's front view in the Spitfire cockpit like in real life?

[Gatling]

Hello every body,
What was the pilot's front view in the Spitfire cockpit like in real life?
Is the standard front sight in my spitfire in il2 Great Battles the exact front sight position of the pilot in real life?
like that: (Thank you very much ! )

[Diggun]

That depends how you are sitting and how you'd have the seat adjusted. 

 

Typically most pilots would sit as far 'up' in the cockpit as they could, then hunker down onto the sight as needed.

[Charon]

As a more general question, I'm also curious whether the axis of the reflector sight in fighters was always set up exactly parallel to the longitudinal axis of the plane, or if they were canted upwards slightly.

 

In the game, it feels like deflection shooting in a tight, sustained turn usually requires putting the enemy plane beneath the nose, where it's difficult to aim precisely or to make use of the sight. I have to imagine that, were I there, I would have asked the squadron armorer to kick my sight up about 2 mils (1 degree), and to do likewise with the guns. Obviously there are physical limits for how much the guns can be adjusted, but as long as they can still be zeroed to the sight, I see few downsides to this. It would make it difficult to keep on target while rolling, mostly, and that seems worth increasing the visibility (and reducing the lead angle!) required while deflection shooting.

 

In fact, I've experimented with a similar technique in the La-5, which has particularly poor visibility over the nose. Since I cannot adjust the sight itself, I set my zero to about 930m, and treat it as a 300m zero* relative to the +1mil mark. This gives me a zero that's usable at typical ranges, while also giving me a little more visibility when deflection shooting.

 

*: Or thereabouts. It's been a while since I experimented with this, and I don't remember the exact numbers.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Charon
note about lead angle

[Charon]

Although as I reflect on this further, I realize that I don't actually know how guns on fighters were adjusted. Was it generally done by adjusting the guns, or the sights, or both? I know wing guns were adjusted for convergence, but could they be adjusted vertically? Could cowling guns be adjusted vertically? Motorkanone?

[JG27_Steini]

6 hours ago, Gatling said:

Hello every body,
What was the pilot's front view in the Spitfire cockpit like in real life?
Is the standard front sight in my spitfire in il2 Great Battles the exact front sight position of the pilot in real life?
like that: (Thank you very much ! )

 

A 2D perspective cant hardly show the real view. If you have the possibility to try out VR you will see that the cockpit and the view is real. 

[Startrek66]

4 hours ago, Charon said:

Although as I reflect on this further, I realize that I don't actually know how guns on fighters were adjusted. Was it generally done by adjusting the guns, or the sights, or both? I know wing guns were adjusted for convergence, but could they be adjusted vertically? Could cowling guns be adjusted vertically? Motorkanone?

I can answer you for my knowledge on the Macchi 202, and I confirm that the two machine guns in the fuselage could be adjusted both vertically and laterally.  I therefore assume that it can be done on any other type of aircraft.

[SharpeXB]

16 hours ago, Charon said:

In the game, it feels like deflection shooting in a tight, sustained turn usually requires putting the enemy plane beneath the nose,

If you are seeing this, chances are the bandit is too high angle off. Here’s a great explanation 

 

[Dragon1-1]

What irks me is that AI is pretty good at taking and landing such shots. IRL, deflection shooting is difficult, and in a single-engine fighter (twins had it much better, one reason why P-38 was so beloved), the amount of lead you can pull without losing tally is extremely limited. I can, after a lot of practice, hit a target that's just below my nose, but that's it. Between the angle-off and the distance, there just aren't that many occasions where you can land a high-deflection shot using the sight. There was one WWII ace (that I know of) that routinely shot and hit targets below his nose, but he had a special technique and IIRC, mostly did it to bombers, which are rather predictable.

 

TBH, ACL videos are good for understanding the basics, but they won't replace practice. Nothing will. Just fly quick mission dogfights and after a while, you'll just know if the enemy is too far, angle off is too high, or, if not, how much lead to pull. Deflection shooting, especially with wing guns, is an art. If you're not sure if you have a shot, fire the rifle-caliber MGs only (if you have them) in a short burst, if you hit, follow up with an MG+cannon tracking shot.

[SharpeXB]

blind leading targets is generally a bad idea because:

A. You’ve lost sight of them

B. If you’re in lead pursuit that means you’re also closing distance with them

Which means you’re risking a collision. 
 

So just relax the turn and fall into a lower angle off where you can see the bandit and take a better shot. One thing that’s great about the physiology model is you need to watch your pursuit curve better, suddenly trying to pull lead will black you out. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

blind leading targets is generally a bad idea because:

A. You’ve lost sight of them

B. If you’re in lead pursuit that means you’re also closing distance with them

Which means you’re risking a collision. 
 

So just relax the turn and fall into a lower angle off where you can see the bandit and take a better shot. One thing that’s great about the physiology model is you need to watch your pursuit curve better, suddenly trying to pull lead will black you out. 

 

Sometimes not shooting target down is not an option. Learning to read enemy so you can blind lead is very useful thing when you are doing high speed passes. The fact that you have big excess of speed usually means lag pursuit is not and option. 

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Learning to read enemy so you can blind lead is very useful thing

In BFM training today it’s something they forbid as a safety measure and colliding in wartime would make you just as dead. 

6 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

The fact that you have big excess of speed usually means lag pursuit is not and option.

If you’re closing on the bandit you should go to lag in order to control closure and not risk an overshoot. 

[Avimimus]

I had a slightly traumatised reaction to this thread - I was afraid someone had found a bar in the Spitfire cockpit... and it'd go on for years.

 

Interesting conversation though.

[Feathered_IV]

As I understand it the 190s had their guns angled upwards a degree or two.   This makes sense in a way, as it would help you not be in your opponent’s prop wash when attacking from behind.  
 

Plus there is a bloody great bar there in real life.  There just is.  Come at me. 

[Charon]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If you are seeing this, chances are the bandit is too high angle off. Here’s a great explanation 

 

Sharpe, I feel like this video supports my point. Requiem uses lag pursuit to control closure and angles, but still typically needs to pull substantial lead to take the shot.

 

Of the first ten kills, only kills #3 and #9 are fully visible to Requiem as he shoots. Kills #1 and #10 are mostly or partially obscured. In over half of these kill shots (#2,4,5,6,7, and 8, by my count), Requiem must put the bandit fully beneath the nose to pull enough lead -- it passes completely out of view.

[IckyATLAS]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:02 AM, Gatling said:

Hello every body,
What was the pilot's front view in the Spitfire cockpit like in real life?
Is the standard front sight in my spitfire in il2 Great Battles the exact front sight position of the pilot in real life?
like that: (Thank you very much ! )

I have been in a fighter but not the Spitfire but the distances to the instrument wall, stick and throttle were similar.

What I can say is that the FOV was much more than this picture vertical and horizontal. And I mean by that my visual field.

But the question is very complex in reality. We have two eyes each has a visual arc and the two will overlap to have 3D vision.

 

The horizontal human field of view for both eyes (perception of movement) is about 200 degrees.

The horizontal binocular field of view (3D) is about 120°

The vertical human field of view (perception) is about 130°

The vertical field of view (3D) is about 60°

 

Then you have the Foveal zone which has maximum resolution and that we use to read for example. This has 3° to 5° max FOV.

This is why we continuously move our eyes to see details of our interest.

 

So now how we translate this into a video game cockpit image which is by definition flat 2D on our flat screens. (In VR things are completely different)

First problem you will never be able to create the visual field as the screen should wrap around your head (with 220° no way)

 

Let's say to make simple that you are about 70 cm from the cockpit instrument wall, and windshield that by the way contains the projection of your 2D video screen.

Let's have the 3D perception visual field at 120° horizontal and 60° vertical. This gives the dimensions of your 2D cockpit approximately at :

 

 

146 cm x 73 cm. (I have simplified here and flattened the 3D FOV surface of the vertical and horizontal arc)

Ratio is 2:1 or 2 instead of 16:9 that is 1.77. 

 

that makes it for a screen that has a 65 inch 16:9 standard screen to show entirely the image at 70cm from you eyes. Better have the screen the highest possible resolution say 8K would be perfect to avoid noticing the pixels and maybe Oled is still better here. Expect a hefty price tag. I have a 43" at 4K but with a viewing distance of about 80cm.  With large screens in front of you at short distance you need like in reality to move your head to look on all the surface of your screen.

 

Now that you have the surface to be displayed one to one with your physical cockpit you have to show the instruments that will fit in.

How wide and high was the front cockpit size? I do not have the exact dimensions of the cockpit of the Spitfire but clearly 70 cm vertical should allow to display one or two line of additional instruments. Because the image ratio is not the same as the human visual one then you will have less horizontal width for 70cm height.

You have to choose as the reference either height or width. Vertically we can do fine, the problem is horizontally. Because the cockpit is much less wide than 146 cm and that it is curved around you and for example throttle will be on your side at a much shorter distance, you need to consider the cockpit as a projection to your 2D with a lot of compromise.

Probably here only VR would be more realistic.

 

In conclusion increase a little the FOV of you initial stock image and it should be acceptable if your screen is not too far from you.

Enjoy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Monty_Thrud]

8 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

As I understand it the 190s had their guns angled upwards a degree or two.   This makes sense in a way, as it would help you not be in your opponent’s prop wash when attacking from behind.  
 

Plus there is a bloody great bar there in real life.  There just is.  Come at me. 

This man speaks the truth...bRiNg BaCk ThE BaR!1

[Startrek66]

I have a very basic system with a 22 inch monitor and I keep a distance of about 50cm from it.  I use the edtracker system.  I fly only Mc202 and I find that the stock fov 73 is truly reflective of the narrow cockpit of the Macchi.

[Cpt_Siddy]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

If you’re closing on the bandit you should go to lag in order to control closure and not risk an overshoot. 

 

Today we don't gun duel so much so i have no idea what they train wherever, having a radar assisted ballistic computer kind of make all that moot. And when you BnZ, overshooting is kind of the point...

 

 

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Charon said:

Sharpe, I feel like this video supports my point. Requiem uses lag pursuit to control closure and angles, but still typically needs to pull substantial lead to take the shot.

Deflection shooting and visibility over the nose of the aircraft is just reality. You do need to lead the target. The solution for this IRL was to get in a better position for shooting. Gun harmonization or convergence is a whole other subject but I don’t believe they ever angled the guns to shoot turning targets. Why? Because many targets you shot at weren’t turning; Bombers, ground strafing and the vast majority of kills against other fighters were simply surprise attacks against non maneuvering opponents. The game AI is always aware of you and likes to turn, if you’re trying to blindly shoot them under your nose you’re not in the correct pursuit. 

13 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Today we don't gun duel so much so i have no idea what they train wherever, having a radar assisted ballistic computer kind of make all that moot. And when you BnZ, overshooting is kind of the point...

 

 

Oh… no. Dogfighting is still dogfighting. Check out some sources although a modern manual on this reads like a calculus text book ?

But BFM is still the reality. DCS has some good campaigns and materials on it. If anything in a modern jet it’s all happening more quickly but the basics are exactly the same as ever. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

With the closure speeds of modern jets, doing bling shooting with very limited ammo count and all that, yeah totally not worth it. DCS jet gun combat is nothing like WW2 gun combat, where you can accelerate in 90 degree climb, have unstable hyper maneuverable computer assisted fly-by-wire and gun computer that can accurately shoot stuff down from 1km

 

WW2 is different beast, stop comparing apples to oranges. In here, spit literally shoots down f15 with under the nose blind lead , what a useless tactic and skill... ahahah

 

On more serious note...

 

Ability to read enemy well enough to lead him blind is a HUGE skill that matters in either medium speed high alpha combat or BnZ. You can argue all you want, and i will still shoot you down...

Edited August 18, 2021 by Cpt_Siddy

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

With the closure speeds of modern jets, doing bling shooting with very limited ammo count and all that, yeah totally not worth it. DCS jet gun combat is nothing like WW2 gun combat, where you can accelerate in 90 degree climb, have unstable hyper maneuverable computer assisted fly-by-wire and gun computer that can accurately shoot stuff down from 1km

 

WW2 is different beast, stop comparing apples to oranges. 

Check out some sources on this, BFM is BFM. If anything early modern era pilots (Vietnam) had forgotten all the lessons from WWII c’mon we all saw that movie. 
It used to be possible in IL-2 to do this sorta blind snap shot by throwing your nose in front of the bandit. Now you’ll black out doing that. Plus IRL you wouldn’t have the strength to pull like that. But whatever. 
The point is if you manage the pursuit better you don’t need to shoot blind. Losing sight of the bandit is also not a good move in any era. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Plus IRL you wouldn’t have the strength to pull like that. But whatever. 
The point is if you manage the pursuit better you don’t need to shoot blind. 

 

 ILR strength is personal variable, and i bet i could pull spit so hard i would black out, and thus able to pull snapshot. 

 

Lag pursuit is all good an nice if you have option to do so. In furballs, you usually don't have the luxury to live on someones 6 while he is setting you up for someone else. Speed is life and doing fast pass snapshot while retaining speed is preferable than gluing your nose to someones tailpipe and hoping his buddy wont do a fast drag and bag on you.

 

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

ILR strength is personal variable, and i bet i could pull spit so hard i would black out, and thus able to pull snapshot.

How would you make the shot if you’re blacked out? We’re playing the same game, right? When you black out in IL-2 unless you’ve got a lot of altitude or luck, you’re dead. 

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Lag pursuit is all good an nice if you have option to do so. In furballs, you usually don't have the luxury to live on someones 6 while he is setting you up for someone else. Speed is life and doing fast pass snapshot while retaining speed is preferable than gluing your nose to someones tailpipe and hoping his buddy wont do a fast drag and bag on you.

Now you’re talking tactics and not BFM. Pursuit curves are still a valid thing and a solution to the OPs dilemma. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How would you make the shot if you’re blacked out? We’re playing the same game, right? When you black out in IL-2 unless you’ve got a lot of altitude or luck, you’re dead. 

Now you’re talking tactics and not BFM. Pursuit curves are still a valid thing and a solution to the OPs dilemma. 

No, we are not playing the same game... There is things called positioning. If i am about to pull something that might black me out, i will do it in a way that sees me with lots of energy and shallow climb. When you are fighting on the edge of your planes performance, with best virtual pilots out there, every little bit counts. 

Blacking out is an option if it gets you the kill, because in this game, the onset of blackout is delayed enough i get the snapshot off. 

 

[Gatling]

Thank you very much guys and thank you SharpeXB for your video, i like it too much, So  Can anyone give me the exact position of the pilot's horizontal front view in the Spitfire cockpit in real life by screenshot of the IL2 Great Battles ?, Please, please !!!

Thank you !

 

Best regards

[SharpeXB]

56 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Blacking out is an option if it gets you the kill, because in this game

Ok I guess it depends if you’re approaching this as a game or a sim. If you’re playing for a K/D ratio in MP that’s fine. If you’re doing something like Iron Man Career which is a lot more like reality, then the real world advice is much more relevant. And actually more interesting. You’ll realize that real world air combat theory is a lot more about staying alive than getting kills. 

41 minutes ago, Gatling said:

Thank you very much guys and thank you SharpeXB for your video, i like it too much, So  Can anyone give me the exact position of the pilot's horizontal front view in the Spitfire cockpit in real life by screenshot of the IL2 Great Battles ?, Please, please !!!

Thank you !

 

Best regards

In the real cockpit they could raise or lower the seat as desired, you can in the game too with the view controls. There are perhaps some funny things which happen in a game when you’re looking at these cockpits in 2D, maybe VR would help? There’s a perspective factor to be accounted for, early on in the Fw190 it actually wasn’t possible to see some of the gauges. Then there’s a prismatic effect of the angled armored glass. A well knows phenomenon that can’t be created in the game. The DCS Spitfire is much much worse, I’m not sure why. Anyways you can just adjust this to suit your taste. 

[Gatling]

Thank you SharpeXB !

 

[Mollotin]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Check out some sources on this, BFM is BFM. If anything early modern era pilots (Vietnam) had forgotten all the lessons from WWII c’mon we all saw that movie. 
It used to be possible in IL-2 to do this sorta blind snap shot by throwing your nose in front of the bandit. Now you’ll black out doing that. Plus IRL you wouldn’t have the strength to pull like that. But whatever. 
The point is if you manage the pursuit better you don’t need to shoot blind. Losing sight of the bandit is also not a good move in any era. 

 

I have not combat experience but i know pilots were able to pull enough to black out so i see no reason why u would be unable to pull enough lead. Also blacking out does not happen instantly in IL2 u have several seconds to pull High Gs before u black out. (it used to be almost instant but it got fixed)

 

I do blind lead often in this sim and i think there is situations where it is the most effective way to get a kill. There is also situations where other kind of shooting is more effective. Maybe in career mode u dont need to use blind lead as often as in MP cause the AI really sucks (compared to human opponent) and thus less agressive way of flying gets u better results.

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, Mollotin said:

Maybe in career mode u dont need to use blind lead as often as in MP cause the AI really sucks (compared to human opponent)

One way that the AI is better than human players is that it always sees you and reacts, ie turns. Most kills in MP are against unaware opponents (unless you’re using icons) and don’t require any maneuvering at all. 
Next time instead of trying to pull lead so hard, just relax the turn and get into a lower aspect, you’ll even gain airspeed. Or if the enemy break turns, instead of pulling in the plane of their turn, do a yo yo (climb higher and then turn down into them)

Pulling real hard into the same plane as their turn leaves you open for them to force an overshoot, that’s an easy kill in the Spitfire vs a 109, break, force the overshoot and then turn in behind. The faster he’s coming at you the harder it will be for him to match your turn. 

[Startrek66]

56 minutes ago, Mollotin said:

 

I have not combat experience but i know pilots were able to pull enough to black out so i see no reason why u would be unable to pull enough lead. Also blacking out does not happen instantly in IL2 u have several seconds to pull High Gs before u black out. (it used to be almost instant but it got fixed)

 

I do blind lead often in this sim and i think there is situations where it is the most effective way to get a kill. There is also situations where other kind of shooting is more effective. Maybe in career mode u dont need to use blind lead as often as in MP cause the AI really sucks (compared to human opponent) and thus less agressive way of flying gets u better results.

First of all, never tighten the turn too much, so you lose energy. Rather, if you know you are faster as you hit the opponent, turn with him but at a higher altitude and then hit him from above. Rather than doing a continuous carousel, I stop following him and do share with over boost.

[Voyager]

As I recall, wasn't the US the only country that taught deflection shooting at all? 

 

I seem to recall that the Japanese doctrine was to come in from a funny angle to keep sight of the target. But I don't think British or German funnest doctrine had deflection shooting at all? 

 

I know doctrine changed over the war, but the core aircraft had their cockpits designed around the mid 30's era doctrine. And if your doctrine says "don't do deflection" why would a designer spend the time and volume to design the capability in? 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

As I recall, wasn't the US the only country that taught deflection shooting at all? 

 

Not hardly - "Bag the Hun" is a very well known document: https://combatace.com/files/file/17437-raf-wwii-air-combat/

[Voyager]

15 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Not hardly - "Bag the Hun" is a very well known document: https://combatace.com/files/file/17437-raf-wwii-air-combat/

But what year did that start? That one is 1941,after several years of conflict, but the Spitfire, Hurricane and 109 are all 1935 era. 

[SharpeXB]

19 hours ago, Voyager said:

As I recall, wasn't the US the only country that taught deflection shooting at all? 

Depending on which part of the war and which side, some pilots were hardly taught anything. But deflection shooting of moving targets is as old as firearms themselves.