Historical Correctness

[Supercharger]

Maybe you already heard from the wording „PowerEgg“ when we talk about QuickEngineChange unit's. This term is used quite often, particularly in english writing, it is used for unified german QEC unit's. But the question which arose for me is, is that true? Did the germans call there engines an „PowerEgg“ 75 year's ago? For me it is unlikely, because it sounds wrong and understated to call such an powerful and impressive engine an „Egg“. Furthermore i never saw an german source (book or document) where this term was used. What do you think? Is it a hoax evolved over decades? What's the origin?

[ZachariasX]

The term Kraftei was a known one in Germany and for instance used as nickname to the Me-163 Komet. This means the expression as such did exist in the common vocabulary, as opposed to the „Gabelschwanzteufel“.

 

But I have no definite answer if that was an older nickname for the concept of the Motoranlage. But if the term was used, one should find it in the building descriptions of the BMW801 early on.

Edited August 10, 2021 by ZachariasX

[Supercharger]

10 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

But if the term was used, one should find it in the building descriptions of the BMW801 early on.

I never find it in official descriptions or manuals, this is why i have concerns about the correct usage of this term (kraftei) today.

[ZachariasX]

6 minutes ago, Supercharger said:

I never find it in official descriptions or manuals, this is why i have concerns about the correct usage of this term (kraftei) today.

I never gave it much thought, now that you point it out it is indeed strange. As the expression is known in German as the alternative nickname of the Komet shows, maybe it is an informal expression used by RLM. Does RR internally refer to the Lancasters engine arrangement as „power egg“? Woukd the MAP use the term more?

[Supercharger]

On 8/10/2021 at 6:49 PM, ZachariasX said:

Woukd the MAP use the term more?

What is the meaning of “MAP“?....maintenance personal?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Supercharger

[ZachariasX]

45 minutes ago, Supercharger said:

What is the meaning of “MAP“?....maintenance personal?

The Ministry of Aircraft Procurement, sort of the „British RLM“.

 

I just speculated if the term was used by chairbone or technitians. If indeed the term was common lingo in both English and German, I speculate it must have been coined early, even before the war or indeed it is a term that is applied ex post.

[sevenless]

On 8/9/2021 at 5:07 AM, Supercharger said:

Maybe you already heard from the wording „PowerEgg“ when we talk about QuickEngineChange unit's. This term is used quite often, particularly in english writing, it is used for unified german QEC unit's. But the question which arose for me is, is that true? Did the germans call there engines an „PowerEgg“ 75 year's ago? For me it is unlikely, because it sounds wrong and understated to call such an powerful and impressive engine an „Egg“. Furthermore i never saw an german source (book or document) where this term was used. What do you think? Is it a hoax evolved over decades? What's the origin?

 

Interesting question. All I can say as a native german with more than 30 years of interest in all things aviation is, that I only know the term "Kraft-Ei" from one single context. That is the slang nickname term (Spitzname) description of the Me 163B "Komet". If you look at the afaik first german post war book by a Me-163 pilot, Herman "Mano" Ziegler, you will find him frequently referring to the Komet as the "Kraft-Ei". So my guesstimate would be, that the term "Kraft-Ei" was either coined in the 40s by the personel involved with Komet development-testing-operational usage, or the term existed earlier in another context. His book was published before the book of Wolfgang Späte, who was the CO of JG400, the only wing which flew the Komet operationally.

 

In german language, if you are referring to the engine, the terms "Aggregat", "Antriebsaggregat", "Motor", "Motorblock", "Maschine" are common. Never heard a technician refer to the Motorblock as the "Kraft-Ei", so my guess is, that the term "power-egg" is more common in the english speaking world, than in the german speaking part.

 

The later author Herman "Mano" Ziegler was born 1908 and more importantly was testpilot for the Komet from the very beginning with Erprobungskommando 16. Wikipedia has the following to say about him (google translation from german wiki):

 

Quote

In the Second World War he was initially only used as a transfer pilot for fighter planes because of his "old age", but then volunteered for Test Command 16. In addition to Heini Dittmar, Rudolf Opitz and Wolfgang Späte, he was one of the test pilots and flyers of the Messerschmitt Me 163, the rocket aircraft developed by Alexander Lippisch. The Me 163 was the first aircraft to exceed a speed of 1000 km / h and thus reached the limit of the sound barrier. [4] After the failure of the three Klemm factory pilots Voy, Perschall and Lamm, he and Sergeant Nelte were given their duties. He was soon one of the pilots with the most take-offs on the Me 163. After this time, he was entrusted with pilot training for Jagdgeschwader 400 on the Udetfeld near Warthenau in 1944.

• Raketenjäger Me 163, Tatsachenbericht von einem der überlebte. Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart 1961, ISBN 3-87943-372-0.
• Mano Ziegler: Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet (Das Kraftei). Podzun-Pallas Verlag, Friedberg 1977, ISBN 3-7909-0061-3.

Edited August 13, 2021 by sevenless

[Supercharger]

In conclusion,

 

there is no doubt that the term „Kraftei“ was used for the Me 163, what makes sense for me. But every thing else is dubiously, and for me it's highly questionable that this word(to describe an engine) was in common use in the german airforce during the war. 

[Chief_Mouser]

From wikipedia:

 

The Bristol Aeroplane Company devised an installation known as a "power egg" for the Hercules engine in 1938,^[5] an example of which was exhibited at the 1938 Paris Aeronautical Salon.^[6] The Hercules installation was used on the Bristol Beaufighter, Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle, Vickers Wellington, Short Stirling, and Handley Page Halifax.^[7]

 

So an English-language term that could have been known in Germany before WW2 and used unofficially?

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

So an English-language term that could have been known in Germany before WW2 and used unofficially?

I think it would be a plausible explanation. It would also ecplain why the term is more frequently used in English nomenclature.

[Bremspropeller]

I think I have read the term "Kraftei" once or twice in some transcripts/ docs, but I'd have to take hours for finding it.

 

As with you, the term makes no sense to me, when describung the engine-installation. It's just a stupid word, with eggs being flimsy and easy to break.

Not exactly the kind of properties a pilot or maintainer would like to associate with his engines...

 

The use of Kraftei when describing the 163 fits right into the sarcastic names given by Germans to all kinds of things.

 

Like "Circus Maximus" to the new extension to the Chancellery building in Berlin...

[Chief_Mouser]

8 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I think I have read the term "Kraftei" once or twice in some transcripts/ docs, but I'd have to take hours for finding it.

 

As with you, the term makes no sense to me, when describung the engine-installation. It's just a stupid word, with eggs being flimsy and easy to break.

Not exactly the kind of properties a pilot or maintainer would like to associate with his engines...

 

The use of Kraftei when describing the 163 fits right into the sarcastic names given by Germans to all kinds of things.

 

Like "Circus Maximus" to the new extension to the Chancellery building in Berlin...

 

The 'egg' is a reference to something totally contained with in a shell or fully enclosed case that can be picked up and transported without the need to alter anything. I don't think that whoever came up with it was concerned about fragility. It doesn't seem an odd phrase in English to me, it's just somebody's use of an unlikely noun for a unique situation.

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

The use of Kraftei when describing the 163 fits right into the sarcastic names given by Germans to all kinds of things.

This. A flimsy thing that might break (explode) doing a simple landing would actually be a suitable reference to a known expression for a „power package“ that is frail as an egg. I think it both indicates that the term was known in German language (because it is an odd expression to be made up for the occasion), and it also gives reference to how such a term is best applied in German language (and humor).