Dolphin Wing Shredding

[Napping-Man]

Ok, don't want to kick the hornet's nest again about the DM, but is it a known issue that after 1 bullet hole, the Dolphin's wing turns to wet tissue paper and crumbles after a few g's?  I took one up in a free flight and stunted about, no issues.  

 

In combat, I get one hit from a Halb Observer from like 1000 yards away (that's another thread), and I turn away...<CRACK> no more wing.

 

Go up again, Sniper shot from a head-on Dr.1...turn...<CRACK>

 

Granted, I may just be unlucky, but this seems to be repeatable.

 

 

[J2_Bidu]

When hit, handle with care. Don't pull.

 

It's the way it should be flown anyway.

 

P.S.: this is probably easier to achieve with a long joystick (extension, which I don't have), which gives you more precision, and/or a heavy joystick (I own the Warthog).

Edited June 28, 2021 by J2_Bidu

[Napping-Man]

Yes, I get that.  But after ONE hit...EVERY TIME?  The Camel doesn't do this.  It seems like every bullet goes right to the Spar.

[US41_Winslow]

The Dolphin actually requires more bullets to break its wings than the Camel.  However, I do feel the Dolphin is more prone to losing its wings and I think it might in part be due to the fact that the Dolphin is much more stable than the Camel, resulting in the attacker getting a longer firing window as you force the Dolphin out of level flight whereas with the Camel it will almost instantaneously depart level flight when you want it to due to the airplane being very unstable.  Overall, airplanes should rarely come apart in a fight and this is very poorly represented in Flying Circus so for the time being, all I can say is avoid dogfights and never attack without an altitude advantage to minimize the chances of being hit.  Once you are hit, there isn’t much you can do besides disengage without pulling too many g’s if you don’t want to go to pieces in anything other than a Fokker, Pfalz or Bristol.

[BMA_Hellbender]

The Dolphin is slightly faster, hence easier to pull more Gs. Otherwise it’s the same wing, but bigger. You can actually take quite a bit of damage as long as you keep it below 2G. Control cables are a different matter…

[J2_Trupobaw]

That's one hit you have heard, because bullet hit something hard.

Just stay under 2-3 G; use rudder if you need more (quarter-roll and rudder becomes elevator). Dolphin bleeds energy if you pull more than  3G, it should be avoided even with your wings intact...

[Napping-Man]

I didn't know that in FC, when you hear the "bullet hit" sound, it means it's hitting something "solid"....I thought it just played the sound when you're hit, period.  That's interesting.  So no sound if the bullets are just passing through Canvas.  Makes sense, but didn't realize FC was that sophisticated in that regard.

[No.23_Starling]

Either way, the Dvii, Dr1, and DIII can take much more damage and pull harder Gs, making multiplayer borked to the point of meme. Better to take a hit-and-run plane and hope your elevator doesnt get sniped at 1000m whilst disengaging or someone in an F16 aka Dviif isn’t above you and diving - apart from level flight the Dviif will beat you at everything apart from crying tears of frustration. Thankfully both sides suffer cable damage. Then again the Central pilots have impossibly reliable parachutes so have less reason to complain. Or just fly ww2 and take the Tempest.

FC2 should help when we get 1917 maps without Fokkers or parachutes (you’d think?!) and everyone comes apart with a gentle breeze and can’t be teleported to perfect safety by magical failsafe silk.

[Cynic_Al]

3 hours ago, Napping-Man said:

 

 

In combat, I get one hit from a Halb Observer from like 1000 yards away (that's another thread), and I turn away...<CRACK> no more wing.

 

Go up again, Sniper shot from a head-on Dr.1...turn...<CRACK>

 

 

 

 

Here we go again:  What means do you have at your disposal for determining the number of hits your plane received?

[J2_Bidu]

52 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said:

[...] and can’t be teleported to perfect safety [...]

 

Like a Spad dive? Come on...

 

44 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

 

Here we go again:  What means do you have at your disposal for determining the number of hits your plane received?

 

Reading the innards of an animal may help, although it is a tricky art. But reading the innards of the deceased pilot will ensure divinatory success: he received plenty, all right.

 

52 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said:

FC2 should help when we get 1917 maps without Fokkers or parachutes (you’d think?!).

 

I'm waiting for early 1916, without Spads too! Ah blast! There's the Fokking Eindecker!

Edited June 28, 2021 by J2_Bidu

[Napping-Man]

44 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

 

Here we go again:  What means do you have at your disposal for determining the number of hits your plane received?

 

Mainly the Sound, obviously.  When the new visible Damage shows up, that'll help.  Just seems odd and rather cookie-cutter that the same damage happens every time I'm hit.  Every.  Flight.  THUD...turn...CRACK.  It seems to be very binary.  If player is hit at all=>then wings fall off at lower g-load.  I will test this out by loading up my revolver and firing at my wing at see what happens.

 

Again, EVERY TIME I hear the hit sound, it seems to mean damage to the wings.  Like the Hit-box for the Spar is the whole model or something.

 

 

[US41_Winslow]

1 hour ago, Cynic_Al said:

Here we go again:  What means do you have at your disposal for determining the number of hits your plane received?

The difference between how many times a Fokker needs to be shot and how many times a Camel needs to be shot does not need to be counted to see that something is off.  Looking at the graphs from the developers last year, it is quite simple to see that 60% of the time, the Camel will go to pieces after five rounds if the pilot pulls 4g and only a few more for 3g.  Does anyone really think it is accurate for any of these airplanes to go to pieces after being shot for less than 1/4 of a second?

[Napping-Man]

And I will also add that I have no problem with adjusting my flying to the damage model.  HOWEVER, it would be nice to KNOW that I'm in trouble...instead of "oh, I got just hit...somewhere...better not turn much".  If I look over and see my Rigging lines are gone, or my struts riddled with bullets...yeah, I'm going home and taking it easy on the old crate.  But now there is no way to tell if I'm in trouble.  Which is why it seems out of place to have every single hit on my plane means my wing is damaged.

[J2_Bidu]

39 minutes ago, Miners said:

The difference between how many times a Fokker needs to be shot and how many times a Camel needs to be shot does not need to be counted to see that something is off.  Looking at the graphs from the developers last year, it is quite simple to see that 60% of the time, the Camel will go to pieces after five rounds if the pilot pulls 4g and only a few more for 3g.  Does anyone really think it is accurate for any of these airplanes to go to pieces after being shot for less than 1/4 of a second?

 

100 shots is about 5 seconds worth. But maybe the Camel pilot didn't pull...  

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by J2_Bidu

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, US93_Rummell said:

Either way, the Dvii, Dr1, and DIII can take much more damage and pull harder Gs, making multiplayer borked to the point of meme. Better to take a hit-and-run plane and hope your elevator doesnt get sniped at 1000m whilst disengaging or someone in an F16 aka Dviif isn’t above you and diving - apart from level flight the Dviif will beat you at everything apart from crying tears of frustration.

 

D.VII(F) wing durability is fine, pretty much representative of a late Albatros-built with proper quality control.

 

D.VIII samesies, it's not an E.V (Fokker was ordered to stop cutting corners by that time).

 

Dr.I should lose its top wing when pulling out of 5-6g dives (see above).

 

Pfalz wing strength is ludicrous. I'll take 10!

 

 

1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

Like a Spad dive? Come on...

 

SPAD maximum dive speed is higher, but D.VIIF dive acceleration is better, so it's all about initial separation at the onset of the dive. Since a single hit really is all it takes to knock out both elevators and hence makes landing the SPAD challenging to say the least, it really does require at least two planes to engage one D.VIIF, just so it has to keep turning. Preferably SPAD + Camel (+ Dolphin).

 

Aaah, 3PG ? IRFC... still a better love story than Twilight.

[US41_Winslow]

34 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

100 shots is about 5 seconds worth. But maybe the Camel pilot didn't pull...  

 

Going through 46 Squadron combat reports from the period, I found that one Fokker broke up after the Camel attacking it fired 100 rounds.  Despite this, breaking up should not be the primary reason airplanes are destroyed and with a realistic damage model most times you fire 100 rounds at an airplane, it should not break up, as reflected in every other engagement they had during this period with Fokker (I forget how many, if there were any, two-seaters broke up but most airplanes destroyed fell out of control).  However, if the damage model was changed so that wire-braced airplanes fall apart after five seconds, it would be a huge improvement and make flying these airplanes much more survivable.  

[=IRFC=Gascan]

1 hour ago, Napping-Man said:

And I will also add that I have no problem with adjusting my flying to the damage model.  HOWEVER, it would be nice to KNOW that I'm in trouble...instead of "oh, I got just hit...somewhere...better not turn much".  If I look over and see my Rigging lines are gone, or my struts riddled with bullets...yeah, I'm going home and taking it easy on the old crate.  But now there is no way to tell if I'm in trouble.  Which is why it seems out of place to have every single hit on my plane means my wing is damaged.

Every hit to the wing hitbox has a chance of causing damage to the spar. This chance is adjusted based on the angle of impact: very small from above or below, very large if directly behind. Therefore not every hit will cause spar damage. However, as you point out, there is no way for the pilot to tell if the spar is damaged. nothing. Zero. Zilch. It follows, then, that since any hit could cause damage to the spar, one must assume that spar damage has been taken with every hit and reduce the load on the spar to prevent pulling the wings off. That lack of feedback to the pilot, the lack of knowing the status of your plane is very frustrating to say the least. Engine damage you can hear the noise change, or the see the RPM change. You can watch your tachometer as you overspeed the engine and know what the limit is. Not so with damaged wings.

And yes, the Dolphin seems particularly fragile. I flew it a bunch in Bloody April/Operation Michael and occasionally had the wings fall off in a gentle bank after a single long range burst. One time I survived a good 45 seconds of dueling with a Pfalz and some intense maneuvers after taking some hits before the wings fell off, but that was very unusual. Almost every sortie in the Dolphin resulted in my death. The only question was if I could take someone with me or not.

[J2_Bidu]

9 minutes ago, gascan said:

Almost every sortie in the Dolphin resulted in my death.

 

My best streak finished recently. Total sorties by plane type:

 

Halberstadt - 2

D7F - 3

DVa - 12
Dolphin - 12
DR1 - 20

 

It can be argued that the Albatros is also extremely fragile.

The Dolphin still shows as my "favorite aircraft" on Flugpark.

I died flying a DR1.

[ST_Catchov]

I believe the DM is wrong with a variety of aircraft. That's the problem. No point in arguing.

 

So we wait for the devs to fix them. Yeah it's boring I know ....

 

In the meantime, I ditched the accordion. The groupies were too demanding. I mean, how many times can you play Besame Mucho?

 

So I've taken up the pan flute. I'm on a bit of a musical odyssey right now to break the monotony. It's true. Workin' on Simon & Garfunkel's El Condor Pasa and I think I've nailed it!

 

[Napping-Man]

43 minutes ago, gascan said:

Therefore not every hit will cause spar damage.

I think that every hit DOES indeed cause Spar damage.    Regardless of where it lands.  Again, I plan on testing this by shooting up my own airplane tonight.  ?

 

Wait...do the revolvers actually do damage?  I've never really tried to use it before...jeez now I'll have to file a complaint that I can't shoot myself down.  

[Napping-Man]

Well, I really just wanted to see if I could shoot myself down.   I can't, apparently.   Spent a good ten minutes shooting my own aircraft with a pistol to no effect.  SCIENCE!

[=IRFC=Gascan]

17 minutes ago, Napping-Man said:

Well, I really just wanted to see if I could shoot myself down.   I can't, apparently.   Spent a good ten minutes shooting my own aircraft with a pistol to no effect.  SCIENCE!

I've definitely pulled a Dr. Henry Jones Sr. moment in a two-seater before. In fact, just earlier this week I chopped both elevators off Kotori's Bristol while shooting at a D.VII that was hiding under the tail.

[BMA_Hellbender]

6 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

My best streak finished recently. Total sorties by plane type:

 

Halberstadt - 2

D7F - 3

DVa - 12
Dolphin - 12
DR1 - 20

 

It can be argued that the Albatros is also extremely fragile.

The Dolphin still shows as my "favorite aircraft" on Flugpark.

I died flying a DR1.

 

Yeah the Dolphin is a great all-rounder. If it were just 10km/h faster it would easily be a better machine than the S.E.5a, or if it climbed/turned only slightly better than it does now, it would be a better dogfighter than the Camel (*cough* Snipe *cough*).

 

The Dr.I really is fight-till-you-die-chute. Then again if it were even 10km/h faster and still be just as tough, it would completely outclass the D.VIII. How do we convince 777 that it should be 5km/h faster? Heck, how do we convince them of anything?

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

Heck, how do we convince them of anything?

 

Hoodwink them into thinking it's WWII? Nah, I'm sure the devs are working diligently on correcting all the issues that have been raised. They've got the pie charts.

[J2_Trupobaw]

13 hours ago, Napping-Man said:

I didn't know that in FC, when you hear the "bullet hit" sound, it means it's hitting something "solid"....I thought it just played the sound when you're hit, period.  That's interesting.  So no sound if the bullets are just passing through Canvas.  Makes sense, but didn't realize FC was that sophisticated in that regard.

There is a quiet hiss when bullets go through canavas. I used to think these are sounds of near misses, then I started noticing bullet holes...

[Cynic_Al]

12 hours ago, Napping-Man said:

Mainly the Sound, obviously.

 

Exactly what I expected; unfortunately as anyone with experience of this game will attest, there's no necessary correlation. 

[Cynic_Al]

2 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

The Dr.I really is fight-till-you-die-chute. Then again if it were even 10km/h faster and still be just as tough, it would completely outclass the D.VIII. How do we convince 777 that it should be 5km/h faster? Heck, how do we convince them of anything?

 

Why don't you start a separate thread for convincing us of that?  Hitherto you've only ever convinced me of one thing and it has nothing to do with planes, so I would look forward to your dissertation on the Dr1's speed, despite preliminary data from a Dr1 owner showing that you must be wrong.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

At Flugpark recently:

 

Flying a D7F: I evaded a bounce and deliberately followed an SE5A down into a trap.  Steamed a Brisfit; participated in the most brutal 3-way shoot-down of an SE5A I have ever recorded; and attacked a Dolphin.  Got him steaming; inflicted lots of airframe damage and he went out of control.  But the wings didn't come off until he was on his way down in a death-roll.  (That's with the twin Schpondoughs.) 

 

Flying an N-28 with balloon guns, I fired from the co-alt 5 o:clock position at about 140 meters and de-winged a Halberstadt with one eight-shot burst to the right top center-section; simultaneously dueled with an Alby and Triplane for twelve minutes landing the occasional shot while catching considerable incoming and eventually shooting them down.  It was a lot of work.  (That was with the 11's)

 

And all of that seems about right to me, as far as how I was flying / shooting and where the DM is concerned.

 

So I haven't seen any evidence of wings coming off due to one shot through any part of the airframe in MP.

 

YMMV

Edited June 29, 2021 by Todt_Von_Oben

[BMA_Hellbender]

4 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Why don't you start a separate thread for convincing us of that?  Hitherto you've only ever convinced me of one thing and it has nothing to do with planes, so I would look forward to your dissertation on the Dr1's speed, despite preliminary data from a Dr1 owner showing that you must be wrong.

I’m glad to hear I was able to convince you of the N28’s shortcomings, which is indeed currently about as far removed of an actual plane as can be.

 

As for my dissertation on the Dr.I’s speed, no need to start a thread about it, all I’d like to know is why its static RPM is so low compared to the D.VIII.

[J2_Trupobaw]

 

38 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

I’m glad to hear I was able to convince you of the N28’s shortcomings, which is indeed currently about as far removed of an actual plane as can be.

 

As for my dissertation on the Dr.I’s speed, no need to start a thread about it, all I’d like to know is why its static RPM is so low compared to the D.VIII.

RoF N.28 was more removed from actual plane. And you know why are static RPM are different - 2014 patch adjusted them arbitraly for Dr.I.

[US41_Winslow]

5 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

Flying a D7F: I evaded a bounce and deliberately followed an SE5A down into a trap.  Steamed a Brisfit; participated in the most brutal 3-way shoot-down of an SE5A I have ever recorded; and attacked a Dolphin.  Got him steaming; inflicted lots of airframe damage and he went out of control.  But the wings didn't come off until he was on his way down in a death-roll.

Looking at the sortie log, both the SE and Dolphin were flown by the AI.  Since the AI knows exactly how many g’s they can pull before they go to pieces, they are much less prone to wing shedding than humans.  Against humans, it looks very different  because they do not know how many g’s they can pull and they therefore break up much more often.

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, Miners said:

Looking at the sortie log, both the SE and Dolphin were flown by the AI.  Since the AI knows exactly how many g’s they can pull before they go to pieces, they are much less prone to wing shedding than humans.  Against humans, it looks very different  because they do not know how many g’s they can pull and they therefore break up much more often.

You’ll notice too that they’re laughably easy to shoot down, partly due to the AI being careful as hell. The AI gunners on the other hand can - and will - snipe you at 1km after the wings have come off their mount and the pilot has been killed. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by US93_Rummell

[ST_Catchov]

3 hours ago, US213_Talbot said:

I'll get the lights.

 

You're getting good at this.  I'm always just too late ....

[US103_Baer]

On 6/29/2021 at 12:01 AM, Napping-Man said:

 

In combat, I get one hit from a Halb Observer from like 1000 yards away (that's another thread), and I turn away...<CRACK> no more wing.

 

Go up again, Sniper shot from a head-on Dr.1...turn...<CRACK>

 

Granted, I may just be unlucky, but this seems to be repeatable.

 

 

 

Sounds about right,  ?

 

All the comments advising to handle Entente (+ Alb) planes like babies after getting a few holes are correct - in the FC universe - which shouldn't be confused with the actual universe.

Weirdly, some of us get a perverted thrill from trying to succeed because it IS like this. 

 

Have accumulated a lot of hrs flying Fokkers and Pfalzs against good Spad pilots, and it's kinda easy mode.  Point, shoot, pull hard. Get shot up like colander? Carry right on pulling hard, but maybe don't dive AND pull hard. 

 

With Entente planes + Alb, CL2 once you get any amount of wing damage you're out of the fight.  Go home if you can. This all happened in v4.005/6. Before that things were fine and the DM was well liked by all. 

 

Summary. 

Huns pilots learn to spray and pray.

Entente pilots learn to run away.

Edited June 30, 2021 by US28_Baer

[US41_Winslow]

1 hour ago, US28_Baer said:

Entente pilots learn to run away.

 

Except in the Camel.  You need to really make sure you choose your fights extra carefully since you can’t run away from anything but a Triplane, which is why I find it especially amusing to hear people complain about the Camel being too good.  All a Camel pilot can do to escape is put it into a tight turn and hope no one shoots you for more than a second or so while a Fokker just puts its nose down and go whizzing away from danger.  Any well-flown DVII should be near-untouchable when attacking a Camel.

[J2_Bidu]

5 hours ago, US28_Baer said:

With Entente planes + Alb, CL2 once you get any amount of wing damage you're out of the fight.  Go home if you can.

 

This is not my recent experience in the Camel either.

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

This is not my recent experience in the Camel either.

 

Once you take wing damage in the Sopwiths, it's over. It could be superficial or it could be catastrophic, there's really no way to tell. You can try your luck and stay in the fight; in the Camel you may not have much of a choice as diving away even from a Dr.I is tricky business. In the Dolphin as long as you enter a shallow steepening dive, even a D.VIIF will have trouble keeping his aim on you, and Dolphin wings can take a ton of punishment at 1G. The best he can hope for is a pilot or control cable hit. This is bound to change once Central gets the D.XII, a far more stable gun platform.

 

You will still need someone to eventually clear your six, which is all the more reason that you should never, ever fly alone in a Sopwith. Better yet: never, ever fly a Sopwith unless you have something of a death wish. You're always safer in an S.E.5a or Bristol F.III (adjustable stabilizer). Still it's great to have a Camel along as an angry dogfighter to unleash on D.VIIFs that want to turnfight, and a Dolphin as AWACS / all-rounder / bait.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[J2_Trupobaw]

Pulling more than 2-3 Gs in any plane is just pissing off your energy, regardless of wing condition. In Entente planes, learning to keep your Gs always low (and your energy high) is key to 1) avoid being hit in first place 2) keep fighting same way until you start losing control surfaces. In Central planes - good luck generating more than 3 continous Gs in a fight, they are either not maneuvrable enough for that (D.VIIF) or to slow and underpowered (everything else). 

 

The biggest problem in FC on any side, in any plane condition, is unlearn joystick arm wrestling reflexes from RoF. It's not baby handling the plane, it's energy managment.

 

[No.23_Starling]

41 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Pulling more than 2-3 Gs in any plane is just pissing off your energy, regardless of wing condition. In Entente planes, learning to keep your Gs always low (and your energy high) is key to 1) avoid being hit in first place 2) keep fighting same way until you start losing control surfaces. In Central planes - good luck generating more than 3 continous Gs in a fight, they are either not maneuvrable enough for that (D.VIIF) or to slow and underpowered (everything else). 

 

The biggest problem in FC on any side, in any plane condition, is unlearn joystick arm wrestling reflexes from RoF. It's not baby handling the plane, it's energy managment.

 

Just a shame that the SE5a keeps energy as well as a long COVID sufferer, unlike the diii, Dva and Dviif that can prophang for 10 years and pull 100% elevator deflection without stall (Dva). Energy management is not just a FC sim concern - that’s all sims.

 

What makes ww1 fighting fun (for many of us) was being able to joystick wrestle and stunt at low speed. Babying the Sopwiths now to avoid shreds takes away that fun for many of us and drives away players (and entire squads). 
 

I’d love to see an ‘arcade spar’ mode so those who don’t want to fly their famous dogfighter like an A380 have that option. FC launch DM was buckets and buckets of fun, and I distinctly remember shouting at the screen: “finally! They fixed the stupid paper wings from RoF! This is brilliant!” I didn’t even want to shoot chutes.

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Pulling more than 2-3 Gs in any plane is just pissing off your energy, regardless of wing condition. In Entente planes, learning to keep your Gs always low (and your energy high) is key to 1) avoid being hit in first place 2) keep fighting same way until you start losing control surfaces. In Central planes - good luck generating more than 3 continous Gs in a fight, they are either not maneuvrable enough for that (D.VIIF) or to slow and underpowered (everything else). 

 

The biggest problem in FC on any side, in any plane condition, is unlearn joystick arm wrestling reflexes from RoF. It's not baby handling the plane, it's energy managment.

 

I agree and ever since the wings were made weaker my flying in the Dolphin has become more akin to how I assume I would fly it in real life, though I have no experience in wood and canvas planes (working on it...).

 

Then again some planes simply do not follow that logic, most notably the Pfalz and recently also the Bristol, but to a lesser extent This is really the biggest realism killer in FC: little to no consistency in FM and DM between planes that are fundamentally built the same way.