Junkers Ju 88 C-6 version and armament

[SShrike]

Does anyone know what version of the C-6 will be created? There was some discussion about the armaments that will be available on comms the other night. Will it be a pure heavy fighter or will there be bombing capability? Will it be modelled like the Hurricane in that it will kind of represents a few variants based on gun selections and armaments?

[CUJO_1970]

Yes, it's going to be max-loaded down with a whopping 10 SC50s, same bomb load as a 109G.

 

It's going to be super useful over Normandy.

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

In the sim it will be useful for attacking trains and vehicle columns, as long as it is operated in areas where the Axis has local air superiority or good escorts.  If it ventures out alone it's dead meat if it encounters Allied fighters.  It's losses in the real defense of Normandy were appalling.

 

In single player, with a properly made campaign of anti shipping and maritime patrol it will be in it's element.  Hours and hours of flying around, interspersed with moments of action attacking the odd ship.

 

A DF scenario pitting the C6 against Mosquitos might be entertaining, if you are flying the Mossy...  

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Yes, it's going to be max-loaded down with a whopping 10 SC50s, same bomb load as a 109G.

 

It's going to be super useful over Normandy.

 

 

 

You can ride to your death in comfort as opposed to those nasty, cramped 109s.  You will have company too.

35 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

In single player, with a properly made campaign of anti shipping and maritime patrol it will be in it's element.  Hours and hours of flying around, interspersed with moments of action attacking the odd ship.

 

This is where mission design does not have to meet real life.  I just make the missions such that it's a straight shot from the coast and the ships are there.  There are also intercept missions where you can have the Ju88 intercepting A20s and the like.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I may be in the minority but ever since I read about this version of the Ju88 I've wanted to have it in the sim. That goes back to the IL-2: Forgotten Battles days where there were times where the Ju88A-4's bombload was less useful to me than the strafing abilities. I think it will suffer like most ground attack aircraft do in multiplayer in the face of a concerted defensive screen but on the other hand I think it'll be around as good as the A-20 at low altitude attacks where the name of the game is evasion and occasionally terrain masking.

 

I'm most curious about the forward firepower. There were different iterations including with MG-FF and MG151/20 with just 1 gun or 3 guns in addition to the machine guns.

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Yes, it's going to be max-loaded down with a whopping 10 SC50s, same bomb load as a 109G.

 

It's going to be super useful over Normandy.

 

There is a chance that it'll have external racks. They could be fitted to the Ju-88C and were often used for drop-tanks, but there was apparently use of them for night-bombing/intruder attacks. It actually appears that ETC racks were a bit common in the Ju-88G... so it seems to have become more common towards the end of the war.

 

As mentioned there is also the option of a mixture of 1-3 20mm cannons which could be MG-FF, MG-151, or a mixture.

 

Some aircraft might also have been flown without the defensive guns (in order to save weight) - although I haven't checked that out. Certainly, toward the end of the war, the Me-410 was flown without the defensive guns/gunner.

 

 

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

A DF scenario pitting the C6 against Mosquitos might be entertaining, if you are flying the Mossy...  

 

It'd be good if we had an AI Beaufighter - as then the Ju-88C would at least have a speed advantage against it. Up against the Mossie it'll be in real trouble.

 

As I was informed a while ago in another thread, the Beaufighter itself was at an advantage over the Ju-88C - so much so that the Ju-88C started flying in force over the Bay of Biscay (imaging six or eight of the big Ju-88Cs working together in a dogfight)! One can try it right now in Desert Wings. It is impressive.

 

It takes a bit of learning though, as energy management (and aiming) is somewhat different when you are flying such large planes. That said - I'd expect the BoN version to be a better gun platform than the Desert Wings version (based on the Ju-88A4 flight model in BoM)!

 

P.S. I think it is best to see the Ju-88C as an intruder... since without an AI British bomber (Wellington, Lancaster) or coastal command aircraft (Wellington, Beaufighter) or a slower Russian bomber (Il-4)... it'll be limited to hunting the Li-2 night bombers. Obviously it could still run down a U-2VS biplane night bomber as well (although the He-111 was apparently better for hunting those than the Ju-88 was).

Edited June 22, 2021 by Avimimus

[Aurora_Stealth]

Yeah, have to say... except for the novelty of the aircraft, unless we're getting the Ju88 R-2 modification with improved engines; I'd much rather opt for a Me 410 any day of the week.

 

The only problem is we won't receive the '410 towards the end of the year. 

 

[LukeFF]

You all keep forgetting that the C-6 was used extensively in the East in specialized train-busting units. ? This isn't just a maritime patrol plane for Normandy that was pressed into a role for which it was ill-suited.

[Avimimus]

Does anyone know why ETC racks were more common towards the end of the war?

 

It had occurred to me that these Ju-88 night fighters might've been used as bombers increasingly as the situation got more desperate (certainly a few were deployed as night bombers during the Ardennes offensive - but for all I know they were also being used to counter break-throughs in the east).

 

Alternatively, they could have been increasing the number of drop-tank equipped units in order to support longer patrols as it became harder to reliably intercept bombers (due to better counter-measures).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the truth is now lost - but there might be a few surviving squadron records that someone has stumbled across?

[PatrickAWlson]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

You all keep forgetting that the C-6 was used extensively in the East in specialized train-busting units. ? This isn't just a maritime patrol plane for Normandy that was pressed into a role for which it was ill-suited.

 

Historical or not, there's a lot of water on the Kuban map for it to fulfill it's natural role.

[Asgar]

9 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Historical or not, there's a lot of water on the Kuban map for it to fulfill it's natural role.

out of curiosity: did they carry torps?

[PatrickAWlson]

57 minutes ago, Asgar said:

out of curiosity: did they carry torps?

 

Honestly not sure.  I don't think do - at least not the Ju88C.  I think they used the Ju88A for torpedo runs.  From what I know (which is admittedly minimal) the Ju88C was used for train busting in the east.  In the west it was used for maritime patrols both to destroy shipping and as a fighter to kill enemy maritime aircraft.  Sine it did that in the west I don't think it's a stretch to make the unit do that in Kuban.

[Juri_JS]

4 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Honestly not sure.  I don't think do - at least not the Ju88C.  I think they used the Ju88A for torpedo runs.  From what I know (which is admittedly minimal) the Ju88C was used for train busting in the east.  In the west it was used for maritime patrols both to destroy shipping and as a fighter to kill enemy maritime aircraft.  Sine it did that in the west I don't think it's a stretch to make the unit do that in Kuban.

Occasionally Ju-88Cs in the east also flew anti-shipping missions, for example 1942 against ships on the Volga and against coastal shipping in the Black Sea region.

[Lusekofte]

It is a flying death trap, no matter how you fly it, it will not end well. 

Ofcource I will be all over it  , my kind of job

[=621=Samikatz]

Flying disadvantaged planes is really fun, anyway. When you fully expect to get swatted out of the sky, getting into and out of combat alive feels like a huge achievement

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Flying disadvantaged planes is really fun, anyway. When you fully expect to get swatted out of the sky, getting into and out of combat alive feels like a huge achievement

 

Yes. I think a lot of us matured over our time flying flight sims... you start out wanting the cutting edge fighter from the end of the war with all the advantages... then you discover the satisfaction of coming out the other side when one was at a disadvantage... and you begin to look for interesting planes instead of 'good' ones.

[Aurora_Stealth]

On 6/23/2021 at 5:18 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

Historical or not, there's a lot of water on the Kuban map for it to fulfill it's natural role.

 

When I read this, my ridiculous mind said: 'It's natural role being shot down and sinking to the bottom of the sea.'

[PatrickAWlson]

10 hours ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

When I read this, my ridiculous mind said: 'It's natural role being shot down and sinking to the bottom of the sea.'

 

Aren't "Refly" buttons a wonderful thing?

[migmadmarine]

On 6/22/2021 at 8:05 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

 

You can ride to your death in comfort as opposed to those nasty, cramped 109s.  You will have company too.

 

This is where mission design does not have to meet real life.  I just make the missions such that it's a straight shot from the coast and the ships are there.  There are also intercept missions where you can have the Ju88 intercepting A20s and the like.

Honestly, would love to have an option for maritime patrols rather than this. Doesn't need to be a 4 hour patrol, but if you could do like a north end and south end waypoints maybe 15 min apart, and the ships spawning somewhere along the route, would make a bit more variety than the above. 

[PatrickAWlson]

29 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Honestly, would love to have an option for maritime patrols rather than this. Doesn't need to be a 4 hour patrol, but if you could do like a north end and south end waypoints maybe 15 min apart, and the ships spawning somewhere along the route, would make a bit more variety than the above. 

 

You are making me think ... and my head hurts when I do that  .  I have wanted to make a ground attack free hunt for a very long time now, but I have never managed to overcome the mission generation obstacles.  

 

This would be a very significant change in PWCG mission making.  Currently, an attack profile is fly out, attack something, and fly back.  In many cases that works very well.  If there is a battle in progress then you know about where it is.  if you're hitting a bridge or railway station, have at it.

 

So how would a free hunt ground attack work?  It definitely works best if a human is leading the flight.  

1. Flight path is fly to an area.  What you do after that is up to you.

- If no encounters, a return waypoint will be triggered after some time.

2. Add several targets in the target area.  These would be targets of the appropriate type - train, shipping, trucks.  Stuff you have to hunt for.

- These units are enabled right away, so they are moving when the mission begins.  You will have no idea where they are.

- How to find them?  Follow roads, rail lines, or carve circles in the air above water.

3. If you encounter one of the designated target types, trigger:

- An attack MCU to attack those specific units

- A stop attack timer as well as the bingo timer to end the attack.

- When the attack is over the return waypoint triggers and you go home, ending the patrol.

 

The downer is that the AI can't follow a road or rail lines. it's just not smart enough.  I could make it fly between points like bridges and rail stations, but that would take it in a direct line, not along a road.  A second issue is that it would require more traffic, enabled right at mission start, in order to give the player a chance to encounter something.  I could also foresee a lot of railway accidents.

 

Anyhow, that would probably be a lot more interesting than the current "arrive and your target is there".  And related to the topic - this is exactly the mission type the Ju88C was made for.

[Denum]

I'm super excited for the C6 and Mossie.

 

I just can't pick which one I want more right now.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Very excited and can’t wait this plane..

so I am curious about differences in the cockpit… Maybe new and more powerful engines are available?

We will see ???

[Asgar]

On 6/24/2021 at 11:07 PM, Denum said:

I'm super excited for the C6 and Mossie.

 

I just can't pick which one I want more right now.

EASY....the 410 ?

[sevenless]

Interested to see how much the C6 will differ from the C4 which is in CLOD. Oh, and we need some Blenheims, Whimpys and Beaufighters as well...:-)

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by sevenless

[Pict]

10 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Interested to see how much the C6 will differ from the C4 which is in CLOD.

 

EASY...the BOX version runs on avgas not steam, so at the very least it loads faster 

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Looks like that C4 in the YouTube vid carries a chainsaw, I bought desert wings to try the 88 out

(now I have to get off my arse and learn how to fly again)

[Luftschiff]

A bomb-less Bf110 for people who do not, under any circumstances, want to have to return to base.

 

 

I'll fly it.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Luftschiff

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:14 AM, sevenless said:

Interested to see how much the C6 will differ from the C4 which is in CLOD. Oh, and we need some Blenheims, Whimpys and Beaufighters as well...:-)

 

 

more powerfull engines and MG81 instead of MG15 for the reargunners.

[Swing]

The engines of the C6 are the same as the A4 : Jumo 211 J V12 (1410 HP)

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, Swing said:

The engines of the C6 are the same as the A4 : Jumo 211 J V12 (1410 HP)

 

The comparison was C-4 to C-6... so Jumo 221G or Jumo 221F

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

lets say a C-6 has ~200HP/engine more power than a C-4

[Avimimus]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:54 PM, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

lets say a C-6 has ~200HP/engine more power than a C-4

 

 I think it is more like ~160 HP (or rather PS)

[Enceladus828]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:27 AM, Pict said:

 

EASY...the BOX version runs on avgas not steam, so at the very least it loads faster 

I'm sorry that you're having problems with Steam, Pict, but please don't trash games just because they run on Steam.

 

Oh, and the load-up time for both games is basically the same ?

[Pict]

4 hours ago, Enceladus said:

I'm sorry that you're having problems with Steam, Pict, but please don't trash games just because they run on Steam.

 

Oh, and the load-up time for both games is basically the same ?

 

You might want to sue whoever it was that surgicaly removed your sense of humor, I reckon you'd have a solid case 

 

So just to be clear, as you seem to stuggle with understanding just about everything I have to say, I'm not trashing any game. 

 

The load up times probably™ are the same, other than for me I would have to start steam*, then CLoD*, so if it runs on steam it will always take longer to run than if it didn't. This I figured was so obvious that it didn't need explaining. Had I explained that, it would have killed the joke. Made no difference in the long run as you killed it anyhow.

 

Avgas was just an innocent bystander in all of this, do you need that part explained too?

 

* I don't have either, but I did purchase CLoD, and never used it as I didn't realize that it required steam to run. So I gave it away.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Pict

[Grobby]

Ju88 C6 

During mission "Cover U488"

The MG FF stopped firing with 120 rounds left (2x60 on counter)

Any reason ?

Any way to "reload" it?

When I push middle mouse button to reload all weapons the conter counts One Less?

Thx for advise