P-40F engine mod

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

How about adding the merlin as a P-40 engine mod to allow for simulation of the P-40F? or heck how about a whole other collector plane with P-40F, K and N variants? The  merlin could be added just as an engine mod to change the performance of the plane and use the same model as the E. This wouldn't bother me as much but I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to simply add an alternate model without the dorsal nose scoop.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I would buy if it performed somewhat decent.

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

Merlin makes about the same power as the Allison but it would do so up to 20,000 ft rather than 14-15,000 like the Allison with the single stage supercharger. P-40's with altitude are very capable.

 

[Dakpilot]

P-40F/L ran into directional stability issues a fuselage fillet was tried but not deemed adequate majority of production a/c had fuselage extended about two feet. The Allison K model with slightly more power also had the extended fuselage which was considered necessary to counter the extra power. 

 

I think a few F models were sent as lend lease to soviets but used in PVO regiments (from memory) 

 

It would be a lot of work to do a Merlin P-40 properly 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

Yes, you are correct there were fuselage changes after the E and to do a proper F would require more work which is why i was suggesting just adding the engine mod to the E model we already have and adjust performance values to simulate an F. This would be more practical and less of a hassle and imo would enhance the P-40 in game and provide more options for servers/players.

 

[Pict]

3 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

I think a few F models were sent as lend lease to soviets but used in PVO regiments (from memory)

 

This is probably the first consideration when looking to add a new type from an existing aircraft at least from the developers point of view, ie., is there a map in IL2BOX that it historically flew on?

 

From what I've seen on this excellent website dedicated to lend lease to the Soviet Union, the P-40F was the only version they didn't get. However, they did get the P-40L, which was also sported the Merlin.

 

Quote

In all, the USSR received 247 P40C (Tomahawk IIB) and 2,178 P-40E, -K, -L, and -N aircraft from 1941 through 1944, which ranks this type in fourth position (after the P-39, Hurricane, and P-63) among foreign aircraft delivered to the Soviet Union [1]. Deliveries were made by year in the following quantities: 1941-230 Tomahawks and 15 P-40E; 1942-17 Tomahawks and 487 P-40E, E-1, K, and L; 1943-939 P-40E-1, K, L, M, and N; 1944-446 primarily P-40M and N [2].

 

https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/the-p-40-in-soviet-aviation/

 

===============

 

I think a Klimov conversion to the P-40E would be good too.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Pict

[HBPencil]

I'm pretty sure the devs have said they won't go back and add mods which change the appearance of the aircraft, which would be necessary for both the external and cockpit models to change an E to an F (i.e. no carb scoop, different shaped rad cowling and appropriate engine dials and supercharger controls in the cockpit).
I'd like to see more P-40s added, so I wonder if the M or N would fit with the current maps we have, as they also flew in many other theaters so might be useful and some future expansion.

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

The gauges in the F are pretty much the same (still uses a manifold pressure gauge like in the E) even the layout is pretty much the same I believe. Like I said they could just add the mod and leave the cosmetic stuff alone, or add a cosmetic mod to the model to remove the scoop.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

[Denum]

I'd buy it.

 

I wish the current P40 wasn't so restricted though 

[Pict]

3 hours ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

Like I said they could just add the mod and leave the cosmetic stuff alone, or add a cosmetic mod to the model to remove the scoop.

 

Maybe they could, but would they?

 

Or better yet...Why would they? After years of getting everything else as close to spot on as possible, avoiding many desired additions, not least the PTO, for lack of data required to reach the high standards set by themselves.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Pict

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Pict said:

Maybe they could, but would they?

 

Or better yet...Why would they? After years of getting everything else as close to spot on as possible, avoiding many desired additions, not least the PTO, for lack of data required to reach the high standards set by themselves.

 

+1 - there is no way in the world they are going to take that many shortcuts to introduce a new plane as "just a mod." If/when a P-40F comes, it'll be a brand-new, standalone plane.

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

+1 - there is no way in the world they are going to take that many shortcuts to introduce a new plane as "just a mod." If/when a P-40F comes, it'll be a brand-new, standalone plane.

Luke, I really don't want to be rude or picky, so please take it as a kind of innocent curiosity on my side, but as long as ammo is historically incorrect and engine timers are off their historical limits, do you really think that gauges and outside shapes "as close to spot on as possible" really matter? Just asking because most of the time I'm sitting in a cockpit pulling the trigger and hearing my engine die and not bothering about the rest. My fault?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

16 hours ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

Merlin makes about the same power as the Allison but it would do so up to 20,000 ft rather than 14-15,000 like the Allison with the single stage supercharger. P-40's with altitude are very capable.

 

It had higher power ratings approved for longer time compared to our early V-1710-39 limits.


Currently for the P-40E in game we have 1150 HP for 2 minutes and 1050 HP for 5 minutes.
 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, sniperton said:

as long as ammo is historically incorrect and engine timers are off their historical limits, do you really think that gauges and outside shapes "as close to spot on as possible" really matter?

 

Yes, yes they do. Otherwise, where does it stop? The Yak-9T is "just" a mod of the Yak-9, the Yak-9 is just a mod of the Yak-7, the La-5FN is just a mod of the La-5, the P-47D-28 is just a mod of the P-47D-22, etc. With all of the changes between the P-40E and the F, it would be flat-out absurd to just slap the F model into the game as a mod.

Edited June 18, 2021 by LukeFF

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

7 hours ago, sniperton said:

Luke, I really don't want to be rude or picky, so please take it as a kind of innocent curiosity on my side, but as long as ammo is historically incorrect and engine timers are off their historical limits, do you really think that gauges and outside shapes "as close to spot on as possible" really matter? Just asking because most of the time I'm sitting in a cockpit pulling the trigger and hearing my engine die and not bothering about the rest. My fault?

This exactly. They're willing to add more planes to a game that is making an attempt at realism and while its a good one its far from realistic in many many ways which are not as high a priority for them so why not suggest something like this? To be honest I'd rather see them fix the issues with the core game so I can go back to buying multiple copies of stuff from them. While they're at it if they made a P-40F as a whole collector plane great or even as a north African module, but because everything I read from the devs is "lack of resources" or "behind schedule" I figured I'd throw something easy out there. With all the other concessions I make with the game I could deal with flying a P-40E model with merlin ratings and maybe a cosmetic change.

[Dakpilot]

I think you would have been better off advocating for a short tail K version with uprated Allison, not even sure they were sent as LL.

 

the F/L is just a non starter for many reasons. 

 

People would not have accepted an F/L hack even in IL-2 1946 mod version

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[354thFG_Panda_]

I have posted this in other p40 threads but heres the P40K engine limits which are fairly nice compared to the restrictive E variant we have. If someone who knows the p40 series very well could educate us on the differences on the p40E to K it would be much appreciated. As far as I can tell its an uprated engine and a tail fillet. For this it would make sense to have it as a mod to make the p40E more appealing like the hurricane with its many mods. It would also allow it to stay more competitive across a longer time frame instead of just 1941 planes to face. Other p40s would be much better off as planes in an expansion or collectors which stand on themselves.

Edited June 18, 2021 by LR.-Astra-theRedPanda

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, LR.-Astra-theRedPanda said:

If someone who knows the p40 series very well could educate us on the differences on the p40E to K it would be much appreciated.

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1999/09/stuff_eng_p40.htm

 

• P-40E - as stated above, it was identical to the D-version except for six wing-mounted machine guns.

• Kittyhawk Mk. I - even the British recognised the new-generation P-40 as an entirely new aircraft, designating it Kittyhawk.

  The first 20 were delivered to P-40D specifications, remaining ones being identical to P-40Es with exception of British equipment such as radio installation. The designation Kittyhawk Mk. IA was used for the latter to distinguish between these two variants. An aircraft of this batch, NZ3009, is a photographic subject of the In Detail article in this issue. Totally Britain received ca. 1500 Mk. Is.

  The American designation P-40E-1 was adopted to identify the 1500 Kittyhawk Mk. IAs shipped to Britain early in the Lend-Lease program to distinguish their British equipment from those in the US service. Many were actually retained for US service, identifiable by their British-style camouflage.

 

• P-40F - In USAF service the type received the name Warhawk. The engine was exchanged once more, this time to the vastly superior Roll-Royce Merlin 28 (later Packard Merlin V-1650-1) with a single-stage supercharger built into the P-40D airframe . With the new engine the carburettor air intake on top of the cowling was removed.
  
  The first 699 production aircraft were designated only P-40F, after which the subtype numbers were introduced to keep track of modification introduced directly in production. The "dash numbers" were assigned according to the system: -1, -5, -10, -15, -20 and so on, with interval of 5. Thus the first P-40Fs were retroactively treated as P-40F-1, and subsequent modifications were designated P-40F-5, P-40F-10, P-40F-15, P-40F-20. Actually the official designations carried an additional suffix -CU indicating Curtiss production facilities, like P-40F-10-CU, but we'll omit it here for clarity.
  
  The P-40F-5 and later production models had the rear fuselage lengthened with over 2 feet to improve directional stability. Of note is that only fin and rudder were moved back, the horizontal tailplane remained in the same position.

 

• P-40G - name given to 44 existing airframes retrofitted in summer 1941 with wings from Tomahawk Mk. IIA and consequently armed with only four small-calibre guns. Sixteen were shipped to Soviet Union, the rest being used in the US for training duties.

• P-40H, P-40I, P-40J - designation never used. The P-40J was a projected P-40E with supercharger, but the idea was dropped at an early stage.

• P-40K - originally planned as final production variant. Although a P-40F proved a superior machine due to the installation of the Merlin engine, the Allison-powered versions were still produced because of the limited supply of the Merlins. The P-40K was powered by the new V-1710-73.
  
  The first production machine rolled off in August 1942. Early production K models were similar in shape to P-40E, but the dorsal fin was added to improve the stability with the new engine. From the P-40K-10 series the problem was solved by adapting the long rear fuselage of the P-40F.

[354thFG_Panda_]

I guess that's enough to make it a stand alone collector plane too. Just like 9 and 9T

Edited June 18, 2021 by LR.-Astra-theRedPanda

[BlitzPig_EL]

A much simpler solution exists.  Simply give the current P40 E the power, durability, and engine limits actually used by the operators of the type that took them into combat in every theater they operated in.

Edited June 20, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

A much simpler solution exists.  Simply give the current P40 E the power, durability, and engine limits actually used by the operators of the type that took them into combat in every theater they operated in.

 

A fix as simple as introducing a modifier (maybe "100 octane fuel)", if you'd also like to keep the soviet operational specs for campaign resons.

 

The P-40 is in dire need of some more attention. That includes having a Tomahawk in BoX and another Kittyhawk (be it either a later Allison or a Merlin variant). IL-2'46 kind of went that way by having a P-40M (and Tomahawks).

I believe there hasn't been a "stock" Merlin P-40 in any game out there yet...

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

A fix as simple as introducing a modifier (maybe "100 octane fuel)", if you'd also like to keep the soviet operational specs for campaign resons.

 

The P-40 is in dire need of some more attention. That includes having a Tomahawk in BoX and another Kittyhawk (be it either a later Allison or a Merlin variant). IL-2'46 kind of went that way by having a P-40M (and Tomahawks).

I believe there hasn't been a "stock" Merlin P-40 in any game out there yet...

 

This is a misconception that spread from an original erroneous post and everyone went along with it. We already have 100 octane fuel accounted for in the engine specifications, always was the case for Lend Lease planes, for 90 octane fuel the limits are stricter, along the lines of our continuous mode being take off mode and it's max continuous being in the low 30"s.

 

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

A much simpler solution exists.  Simply give the current P40 E the power, durability, and engine limits actually used by the operators of the type that took them into combat in every theater they operated in.

Found this image on ww2aircraftperformance section of the Kittyhawk Mk I. Having a 5 limit regime on 46" rather than 42" as we have currently would help a bit on the usability of the plane.

Also at the bottom you can see the limits with 90 octane fuel:

[Gambit21]

10 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

A much simpler solution exists.  Simply give the current P40 E the power, durability, and engine limits actually used by the operators of the type that took them into combat in every theater they operated in.

 

This

 

[BMA_FlyingShark]

On 6/20/2021 at 3:25 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

A much simpler solution exists.  Simply give the current P40 E the power, durability, and engine limits actually used by the operators of the type that took them into combat in every theater they operated in.

From me too, a big "This".

 

Have a nice day.