=RS=Haart Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, pocketshaver said: disparity is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing more, nothing less. What we have is folks who demand that the ammunition in question, 50 BMG AP, should behave like german or russian AP/API and have a damage to the flight model similar to russian and german HE ammunition,,,, some feel it should duplicate german and soviet 13mm machine guns, others give the feel they want it to mimic the abilities of 20mm ap/he. Alot of the issues springs from careful cherry picking of historical anecdotes, and carefully cherry picked testing that happened after the war. BUT what is overlooked is ANYTHING that disproves their view point. ln the SINGLE PLAYER game, 50 BMG AP can be a magic bullet, and a person can gun down 5 A-20B with a p40 using 2100 rounds to do so... YES i missed with the deflection shots, but when i am hovering by matching speed with the A-20B and going to short range, and pumping the wings and engines till engines explode into flames.. flying close enough that a few times i had to dodge crewmen BAILING OUT BEFORE they opened chutes.... Then an hour later needing 2000 rounds to kill TWO A-20B.... its realistic. Next the plane damage model.... its odd how the fueselage snaps right on the armor plate inside at the back of the fuel tank. every time.... or that EVERY air collision in a soviet fighter snaps one wing off at the wing gun, and cracks the other wing in the same spot.... sometimes rips the rear off... but yet the plane can EASILY be controlled with joy stick to a slow drop and happy ejection. While on most 109/190 collisions the plane goes into a spin that is instantly pilot nullifying to the point you cant eject. What we're pointing out is the fact that the ammunition, which is the practice ammunition ironically and historically incorrect for the aircraft to be armed with, is underperforming in comparison to the tests at the time like those that Yak Panther have linked, especially when versing an enemy with a brain and cognitive reasoning skills. As far as German 13mm AP goes to my understanding it shouldn't behave better because it has a lower velocity (750m/s for 131 vs 890m/s for M2 Ball) the fact it has HE rounds when historically HE 13mm was given up for an API round is insulting as we've been told by the devs that API is not coming yet is a gross inaccuracy for a simulation, ideally it should only have AP. However the same could be said for the Russian belts for the UBs, they ought to have an API round in their belt as well instead of a HE and AP belt. Your claims prove nothing, as what we're testing here is the impact of the round verses their intended target, Luftwaffe aircraft, for the last several messages all you've done is compare the impacts and kills with allied aircraft, my suggestion to you would be to change your target to something like a HE-111 or better yet a 109G6/14. Better still, join Finnish or Combat Box on the allied side when it's populated and see how well it stacks up to your expectation. Otherwise, keep the waffling to yourself please. [edited] Edited July 4, 2021 by SYN_Haashashin 1 2
Angry_Kitten Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, =RS=Haart said: What we're pointing out is the fact that the ammunition, which is the practice ammunition ironically and historically incorrect for the aircraft to be armed with, is underperforming in comparison to the tests at the time like those that Yak Panther have linked, especially when versing an enemy with a brain and cognitive reasoning skills. As far as German 13mm AP goes to my understanding it shouldn't behave better because it has a lower velocity (750m/s for 131 vs 890m/s for M2 Ball) the fact it has HE rounds when historically HE 13mm was given up for an API round is insulting as we've been told by the devs that API is not coming yet is a gross inaccuracy for a simulation, ideally it should only have AP. However the same could be said for the Russian belts for the UBs, they ought to have an API round in their belt as well instead of a HE and AP belt. Your claims prove nothing, as what we're testing here is the impact of the round verses their intended target, Luftwaffe aircraft, for the last several messages all you've done is compare the impacts and kills with allied aircraft, my suggestion to you would be to change your target to something like a HE-111 or better yet a 109G6/14. Better still, join Finnish or Combat Box on the allied side when it's populated and see how well it stacks up to your expectation. Otherwise, keep the waffling to yourself please. [Edited] [Edited] just did two flights with the la 5n, used the custom belt option to do one with magic HE and one with only AP.. Guess what, both performed about the same. Both made magic puffs on impact, both made engines flame. HE did it with fewer hits of course, but big fireball when engine pods blew Edited July 4, 2021 by SYN_Haashashin Answer to edited part.
=RS=Haart Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, pocketshaver said: is the monkey based insult meme supposed to be racially inspired or just inspired by your own bias to the fact that you and your "improve the 50 cal AP group be acting like monkeys with an empty soda bottle?" just did two flights with the la 5n, used the custom belt option to do one with magic HE and one with only AP.. Guess what, both performed about the same. Both made magic puffs on impact, both made engines flame. HE did it with fewer hits of course, but big fireball when engine pods blew The point is, so far you've done nothing but waffle on, you post no data, only inferences. We post technical data from legitimate real world tests versus in game tests, you dispute it on a "feeling", so you tell me? I could say I just flew the BF110G2 with the 37mm and scored an ace in a flight against a squadron of 262s but that statement means nothing without proof/data. [edited] Edited July 4, 2021 by SYN_Haashashin
CountZero Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) I look at virtual pilots stats for airplanes that have only .50gun (has only AP ammo) and compare how many bulets per down airplane it takes to other airplanes with AP+HE+AP or HE+AP+HE ammo belt, and with 1000s of airplanes shoot down in last Q2, it shows that if you have fully AP belt you need up to 10x more bullets to shoot down enemy airplanes then you need if you have combo of AP+HE of same cal. And only americans decided that its good to have this bad ammo belt combo, making it so mutch harder for their pilots, some german spys probably infiltrated their chain of comand and sabotaged their .50 HE tests, because insted 6 or 8 .50 full of only AP they could have 2 of them but with AP+HE mix and would do mutch better in this game, on top would save on extra weight by removing guns that dont do mutch LOL Solution for this error in game with AP vs HE HMG ammo is simple, just make american airplanes belt AP+HE+AP like its on vvs airplanes (or remove clearly OP HE ammo from other HMG belts, and we could have only AP HMG for all nations when this simple airplane DM is so broken when interacts with HE compared to AP ammo after 4.005) , 1/3 is HE to make things normal insted this what we have now where american airplanes are at big disadvantage because game dont simulate ammo types historicly with simple airplane DM game have. Edited July 4, 2021 by CountZero 2 6
Angry_Kitten Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 3 hours ago, CountZero said: I look at virtual pilots stats for airplanes that have only .50gun (has only AP ammo) and compare how many bulets per down airplane it takes to other airplanes with AP+HE+AP or HE+AP+HE ammo belt, and with 1000s of airplanes shoot down in last Q2, it shows that if you have fully AP belt you need up to 10x more bullets to shoot down enemy airplanes then you need if you have combo of AP+HE of same cal. And only americans decided that its good to have this bad ammo belt combo, making it so mutch harder for their pilots, some german spys probably infiltrated their chain of comand and sabotaged their .50 HE tests, because insted 6 or 8 .50 full of only AP they could have 2 of them but with AP+HE mix and would do mutch better in this game, on top would save on extra weight by removing guns that dont do mutch LOL Solution for this error in game with AP vs HE HMG ammo is simple, just make american airplanes belt AP+HE+AP like its on vvs airplanes (or remove clearly OP HE ammo from other HMG belts, and we could have only AP HMG for all nations when this simple airplane DM is so broken when interacts with HE compared to AP ammo after 4.005) , 1/3 is HE to make things normal insted this what we have now where american airplanes are at big disadvantage because game dont simulate ammo types historicly with simple airplane DM game have. those stats are useless because no one can discern how many bullets hit the target planes in question. cliffs of dover blitz will tell you the basic number of shots fired, AND the number of calculated hits you got for each plane. THAT is how you get test results that are valid. FAR to many people on this thread believe that 6 50 AP hits to a 109 wing should make the 109 twirl into the ground with one wing gone. NO one on this thread seems to understand that 50 AP does as well or as poorly as machine gun ammunition in other planes when you AIM. in fact the 50 bmg does BETTER then the soviet AP does when you switch to AP only belts.... WHEN you aim both of them at critical things like engine pods. oh yeah there i go again, talking about actual AIMING just like REAL pilots do..... 3 2
-SF-Disarray Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: those stats are useless because no one can discern how many bullets hit the target planes in question. cliffs of dover blitz will tell you the basic number of shots fired, AND the number of calculated hits you got for each plane. THAT is how you get test results that are valid. FAR to many people on this thread believe that 6 50 AP hits to a 109 wing should make the 109 twirl into the ground with one wing gone. NO one on this thread seems to understand that 50 AP does as well or as poorly as machine gun ammunition in other planes when you AIM. in fact the 50 bmg does BETTER then the soviet AP does when you switch to AP only belts.... WHEN you aim both of them at critical things like engine pods. oh yeah there i go again, talking about actual AIMING just like REAL pilots do..... Is it hard being this wrong consistently? It looks like a lot of work. Just for your own information, the number of hits are recorded. That is how we know it takes more hits to down a plane with AP only rounds, like a stupidly large amount more. Here I'll show you an example: Look at all that tasty data. The number of shots fired. The number of hits broken down by caliber and type. My, my, all this data. And all of this is ripped right out of the server logs so it is only the hits that the game says happened and counted, no lag distortions or netcode issues to corrupt data. Granted this is just one sortie picked at random from FvP statistics. Here we have the average number of hits it takes for a 47 to kill a plane: Again from FvP statistics and involving only those kills where the target was killed as a result of damage from one plane. For comparison here is the same data block for the G-14 So, circling back to my original question, is it hard being this consistently wrong? And, also, what was that you were saying about wings being basically empty a page ago? I'm supper curious about that, not that I expect to get an answer from you on that seeing as you are fantastically wrong. 1
Denum Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 Perhaps we need a small concession, I feel that people maybe getting a bit... Exasperated here. I'm off to enjoy the AP mod for a bit and then flying online. Happy 4th gents. Don't put your fingers where you wouldn't put your Shillelagh. 1
Raptorattacker Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 Just now, Denum said: Don't put your fingers where you wouldn't put your Shillelagh.
ACG_Cass Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 1 hour ago, pocketshaver said: FAR to many people on this thread believe that 6 50 AP hits to a 109 wing should make the 109 twirl into the ground with one wing gone. No one is saying this. Stop saying people are saying this. 1 12
354thFG_Panda_ Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, pocketshaver said: those stats are useless because no one can discern how many bullets hit the target planes in question. cliffs of dover blitz will tell you the basic number of shots fired, AND the number of calculated hits you got for each plane. THAT is how you get test results that are valid. FAR to many people on this thread believe that 6 50 AP hits to a 109 wing should make the 109 twirl into the ground with one wing gone. NO one on this thread seems to understand that 50 AP does as well or as poorly as machine gun ammunition in other planes when you AIM. in fact the 50 bmg does BETTER then the soviet AP does when you switch to AP only belts.... WHEN you aim both of them at critical things like engine pods. oh yeah there i go again, talking about actual AIMING just like REAL pilots do..... Could you ELABORATE further on the Soviet AP only (La5 TESTING RIGHT?) Vs the 50 AP and how you CAME to that CONCLUSION................,,,,,,,........... The former MUCH more RELIABLE than the latter for DOWNING aircraft due to the gun placement, concentration and its ability to PENETRATE/saw off parts like the TAIL................. It is VERY hard to see how the OPPOSITE is TRUE when the 50bmg REQUIRE on point convergence and are MODELLED with very LITTLE spread REDUCING the chance to hit and with the FACTS & FIGURES Yak Panther posted earlier the numbers for mass, drag and penetration are OFF........ Maybe if you READ through PROPERLY with an OPEN mind and payed ATTENTION to what many have been SAYING, instead of CREATING a STRAW MAN to consistently MOCK, you will realise that they have a BIG PROBLEM with how AP as a WHOLE is MODELLED in this SIMULATION..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................!;'++_+£!)(";!_)+*;(£)#+-;_+_+;£;(#!#(#-;"¢¢^°`÷=ע׶∆`✓ Edited July 4, 2021 by LR.theRedPanda 3 4
Angry_Kitten Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 4 hours ago, -SF-Disarray said: Is it hard being this wrong consistently? It looks like a lot of work. Just for your own information, the number of hits are recorded. That is how we know it takes more hits to down a plane with AP only rounds, like a stupidly large amount more. Here I'll show you an example: Look at all that tasty data. The number of shots fired. The number of hits broken down by caliber and type. My, my, all this data. And all of this is ripped right out of the server logs so it is only the hits that the game says happened and counted, no lag distortions or netcode issues to corrupt data. Granted this is just one sortie picked at random from FvP statistics. Here we have the average number of hits it takes for a 47 to kill a plane: Again from FvP statistics and involving only those kills where the target was killed as a result of damage from one plane. For comparison here is the same data block for the G-14 So, circling back to my original question, is it hard being this consistently wrong? And, also, what was that you were saying about wings being basically empty a page ago? I'm supper curious about that, not that I expect to get an answer from you on that seeing as you are fantastically wrong. this is pretty damn consistent with what happens in SINGLE PLAYER to kill something... NOT sure what the two planes from the first box of data were fighting, but i have found that when flying a P-40 and using the mighty 50s.... and AIMING..... It can easily take 50-70 rounds to take an engine on a B25 or A-20B out. It may not turn into a fire ball but it will create a 4 km long smoke trail i can see from 10 km. TWO engines in that same condition will give the plane in question perhaps 10 minutes of flight time before i see parachutes in the air. Instant kill? no, but it IS a kill. The issue that I see with the top box of data for 50 BMG AP versus Hispano 20mm is this. Are you making your argument/defense of view point based solely by cherry picking 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 32 rounds of Hispano AP or against 21 rounds of Hispano HE ammunition Or are you simply going with SCIENTIFIC fact and going "This data supports my dispute as it should NOT take 59 rounds of 50 AP to down a plane when an english plane armed with a hispano 20mm firing a HE/AP mix needed 53 rounds to kill a plane?" and as their is no option that i have seen that lets you limit the hispano to a single cartridge, ie he or ap only.... only excrement would compare 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 21 rounds of HE Hispano 20mm and completely toss out 32 rounds of AP being slammed on target. And as ALWAYS no one will say WHAT was hit. yeah, its impressive to blow the wing off a 109 in videos, but that takes alot more shots to do then simply blowing the cockpit to hell. If the AI can fire a single round of 50 AP at me when im in a plane, and it takes my engine, oil, coolant, fuel out. Why cant anyone online do the same thing 1
354thFG_Panda_ Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: this is pretty damn consistent with what happens in SINGLE PLAYER to kill something... NOT sure what the two planes from the first box of data were fighting, but i have found that when flying a P-40 and using the mighty 50s.... and AIMING..... It can easily take 50-70 rounds to take an engine on a B25 or A-20B out. It may not turn into a fire ball but it will create a 4 km long smoke trail i can see from 10 km. TWO engines in that same condition will give the plane in question perhaps 10 minutes of flight time before i see parachutes in the air. Instant kill? no, but it IS a kill. The issue that I see with the top box of data for 50 BMG AP versus Hispano 20mm is this. Are you making your argument/defense of view point based solely by cherry picking 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 32 rounds of Hispano AP or against 21 rounds of Hispano HE ammunition Or are you simply going with SCIENTIFIC fact and going "This data supports my dispute as it should NOT take 59 rounds of 50 AP to down a plane when an english plane armed with a hispano 20mm firing a HE/AP mix needed 53 rounds to kill a plane?" and as their is no option that i have seen that lets you limit the hispano to a single cartridge, ie he or ap only.... only excrement would compare 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 21 rounds of HE Hispano 20mm and completely toss out 32 rounds of AP being slammed on target. And as ALWAYS no one will say WHAT was hit. yeah, its impressive to blow the wing off a 109 in videos, but that takes alot more shots to do then simply blowing the cockpit to hell. If the AI can fire a single round of 50 AP at me when im in a plane, and it takes my engine, oil, coolant, fuel out. Why cant anyone online do the same thing YOU have only PROVED my POINT..... CHERRY PICKING and CLAIMING.. WHERE is your EVIDENCE? Edited July 4, 2021 by LR.theRedPanda 4
-SF-Disarray Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 1 hour ago, pocketshaver said: this is pretty damn consistent with what happens in SINGLE PLAYER to kill something... NOT sure what the two planes from the first box of data were fighting, but i have found that when flying a P-40 and using the mighty 50s.... and AIMING..... It can easily take 50-70 rounds to take an engine on a B25 or A-20B out. It may not turn into a fire ball but it will create a 4 km long smoke trail i can see from 10 km. TWO engines in that same condition will give the plane in question perhaps 10 minutes of flight time before i see parachutes in the air. Instant kill? no, but it IS a kill. The issue that I see with the top box of data for 50 BMG AP versus Hispano 20mm is this. Are you making your argument/defense of view point based solely by cherry picking 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 32 rounds of Hispano AP or against 21 rounds of Hispano HE ammunition Or are you simply going with SCIENTIFIC fact and going "This data supports my dispute as it should NOT take 59 rounds of 50 AP to down a plane when an english plane armed with a hispano 20mm firing a HE/AP mix needed 53 rounds to kill a plane?" and as their is no option that i have seen that lets you limit the hispano to a single cartridge, ie he or ap only.... only excrement would compare 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 21 rounds of HE Hispano 20mm and completely toss out 32 rounds of AP being slammed on target. And as ALWAYS no one will say WHAT was hit. yeah, its impressive to blow the wing off a 109 in videos, but that takes alot more shots to do then simply blowing the cockpit to hell. If the AI can fire a single round of 50 AP at me when im in a plane, and it takes my engine, oil, coolant, fuel out. Why cant anyone online do the same thing I was only pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the 'you aren't counting the number of hits.' We are counting the number of hits. So why don't you go find a clue, and then come back with something productive to say. 1
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 It is amusing that the guy who has 0.4% accuracy in singleplayer is lecturing others that they need to aim better. 1 2
-332FG-JP122 Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 On 6/29/2021 at 12:34 AM, pocketshaver said: they only do me in in the quick match setup. campaign i can hold my own just fine for some reason. Still best to obliterate them the first second i can. But i have NO problem whatever doing a ballet dance with them, doing nothing but endless loops, rolls, etc and never getting hit by them,,,, or hitting them.. in the quick match system. the single player aspect of the games doesnt reflect multiplayer in the slightest. the fact of the matter is the usa dropped the all ap ammo belt and in 1943 switched to a full api apit ammo belt 1
BCI-Nazgul Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 So far the only thing we've conclusively proven in this thread is: 1. No one really knows how the parameter files actually work. That is not surprising since we don't have the actual computer code that says what calculations are performed with the parameters. 2. Pocketshaver doesn't understand math or basic logic. He seems to forget we are talking about 3x - 4x the number of AP rounds hitting when US planes are concerned vs. a 1 to 1 comparison.
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, BCI-Nazgul said: So far the only thing we've conclusively proven in this thread is: 1. No one really knows how the parameter files actually work. That is not surprising since we don't have the actual computer code that says what calculations are performed with the parameters. 2. Pocketshaver doesn't understand math or basic logic. He seems to forget we are talking about 3x - 4x the number of AP rounds hitting when US planes are concerned vs. a 1 to 1 comparison. No the whiny crappers demanding the 50 AP be changed in damage output are REFUSING and DELIBERATELY cherry picking and IGNORING that they have no leg to stand upon when they show SERVER STATISTICS THAT DUPLICATE WHAT HAPPENS IN SINGLE PLAYER AND are delighted to ignore the AP rounds in a mixed belt containing HE and AP from german and soviet machine guns. and claim that its WRONG that 59 rounds of AP should be as powerful as 32 rounds of HE from a Hispano TWENTY MM cannon. You freaking morons,,,, I thought that someone ELSE would note that massive problems in those server statistics.... but hey, when the cherry picked data is being used to lie or cheat your agenda along..... screw it all. To many of you claim the AP needs to be fixed to create REALISM.... well when you demand that 59 rounds of 50 AP needs to duplicate the same damage output to an enemy plane as 32 rounds of 20 mm HE rounds.... let alone 31 rounds of 20 mm AP.... then you need to grow up and shut up until you are capable of understanding MATH and LOGIC. nothin in a machine gun caliber is going to equal a 20 mm HE round.... let alone a 20mm AP round. 4 2
-332FG-Hank_DG Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: No the whiny crappers demanding the 50 AP be changed in damage output are REFUSING and DELIBERATELY cherry picking and IGNORING that they have no leg to stand upon when they show SERVER STATISTICS THAT DUPLICATE WHAT HAPPENS IN SINGLE PLAYER AND are delighted to ignore the AP rounds in a mixed belt containing HE and AP from german and soviet machine guns. and claim that its WRONG that 59 rounds of AP should be as powerful as 32 rounds of HE from a Hispano TWENTY MM cannon. You freaking morons,,,, I thought that someone ELSE would note that massive problems in those server statistics.... but hey, when the cherry picked data is being used to lie or cheat your agenda along..... screw it all. To many of you claim the AP needs to be fixed to create REALISM.... well when you demand that 59 rounds of 50 AP needs to duplicate the same damage output to an enemy plane as 32 rounds of 20 mm HE rounds.... let alone 31 rounds of 20 mm AP.... then you need to grow up and shut up until you are capable of understanding MATH and LOGIC. nothin in a machine gun caliber is going to equal a 20 mm HE round.... let alone a 20mm AP round. I have read every single post you have posted in this thread..... I'm quite sure you're trolling? What do you not understand, how can you be sooooo daft? The real question is why are the ammo belts loaded with all AP ammo for the US aircraft (excluding the p38.... don't get your panties in a wad). Are we training? We are literally stuck with an ammo belt used for training lmao. YOU PLAY SINGLEPLAYER, sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about man. Please take the time to read up on the 100 threads before this explaining the issue... and there IS A ISSUE. It's not like everyone is making this up, we're not asking for the 50 cals to rip off wings. We only have AP ammo, not modeled correctly btw. Give us an alternative until we get the API ammo. 1 1
-SF-Disarray Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: No the whiny crappers demanding the 50 AP be changed in damage output are REFUSING and DELIBERATELY cherry picking and IGNORING that they have no leg to stand upon when they show SERVER STATISTICS THAT DUPLICATE WHAT HAPPENS IN SINGLE PLAYER AND are delighted to ignore the AP rounds in a mixed belt containing HE and AP from german and soviet machine guns. and claim that its WRONG that 59 rounds of AP should be as powerful as 32 rounds of HE from a Hispano TWENTY MM cannon. You freaking morons,,,, I thought that someone ELSE would note that massive problems in those server statistics.... but hey, when the cherry picked data is being used to lie or cheat your agenda along..... screw it all. To many of you claim the AP needs to be fixed to create REALISM.... well when you demand that 59 rounds of 50 AP needs to duplicate the same damage output to an enemy plane as 32 rounds of 20 mm HE rounds.... let alone 31 rounds of 20 mm AP.... then you need to grow up and shut up until you are capable of understanding MATH and LOGIC. nothin in a machine gun caliber is going to equal a 20 mm HE round.... let alone a 20mm AP round. I see that I'll have to be very deliberate and spell this out for you. That sortie that I picked above was picked to prove that you are wrong about knowing how many rounds hit a target and even show a break down of what kind of rounds hit the target. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you want to read into it more than that, fine, but I'd suggest you don't do that. If you do you might end up making whatever kind of argument you are right now and look rather silly while doing it. You are the only one making claims about what that specific data shows in terms of weapon effectiveness. You are arguing against yourself and still managing to lose the argument. Bravo. I guess. Look, I was trying to be nice about this but I'm done with that. You are making a stupid argument. You should stop now. All the data shows that HE rounds are doing damage in excess of what the amount of explosive mass would suggest. The AP rounds in the game aren't doing damage in line with what the data, both theoretical and practical, would indicate. The rounds that are called AP in the game are not modeled correctly for being AP rounds. In short: Just shut up and go away. 3
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 29 minutes ago, -332FG-Hank_DG said: I have read every single post you have posted in this thread..... I'm quite sure you're trolling? What do you not understand, how can you be sooooo daft? The real question is why are the ammo belts loaded with all AP ammo for the US aircraft (excluding the p38.... don't get your panties in a wad). Are we training? We are literally stuck with an ammo belt used for training lmao. YOU PLAY SINGLEPLAYER, sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about man. Please take the time to read up on the 100 threads before this explaining the issue... and there IS A ISSUE. It's not like everyone is making this up, we're not asking for the 50 cals to rip off wings. We only have AP ammo, not modeled correctly btw. Give us an alternative until we get the API ammo. Hispano 20mm Armour Piercing Ammunition (wwiiequipment.com) Hispano-Suiza HS.404 - Wikipedia although technically we COULD have one of the early semi rare airacobras armed with 20mm hispanos. even compared to the Water Town tests AP of ANY TYPE fails in the comparison test to HE, its just how the world works. Its why the british essentially skipped forward to 20 mm canons. And in your maths not a single one has focused in on the fact that most seem to skip to the long barrel infantry model to spout forth with their frantic mantra of "fix the 50 ap". thus most of your arguments are literally comparing apples to oranges, or in this case : im a whiney 19 year old who doesnt understand why my 3" snub nose in 22 lr isnt giving the same velocity and penetration that my neighbor gets with a 18" barrelled 22lr rifle"
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) You're rather incoherent at the moment. Understand you're speaking to people who have significantly more experience and skill in the sim and they do know what they're talking about. You're clearly arguing in bad faith and getting incredibly emotionally attached to keeping the way things are which in the face of all the evidence is quite simply an incorrect simulation of these aircraft. Yes, fixing AP helps everyone, it is a literal net benefit to all aircraft in the sim. It just so happens that planes with more AP than HE would benefit more. I sure as shit would love my 190s MG17s to be more than just dead weight. Hell the E7 is one of the worst off in this regard because it has a tiny amount of cannon available, don't you want to be able to keep fighting after expending all the 20mm? Or hell be able to use the MGs instead of the cannons when you don't need the big rounds? Everyone wins here. Edited July 5, 2021 by =RS=EnvyC
BCI-Nazgul Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: Hispano 20mm Armour Piercing Ammunition (wwiiequipment.com) Hispano-Suiza HS.404 - Wikipedia although technically we COULD have one of the early semi rare airacobras armed with 20mm hispanos. even compared to the Water Town tests AP of ANY TYPE fails in the comparison test to HE, its just how the world works. Its why the british essentially skipped forward to 20 mm canons. And in your maths not a single one has focused in on the fact that most seem to skip to the long barrel infantry model to spout forth with their frantic mantra of "fix the 50 ap". thus most of your arguments are literally comparing apples to oranges, or in this case : im a whiney 19 year old who doesnt understand why my 3" snub nose in 22 lr isnt giving the same velocity and penetration that my neighbor gets with a 18" barrelled 22lr rifle" You need to step back and get out of your one track thinking. Not a single person here thinks that a .50 AP is as good as 20mm AP or that 20mm HE isn't better than .50 AP (or .50 HE/API for that matter.) What we think is that DOZENS of .50 AP hits (or other AP calibers for that matter) should be at least a good as a ONE OR TWO 20mm HE hits in shooting down planes. We're not shooting at tanks where the armor will completely stop all rounds below a certain kinetic energy everywhere on the vehicle. There are a ton of spots on planes that won't even stop a .22 round. In fact, nearly all planes have markings in certain areas to tell you where you can and can't step to prevent damage to the skin. That's how fragile they are. Sure some places are armored, but it's not everywhere and most of them certainly can't stop a .50 AP round, so numbers of hits do matter. Is that really so hard for you? What if your "neighbor" had eight guys firing their snub nose pistols at you while you had your one rifle? Would you still think you were better off? Edited July 5, 2021 by BCI-Nazgul 1
-332FG-Hank_DG Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 But still why are we not complaining that we only have AP ammo in our belts for the p51-D.... like what??? I want AP to be modeled correctly, yes, but more importantly we need an ammo belt that's not something that was used for TRAINING. 46 minutes ago, pocketshaver said: Hispano 20mm Armour Piercing Ammunition (wwiiequipment.com) Hispano-Suiza HS.404 - Wikipedia although technically we COULD have one of the early semi rare airacobras armed with 20mm hispanos. even compared to the Water Town tests AP of ANY TYPE fails in the comparison test to HE, its just how the world works. Its why the british essentially skipped forward to 20 mm canons. And in your maths not a single one has focused in on the fact that most seem to skip to the long barrel infantry model to spout forth with their frantic mantra of "fix the 50 ap". thus most of your arguments are literally comparing apples to oranges, or in this case : im a whiney 19 year old who doesnt understand why my 3" snub nose in 22 lr isnt giving the same velocity and penetration that my neighbor gets with a 18" barrelled 22lr rifle" HAHAHA.... Not once did I or anybody in here say the 50 cal AP ammo should be just as effective as HE ammo, get the hell out of here dude. You're clearly not all there, stop lying and putting words into peoples mouths. Your assumptions are laughable. It's people like you that cause threads to get locked, stirring up crap that you have no idea about. You should come fly with me in multiplayer and I'll try to make you understand, for real, DM me.
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, -332FG-Hank_DG said: But still why are we not complaining that we only have AP ammo in our belts for the p51-D.... like what??? I want AP to be modeled correctly, yes, but more importantly we need an ammo belt that's not something that was used for TRAINING. you want more then AP in the belt? send a letter to your congress man. Or just get blitz and alter the belt all you want
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, -332FG-Hank_DG said: But still why are we not complaining that we only have AP ammo in our belts for the p51-D.... like what??? I want AP to be modeled correctly, yes, but more importantly we need an ammo belt that's not something that was used for TRAINING. I mean yes, I consider that a seperate issue given all planes have AP rounds and all AP rounds are underperforming. APIT of course is the cherry on top but one discussion at a time. Certainly the Browning .303s of the Hurricane could use a buff to actually be useful. Sure they were the best thing out in BoB but they weren't anywhere near as worthless as the sim makes it out to be.
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, BCI-Nazgul said: You need to step back and get out of your one track thinking. Not a single person here thinks that a .50 AP is as good as 20mm AP or that 20mm HE isn't better than .50 AP (or .50 HE/API for that matter.) What we think is that DOZENS of .50 AP hits (or other AP calibers for that matter) should be at least a good as a ONE OR TWO 20mm HE hits in shooting down planes. We're not shooting at tanks where the armor will completely stop all rounds below a certain kinetic energy everywhere on the vehicle. There are a ton of spots on planes that won't even stop a .22 round. In fact, nearly all planes have markings in certain areas to tell you where you can and can't step to prevent damage to the skin. That's how fragile they are. Sure some places are armored, but it's not everywhere and most of them certainly can't stop a .50 AP round, so numbers of hits do matter. Is that really so hard for you? What if your "neighbor" had eight guys firing their snub nose pistols at you while you had your one rifle? Would you still think you were better off? to many on this thread want the 50 AP to work like a 20mm HE round, that one bit of server statistics, the genius was trying to pawn off that 31 hits of 20mm HE and 32 rounds of 20mm AP should NOT be more powerful then 59 rounds of 50 cal AP on downing aircraft. Thats called hubris, even idiocy in most circles. Whats next, a discussion to create a game mode where no one can shoot you? How about this, if they WANT the big fancy mod for AP lets do these things first. 1. re program the servers to ignore ANY plane shot down within 7 KM of a spawn point. And deny the kill or assist to the shooters kill stats. 2. have the server system go back to their oldest files and remove any kill or assisted kill made within 7km of a spawn point 3. do something USEFUL that will help everyone 1. break the game controls apart by plane and land vehicle. Even the outdated blitz can do that. 2. 1
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) How many times do we have to tell you. We. Do. Not. Want. A. Single. .50. To. Be. As. Good. As. A. Single. 20mm. Your comprehension skills are rather lacking to the point of intentional. Edit: I am curious as to why the mods are letting this individual throw insults around at everyone, calling them idiots in the face of compelling evidence and civil discussion and hasn't been at least warned. Edited July 5, 2021 by =RS=EnvyC
BCI-Nazgul Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 1 minute ago, pocketshaver said: to many on this thread want the 50 AP to work like a 20mm HE round, that one bit of server statistics, the genius was trying to pawn off that 31 hits of 20mm HE and 32 rounds of 20mm AP should NOT be more powerful then 59 rounds of 50 cal AP on downing aircraft. Thats called hubris, even idiocy in most circles. Whats next, a discussion to create a game mode whe re no one can shoot you? How about this, if they WANT the big fancy mod for AP lets do these things first. 1. re program the servers to ignore ANY plane shot down within 7 KM of a spawn point. And deny the kill or assist to the shooters kill stats. 2. have the server system go back to their oldest files and remove any kill or assisted kill made within 7km of a spawn point 3. do something USEFUL that will help everyone 1. break the game controls apart by plane and land vehicle. Even the outdated blitz can do that. 2. Wow, just wow...have you read a single thing on here? You're just drifting into deep space now. I can't even figure out what you're talking about in 50% of this post. By the way, Combat Box kicks you off the server the instant you damage a plane within 10 km of an active enemy base. 1
-332FG-Magic_Zach Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 7 hours ago, pocketshaver said: this is pretty damn consistent with what happens in SINGLE PLAYER to kill something... NOT sure what the two planes from the first box of data were fighting, but i have found that when flying a P-40 and using the mighty 50s.... and AIMING..... It can easily take 50-70 rounds to take an engine on a B25 or A-20B out. It may not turn into a fire ball but it will create a 4 km long smoke trail i can see from 10 km. TWO engines in that same condition will give the plane in question perhaps 10 minutes of flight time before i see parachutes in the air. Instant kill? no, but it IS a kill. The issue that I see with the top box of data for 50 BMG AP versus Hispano 20mm is this. Are you making your argument/defense of view point based solely by cherry picking 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 32 rounds of Hispano AP or against 21 rounds of Hispano HE ammunition Or are you simply going with SCIENTIFIC fact and going "This data supports my dispute as it should NOT take 59 rounds of 50 AP to down a plane when an english plane armed with a hispano 20mm firing a HE/AP mix needed 53 rounds to kill a plane?" and as their is no option that i have seen that lets you limit the hispano to a single cartridge, ie he or ap only.... only excrement would compare 59 rounds of 50 AP versus 21 rounds of HE Hispano 20mm and completely toss out 32 rounds of AP being slammed on target. And as ALWAYS no one will say WHAT was hit. yeah, its impressive to blow the wing off a 109 in videos, but that takes alot more shots to do then simply blowing the cockpit to hell. If the AI can fire a single round of 50 AP at me when im in a plane, and it takes my engine, oil, coolant, fuel out. Why cant anyone online do the same thing Shut up please and thanks, Happy 4th (if you're in the US)
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 t is difficult to assess the effectiveness of different ammunition types, but various tests suggest that a typical World War Two-era HE or incendiary shell, with chemical contents forming about 10 per cent of total shell weight, was about twice as destructive as a plain steel shell of similar size and weight. This makes it clear that 20 mm cannon were considerably more destructive for a given total weight of armament than any HMG could hope to be. For example, the .50 M8 API contained less than one gram of incendiary, whereas the 20 mm Hispano SAPI achieved similar armour penetration but carried more than ten times as much incendiary material. This advantage was recognised by the US Navy. After comparing the .50 M2 and the 20 mm Hispano they estimated that the cannon was three times as effective. In other words, the fairly typical late-war RAF armament of four 20 mm cannon was twice as destructive as the USAAF’s six .50 HMGs, for very little more weight. Proponents of the Browning HMG point to its excellent ballistics, which enhanced its range and hit probability. But the Hispano’s muzzle velocity was very similar, and although the blunt-nosed shells were less aerodynamic the difference over typical air-combat ranges was not significant. The cannon’s advantages are clearly shown in the decisions made as a result of combat experience by air forces with a choice of good HMGs and cannon. We have already seen how Germany preferred the 20 mm version of the MG 151 despite its poorer ballistics. In the 12.7 mm Berezin the Soviets had arguably the best HMG of the war, but they still preferred the heavier, slower-firing 20 mm ShVAK. Japan had several good HMGs available; the army’s Ho-103, and the navy’s 13 mm Type 3, a .50 Browning chambered for slightly larger-calibre ammunition, but they made increasing use of cannon. So why did the Americans not make more use of cannon, specifically the 20 mm Hispano they already had in mass production? There were two main reasons. One was certainly that the M2 was adequate for its purpose. In Western Europe the main adversaries were fighters, which were much easier to damage and shoot down than bombers. In the Pacific Theatre the Japanese aircraft were initially poorly protected and easy to shoot down. Later Japanese aircraft were better protected, but again these were usually fighters. If the Americans had faced the need to stop raids by heavy, well-protected bombers, it is likely that the HMG’s shortcomings would have been starkly revealed. Cannon or Machine Gun? – The Second World War Aircraft Gun Controversy — Variants & Technology | history | Reference (spitfiresite.com) just read the link material, and then look at that genius post comparing 59 rounds of 50 cal AP versus 53 rounds of ap/he mix from a hispano 20mm. Wont EVER be equal, as in theory that load is more then enough needed to down any plane flying in the game as it stands. Wanting to change the damage model to make Ap as powerful is a phony scam that is a mere means for online flyers to alter the game to suit their intent of raking in the kill rate. Compare number of people who actually use the multi player option against the number of game installations.
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 No one's said 54 .50s should be as good as 54 20mm you absolute potato. 2 1
-332FG-Buddy Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 Stop responding to him, he is obviously wanting attention and or trolling. I agree with all your assessments, other then this pocketshaver troll, my question to you all is how do we get the devs to even consider looking into this? If my memory serves correct it took a very long time for other issues in this game and the devs don't seem to ha e patience for anyone that questions their product... So instead of us spinning our wheels in this informative debate , excluding pocketshaver of course, what can we do together to to get the attention of the devs... 1
=RS=EnvyC Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, -332FG-Buddy said: Stop responding to him, he is obviously wanting attention and or trolling. I agree with all your assessments, other then this pocketshaver troll, my question to you all is how do we get the devs to even consider looking into this? If my memory serves correct it took a very long time for other issues in this game and the devs don't seem to ha e patience for anyone that questions their product... So instead of us spinning our wheels in this informative debate , excluding pocketshaver of course, what can we do together to to get the attention of the devs... Honestly no idea, last correspondence was Han literally telling us to "Please stop", then posted Japanese 20mm hits as MG131 hits and Browning .303s as .50s. Then he shared a video that proved their own position as untenable as the .50 absolutely wrecked havoc on the target. 1
Angry_Kitten Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, =RS=EnvyC said: No one's said 54 .50s should be as good as 54 20mm you absolute potato. , that post you "potato head", the poster is trying to use the 59 rounds of 50 AP fired at a target plane being PROOF that the AP model is "shit" when compared to 32 rounds of 20mm AP and 21 rounds of 20mm HE on a plane. Now the THING not mentioned is that this COULD be the actual loadout of a single british plane flying against a single target. I havent tinkered with most of the individual loadouts for allied planes, but i do believe two of the british fighters have that option as a load out. SO even as a mustang or p47 or p40 or p39 needing 59 hits of 50 AP to down a plane in MULTIPLAYER versus 32 AP and 21 HE form the hispano to down a plane... Is absolute cherry picking of the highest order. To feel that that comparison quantifies a disparity that mandates a change to the AP performance tables in game,, is sheer insanity. 1. if you disregard the fact that the hispano HE and AP rounds are fired at the same time, and hit the same target, you would have to have some magic balls or magic wand to disregard the effect of the hispano AP on the target plane. 2. If you feel that 59 rounds of 50 AP should equal 21 rounds of 20mm HE, your butler may be the red queen.. and your maid the Mad Hatter and your doorman may be tweedle dee. using the data that indicated 20 mm HE was at least 3 times as effective as heavy machine guns,,, it should only take 2.8 rounds of HE 20mm to down a plane so perhaps the HE mod is too weak based on tasty data.... 3. If you feel 59 rounds of 50 AP should equal32 rounds of 20mm AP you may have a point as one of the pages i linked to shows ballistics data that is AWFUL CLOSE to the 50 ap tests by watertown aresenal from certain angles but from MOST angles, the 20mm AP was penetrating 2 to 3 times the thickness of hardened steel plate that the 50 AP or API was capable of doing. 4. the fact the poster stated it was from ONE SORTIE,, i believe the hit ratio actually indicates the 59 rounds of 50 AP, 21 rounds of 20mm HE and 31 rounds of 20mm were fired by the one plane, against ONE PLANE. making the tasty data, just more tasty mashed potato as one could NEVER prove what killed the plane that was shot down. meaning... guy fires 59 rounds into the rear gunner of an IL-2, then finishes it off with a 60 round burst into the cockpit or engine based upon he/ap belt mix..
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