Original_Uwe Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Gunther Rall would suggest substantially the same thing, Viking. Rall trained 109 pilots to fight the P-51, while flying a captured example. Rall stated that the P-51 was best, when asked to compare all the fighters he had the opportunity to fly. Some persons seem to love to throw out the idea that the Mustang was somewhat inferior to Axis piston fighters and won through shear numbers. Rall does not seem to share this view and he was one of the most accomplished By-109 air aces. You can quote whatever facts and figures you wish. All the academic arguments in the World didn't sway Rall' s mind. Finally ... the voice of reason!!! Rall can say what he wants-but he lost his thumb to the 56th's Thunderbolts. Jug or bust.
Finkeren Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Anything with a " P " in front of the numbers is preferential. You're right. I also really want a Po-2.
MrHyde Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 What would be fun at least for the P-38 ,would be a battle of the twin engine fighters. The 110 vs. P-38, except the 110 would need an escort For a battle with the P-38 i change my choice to the german two turbine Figther , but for this scenario I stand by my choice for the 110.
Frequent_Flyer Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 For a battle with the P-38 i change my choice to the german two turbine Figther , but for this scenario I stand by my choice for the 110. Still need a FW-190D escort for your 262, Oh well pick another.
Frequent_Flyer Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Gunther Rall would suggest substantially the same thing, Viking. Rall trained 109 pilots to fight the P-51, while flying a captured example. Rall stated that the P-51 was best, when asked to compare all the fighters he had the opportunity to fly. Some persons seem to love to throw out the idea that the Mustang was somewhat inferior to Axis piston fighters and won through shear numbers. Rall does not seem to share this view and he was one of the most accomplished By-109 air aces. You can quote whatever facts and figures you wish. All the academic arguments in the World didn't sway Rall' s mind. 69.GIAP, If you want to hear more unbiased comments regarding the superiority of the P-51. Read what the polish pilots remarks had to say. The same pilot flew their own aircraft along with French, British and US including the P-40,P-47 and P-51 . "The P-51 was the best fighter of WW II , with the Jug as runner up". This coming from pilots who were the first to shoot down a Luftwaffe aircraft in WW II. In fact, the 303 squadron ( Polish) achieved top score ( most confirmed victories) over any RAF squadron in the Battle of Britain. Imagine if the were allowed to participate in the first half of BOB.
Gambit21 Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 "Take a picture for your girlfriend with you next to a P51 - Come home to her in a Jug" As the saying went more or less - sums it up really. The Mustang pilots from the 352nd whom I've interviewed for a book project wanted their Jugs back when it was time to strafe ground targets in the days prior to the invasion, and also missed their Jugs when going head to head against 109's in their P51B models, and some still felt that way after they upgraded to D models. The Mustang was fast, but more fragile than the Jug and had less firepower. Long range escort - Mustang wins, but again that's the only category you can say that and not get a valid argument. The best piston fighter aircraft of the war could very well have been the TA 152, at least on the German end if testimonies from certain German pilots are any indication. Bottom line, pilots and everything else being equal, it's a wash between a the later war German and Allied AC. Just depends on what your criteria are, change the criteria and the "Best" plane changes with it. Cheers
BSS_Mudcat Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Instead of naming them, just pretty much everything that would have been at Guadalcanal, which as far as expansions go would be nice since it took place at exactly the same time as BoS , Give or take a week or two on each end. 1
VR-DriftaholiC Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Its not even on my top 10 list but with this new FM I would like to see how the P-39 handles with its mid engine
MrHyde Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Still need a FW-190D escort for your 262, Oh well pick another. Even if I can practice from the 5th August with the 190D, for a late scenario I wish the 262. Let's hope that we have in the near future the possibility to fly these duels.
Frequent_Flyer Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Even if I can practice from the 5th August with the 190D, for a late scenario I wish the 262. Let's hope that we have in the near future the possibility to fly these duels. I completely agree , here's hoping we have the appropriate map to dual on as well.
Frequent_Flyer Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 "Take a picture for your girlfriend with you next to a P51 - Come home to her in a Jug" As the saying went more or less - sums it up really. The Mustang pilots from the 352nd whom I've interviewed for a book project wanted their Jugs back when it was time to strafe ground targets in the days prior to the invasion, and also missed their Jugs when going head to head against 109's in their P51B models, and some still felt that way after they upgraded to D models. The Mustang was fast, but more fragile than the Jug and had less firepower. Long range escort - Mustang wins, but again that's the only category you can say that and not get a valid argument. The best piston fighter aircraft of the war could very well have been the TA 152, at least on the German end if testimonies from certain German pilots are any indication. Bottom line, pilots and everything else being equal, it's a wash between a the later war German and Allied AC. Just depends on what your criteria are, change the criteria and the "Best" plane changes with it. Cheers The three most important reasons why the P-51 was the best fighter aircraft in the ETO and the Possible the PTO was Speed, range and it was produced in significant and impactful numbers. Because it was the fastest piston engine aircraft of the war it could engage and disengage at will and dictate the terms of the engagement. In addition it could out dive any of its adversaries. Also, it had a better zoom climb rate much more meaningful in an enemy engagement. High altitude performance was unmatched except by its own stablemate the P-47. Although the BMW engine the FW-190 used was a copy of an American design.The goofball Germans could never figure out how get the high altitude performance from it. So, they had to install an inline engine at the very end of the war to address this issue. Meanwhile they were stuck with an inefficient obsolete airframe in the 109 with poor high speed handling. To keep up,litererly they had to make it faster by adding lumps and bumps to cowling and wings only to see the handling characteristics degrade further at high speed .Resulting in the " Lawn Dart" phenomenon when trying to keep up with the 51,47 or 38 in a dive. However, they had to keep it around because of the poor performance of the FW at the altitude of the USAAC bomber stream. Regarding range, consider this if either the 109 or the Spitfire had any imagine the impact it would of had on the Battle of Britian, and therefore the remainder of the war in the ETO. What truly is amazing about the P-51 is it was nearly double the loaded weight of the Spitfire and yet with the exact same ( nearly the Packard improved the Merlin) engine the P-51 was 50 + MPH faster and had 3 to 4 times the range. The reason the Spit units were being replaced by P-51's. All this went from drawing board to reality in 120 days. How many years was the 109 ,190 and Spit in development. The possible better aircraft was the Corsair, because it did something the P-51, 109,190 never did it flew from carriers.
TJT Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 How about dropping the best plan argumentations and sticking to the topic guys? On topic: I.A.R. 80/81
ShamrockOneFive Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 How about dropping the best plan argumentations and sticking to the topic guys? On topic: I.A.R. 80/81 Best plane.... Po-2 :D
Jaws2002 Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 If there's one thing I didn't miss, it's the "Pee fifty one won the war" arguments..... 1
Praetor Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Spit IX Later version 109s (G-14) Later version 190s P47N/M Typhoon The P51 is too "Late War" for me. I would LOOOOOVE the B17 or B24 done properly to the DCS level.
Gambit21 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 The P51 is too "Late War" for me. That's a bit ironic considering your list.
migmadmarine Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Hell, in this map and engine, I would love to fly the Fieseler Storch and the polikarpov po-2. (Similar reasons to why I salivate over the idea of a Korea sim in this engine, and being able to fly a bird dog to direct players onto targets via TS)
Praetor Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 That's a bit ironic considering your list. Why? They're all 1943ish. Well, except for G14.
ShamrockOneFive Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Why? They're all 1943ish. Well, except for G14. The Mustang Mark I was into battle earlier in 1942 with a couple dozen RAF squadrons. By December 1943 the USAAF was operating P-51B in the European theatre but that also ignores the P-51A and A-36 operations in the North Africa campaign during April 1943. It's a very odd thing to say that the Mustang is a late war aircraft and then list a selection of aircraft that either appeared at the same time or later. For example the P-47N entered into combat service in 1945. The P-47M (a limited production run) only scored kills with the 56th FG in late 44 and early 1945. Edited July 6, 2014 by ShamrockOneFive
Praetor Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody is thinking 51B when they're talking about Mustangs.
Gambit21 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody is thinking 51B when they're talking about Mustangs. Speak for yourself.
Finkeren Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody is thinking 51B when they're talking about Mustangs. Say what? The Bs and Cs are far more interesting than the Ds and Ks due to their being introduced at a much more crucial time.
LLv44_Mprhead Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody is thinking 51B when they're talking about Mustangs. Well, I guess that makes me nobody then
Praetor Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Oh come on. When you hear Mustangs, you think of the D.
bivalov Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 when personally i hear mustang, i think about plane with allison somewhere on north of russia, in 3 GIAP...
BlitzPig_EL Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 I always think of the B and C as they were the ones that did most of the hard work early on, and were 20mph faster than the D. Also have a soft spot for the Allison engined versions because they were the first Mustangs operated in the CBI theater.
ShamrockOneFive Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody is thinking 51B when they're talking about Mustangs. When someone says Mustang I think of the whole lineage. Just like the rest of the aircraft that lasted most of the war. And even the D was a early-mid 1944 edition. It's hardly late war... or some sort of exotic thing like the P-51H :D
TJT Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Oh, and I'd like a Bf 110 and a P-40 and P-39. P-39 was my first assigned event plane back in 1999 in Warbirds New Guinea '43 event. Flew around with others without spotting enemys but had an awesome time. The suspense and tension of it all.
Georgio Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 When I think early Mustang, I think of a donkey until they stuck a decent merlin in it, then it became a Mustang...
PantsPilot Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 Sticking to Stalingrad era: VVS: Yak-7, P-39, il-4, Yak 1B Luft: Bf-110, Ju-52, Ju-88, Hs-129 Anytime, any place, I'd love to see a griffon-engine Spitfire X1V done for the very first time. This superb fighter was the best piston-engine fighter of WW11 and ate any piston Luftwaffe fighter for lunch, also got the first me-262 kill. Was unaccountably left out of il-2 1946, probably because it would have given the RAF air supremacy and the makers didn't want that, hence the lack of the Meteor jet too.
TJT Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Anytime, any place, I'd love to see a griffon-engine Spitfire X1V done for the very first time. This superb fighter was the best piston-engine fighter of WW11 and ate any piston Luftwaffe fighter for lunch, also got the first me-262 kill. Was unaccountably left out of il-2 1946, probably because it would have given the RAF air supremacy and the makers didn't want that, hence the lack of the Meteor jet too. You can find a Spitfire XIV here --> http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Spitfire_Mk_XIV European Air War had that version too at release so the "for the first time" remark is a fair bit off the mark. Edited July 12, 2014 by TJT
TheGovernment Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 VVS lend lease P-39's. The greatest soviet ace Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin flew the P-39 over Soviet Laggs, La-5, Yaks, and even the La-7, only switching his P-39 for a P-63 near the end of the war. He liked the p-39 especially for the superior firepower of the 37mm and the manouverability.
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