Is Hs129 15mm Ammo Correct?

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

Should the Hs129 have a special type of 15mm AP ammo and be able to run AP-only ammo in the MG151/15? From what I understand, a special 15mm munition was reserved almost specifically for the Hs129 for use against armored targets. It was NOT loaded in MG151/15 equipped fighters like the 109F2. Theoretically, this 15mm ammo should be able to wipe out a T34 from multiple angles, especially at the top/rear of the hull above the engine? Does anyone else have any info on this cartridge?

[Juri_JS]

You are right, some Hs-129 used MG151/15 with a special AP ammo. Under ideal test conditions it was able to penetrate somewhere between 40 and 50 mm armour, but apparently it wasn't possible to achieve similar results in combat missions. In reality destroying a T-34 with MG151/15 AP rounds would be very difficult. Though I guess it was rather effective against light tanks.

 

 

[Angry_Kitten]

well the standard 15mm on german fighters feels more like a handicap than anything else.

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

18 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

You are right, some Hs-129 used MG151/15 with a special AP ammo. Under ideal test conditions it was able to penetrate somewhere between 40 and 50 mm armour, but apparently it wasn't possible to achieve similar results in combat missions. In reality destroying a T-34 with MG151/15 AP rounds would be very difficult. Though I guess it was rather effective against light tanks.

 

 

 

I can see it being difficult to penetrate from sides or at turret, but top of hull behind turret is only 20mm of armour. Chart shows penetration of 20mm of 160kg/mm2 plate at 50 degrees from 100m. This is relatively easy to do in game with the 129 - in fact, its how I approach almost every tank when hunting them in 129. 

 

As far as light tanks go, there is a suggestion that I plan to make to the devs shortly - identify tanks as light/medium/heavy based on their armour instead of armament. An example of what I see as a discrepancy is the Panzer III-H and the T70. The T70 is shown in game as a light tank, but has 45mm armour on hull front and sides, 60mm on turret front, and 35mm on turret sides and rear. On the other hand, the Panzer III-H has only 30mm all around but is classified as medium tank. The III-H did have provision for bolt on armour, but does this move it from a description of light to medium tank?

Edited June 7, 2021 by II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson

[BlitzPig_EL]

When introduced the P III was indeed a medium.  Tanks are classed by overall weight not armor thickness, though some countries were very confused about this (I'm looking at you Japan).  Tanks that Japan called "medium" would be light by every other nation that fielded tanks.  They did the same thing with aircraft guns, they called .50 machine guns cannons.

[Avimimus]

Also... the concepts of light, medium, and heavy tanks (all replaced by main battle tanks) is pretty misleading...

 

From what I gather there were a lot of light interwar tanks with only machine-guns for armament (partly a result of affordability during the great depression I suspect). Most light tanks fall into this category - although some were up-gunned to 20mm or 37mm.

 

Then there were tanks designed to advance slowly and take on strong-points (using heavy armour for protection while doing so). Infantry Tanks like the Matilda and Churchill are examples, as well as the Soviet KV-1 and the heavier French tanks.

 

Then there were tanks designed with a mixture of speed or range, intended to operate independently and exploit a break-out. These include the English Cruiser tank series, the French cruiser tanks, and the BT series in the Soviet Union.

 

For the most part what we think of as the true heavy tanks or super-heavy tanks (Tiger, IS-1/IS-2/IS-3) are late war developments or early Cold War developments resulting from the overall race between main guns and armour... but I don't think they really fit that well into the thinking of the first half of the war. It is also worth noting that the Germans are outliers in the sense that their infantry support tanks (Panzer IV) weren't heavily armoured and were more focused on supporting other armoured formations, with StuG assault guns being their other solution to infantry support (again, without the exceptionally thick armour).

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Also... the concepts of light, medium, and heavy tanks (all replaced by main battle tanks) is pretty misleading...

 

From what I gather there were a lot of light interwar tanks with only machine-guns for armament (partly a result of affordability during the great depression I suspect). Most light tanks fall into this category - although some were up-gunned to 20mm or 37mm.

 

Then there were tanks designed to advance slowly and take on strong-points (using heavy armour for protection while doing so). Infantry Tanks like the Matilda and Churchill are examples, as well as the Soviet KV-1 and the heavier French tanks.

 

Then there were tanks designed with a mixture of speed or range, intended to operate independently and exploit a break-out. These include the English Cruiser tank series, the French cruiser tanks, and the BT series in the Soviet Union.

 

For the most part what we think of as the true heavy tanks or super-heavy tanks (Tiger, IS-1/IS-2/IS-3) are late war developments or early Cold War developments resulting from the overall race between main guns and armour... but I don't think they really fit that well into the thinking of the first half of the war. It is also worth noting that the Germans are outliers in the sense that their infantry support tanks (Panzer IV) weren't heavily armoured and were more focused on supporting other armoured formations, with StuG assault guns being their other solution to infantry support (again, without the exceptionally thick armour).

 

I enjoyed your commentary. It reminds me also, I believe German assault guns are also labelled in game and points are assigned to them as medium tanks.

 

I would really like to see the main point of this thread realized, as it would be historically realistic to have the Hs129 have its special cannon loadout. It would also give the aircraft capability that it really had to destroy armoured vehicles in the earlier dates before it received the big iron as a weapon mod.

 

Being that this is a collector plane and people have for the most part paid extra for the aircraft, I feel like this should become something the devs could work on. I don't believe it would take too much effort as it would likely just involve a velocity increase for the Hs129's MG151/15 and a change of the loadout to AP only.

Edited June 8, 2021 by II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson

[=FEW=fernando11]

On the topic of light, medium and heavy tanks...

First of all, look out for Military History Visualized on YouTube, he has some excelent videos about it.

 

But, from memory... the Germans clasify their tanks as light, medium and heavy by their intended role, not by exact overall weight. Thats why you get the panzer V panther designated as medium tank, (a mid-late war tank meant to replace the panzer III medium tank) being as heavy as,or heavier than the USSR KV heavy tank.

 

Also the panzer VI Tiger, a heavy "breakthrough" tank, designed for a very specific role, it wasnt heavy just becasue of weight creap as the war progresed, it started development earlier on the war (1941?). When the panzer III was the main tank vs tank, and the panzer IV still had the short 75mm gun.

 

Also I think the panzer III H had moret than 30mm of armor. I think it had 30+20 or even homogenous 50mm. And even so, it was designated as medium tank way earlier, before the start of the war, when its armour, and 37mm anti tank gun where considered adecuate for its job, thats why its a  medium tank. 

And it's logical that the Stug III being derived from a medium tank, be aslo clasify as medium.

And about the panzer IV as a infantry suport tank, without being super heavy and overly armoured, I think it too was armoured enough to do its job at the start of the war, but the Germans keept its tactical and strategic mobilitly and choose to up gun more than up armour it.

 

 

All in all, Im not saying that the german tanks where good or better than others, but I do think that their clasification as light medium and heavy makes sence when looked from their own way

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

23 hours ago, =FEW=fernando11 said:

On the topic of light, medium and heavy tanks...

First of all, look out for Military History Visualized on YouTube, he has some excelent videos about it.

 

But, from memory... the Germans clasify their tanks as light, medium and heavy by their intended role, not by exact overall weight. Thats why you get the panzer V panther designated as medium tank, (a mid-late war tank meant to replace the panzer III medium tank) being as heavy as,or heavier than the USSR KV heavy tank.

 

Also the panzer VI Tiger, a heavy "breakthrough" tank, designed for a very specific role, it wasnt heavy just becasue of weight creap as the war progresed, it started development earlier on the war (1941?). When the panzer III was the main tank vs tank, and the panzer IV still had the short 75mm gun.

 

Also I think the panzer III H had moret than 30mm of armor. I think it had 30+20 or even homogenous 50mm. And even so, it was designated as medium tank way earlier, before the start of the war, when its armour, and 37mm anti tank gun where considered adecuate for its job, thats why its a  medium tank. 

And it's logical that the Stug III being derived from a medium tank, be aslo clasify as medium.

And about the panzer IV as a infantry suport tank, without being super heavy and overly armoured, I think it too was armoured enough to do its job at the start of the war, but the Germans keept its tactical and strategic mobilitly and choose to up gun more than up armour it.

 

 

All in all, Im not saying that the german tanks where good or better than others, but I do think that their clasification as light medium and heavy makes sence when looked from their own way

 

I do enjoy the commentary referencing tank labeling and nomenclature, however my main concern is whether or not the Hs129 MG151/15 projectiles are performing to their theoretical capability with respect to the data above? I don't expect that the 15mm AP from the 129 should be able to easily destroy T34s, I just think it should be a possibility if done correctly - for example from very close range against thinner armour portions such as the top of engine bay at back of hull. 

[Juri_JS]

2 hours ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

 

I do enjoy the commentary referencing tank labeling and nomenclature, however my main concern is whether or not the Hs129 MG151/15 projectiles are performing to their theoretical capability with respect to the data above? I don't expect that the 15mm AP from the 129 should be able to easily destroy T34s, I just think it should be a possibility if done correctly - for example from very close range against thinner armour portions such as the top of engine bay at back of hull. 

I've tried to destroy T-34s with the MG151/15 we have in the game, but without success. The MG151/15 is apparently only firing normal AP rounds. The specialized AP round you've mentioned consisted of a light alloy body, a tungsten carbide armour-piercing core and a nose section filled with an incendiary composition. A similar round also existed for the MG151/20 used by the Hs-129.

 

 

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

On 6/9/2021 at 6:37 AM, Juri_JS said:

I've tried to destroy T-34s with the MG151/15 we have in the game, but without success. The MG151/15 is apparently only firing normal AP rounds. The specialized AP round you've mentioned consisted of a light alloy body, a tungsten carbide armour-piercing core and a nose section filled with an incendiary composition. A similar round also existed for the MG151/20 used by the Hs-129.

 

 

 

Yes. On this note, I don't think it would be inappropriate or very time time consuming for the team to allow Hs129 selection of AP only belt for the MG151/15 and also tweak penetration and velocity values for that belt only for Hs129.